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1st time homeowner and need to replace HVAC. Advice?

theclose
10 years ago

I have been doing a lot of research on this forum and I appreciate all the info. I am in the process of getting quotes for new A/C and furnace, as the one in our new home is not working properly anymore. We thought we might have a year or two but oh well (the unit is over 15 years old).

Stats on home:
Location: NYC suburb
Center Hall Colonial
2400 sf
Current A/C: York 4 ton with a 5 ton coil (for some reason)
Current furnace: 130,000 BTU

I just received my first quote (others to follow tomorrow and Thursday). This dealer generally installs York/Luxaire but will quote and install other brands on request (I do have a request in for a quote using Carrier or Trane).

*Climasure/Luxaire 120,000 BTU furnace
Model TG(8,L)S120C20MP11
80% Efficiency
*4-Ton 410A A-Coil
*Luxaire 4-Ton 410A 13 SEER Condenser
Model TCJD48S41S3 (H)(E)
*Aprilaire 400 Humidifier

Cost: $8250 installed

To upgrade to 14.5 SEER Condenser is an additional $1550 - so total of $9800.

Some questions:
1. I know York/Luxaire doesn't get much love on this forum. It seems to be the choice around here, maybe because they are local. Should I insist on Carrier/Trane and pay the upcharge?
2. The one guy that came didn't look at ductwork or anything other than existing components for replacement. Should I be asking for a more detailed assessment?
3. We want this to last. We just moved in and we don't plan on moving again in the near future. This could even be our "forever" home. So, while price is a factor, it isn't the most important factor. Quality and reliability are more important.

Thank you in advance. This is new territory for us and I am nervous about navigating this in the dark!

Comments (69)

  • theclose
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    tiger, thanks so much. I can't adequately express how helpful this has been! A few more questions if you don't mind. Let me know if I am reading this correctly.

    1. You recommend the XV95 furnace, 80K size.
    2. Is a blower the same as a coil? So I should upgrade to the 4 ton coil?
    3. The two stage thermostat you recommended - this would replace our current heating thermostat? We have one stat for heating and one for cooling.

    Lastly, should I press the contractor to quote me the above, even though he keeps saying he would rather the single speed furnace when it comes to my ductwork?

    Thank you!!

  • tigerdunes
    10 years ago

    Blower and evap coil are two different parts of HVAC system.

    Blower refers to blower motor that moves the conditioned air either from the furnace or AC condenser/evap coil.

    The last statement is nonsense and to be disregarded as it is simply not correct.

    If you have no problems with noise and comfort from existing furnace, you shouldn't with a high eff 80 K two stage var speed model.

    IMO

  • theclose
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    Thanks, tiger. Thing is, not sure about noise level of furnace as we only moved in here in April and haven't really run the furnace yet. I vaguely remember it running and not hearing much but not 100% certain.

    I will go back to him and request the above. Will let you know what transpires!

  • harlemhvacguy
    10 years ago

    "He would also have to make sure the equipment would fit properly in the space we have (height-wise). Does this make sense?"

    No that doesn't make sense..... all trane furnaces are the same height and the xv95 100k size is the same width as the 100k XT95 he quoted. but in xv95 the 80k model only does 3 tons also.

    there is a big price difference between xt95 and xv95 though.

  • tigerdunes
    10 years ago

    For Harlem...

    "No that doesn't make sense..... all trane furnaces are the same height and the xv95 100k size is the same width as the 100k XT95 he quoted. but in xv95 the 80k model only does 3 tons also."

    The above statement is not correct. Trane has added a 4 ton rated blower to the XV95 model in an 80 K size. The 3 ton and 4 ton blower sizes are dimensionally the same. See below copied and paste from Trane site.

    TUH2B080A9V3VB 40 17.5 28 49,500/76,000 95 Yes
    TUH2B080A9V4VB 40 17.5 28 49,500/76,000 95 Yes

    As to cost, the upgrade from the XT95 to XV95 should be in the 500-700 buck range. Of oourse depends on dealer markup and if he wants the job or not.

    IMO

  • harlemhvacguy
    10 years ago

    Well I stand corrected. There is a xv95 80k btu model that does has a 4 ton drive blower that will work with 3.5 ton condenser. TUH2B080A9V4 (wasn't in my price list but was in trane product handbook)

  • theclose
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    I just heard back from above Trane dealer. This is his response to me asking about an 80k two stage furnace:
    looked thru the comfort site info for Trane you would have to run a 100 or 120 MBH furnace two stage with a larger coil to make any rebates. The problem is trying to get everything to fit in the space you have. If you want a two stage variable speed furnace you can have it but with a coil and condensing unit to match in 3.5 or 4 ton the ratings are hard to get and you will be in the 100-120 MBH rating. That's why I chose the equipment I did.

    Not sure what he is saying, truthfully. I am still waiting for other Trane quote.

  • harlemhvacguy
    10 years ago

    I see tiger was on top of me before I could correct myself.

    Quick little guy he is.

  • theclose
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    Any thoughts on whether I should just talk to Trane dealer and give him model numbers on what I want? Is that overstepping? His reply above doesn't make sense or makes me believe I care more about rebate than best system for my house.

    Should get other Trane quite today. He says proposal is prepared but he forgot to send it yesterday.

  • mike_home
    10 years ago

    "looked thru the comfort site info for Trane you would have to run a 100 or 120 MBH furnace two stage with a larger coil to make any rebates"

    Do you mean BTU instead of MBH?

    What is the rebate and how much is it?

    It is a bad idea to oversize equipment in order to qualify for a rebate. Most of the rebate money is used to pay for bigger equipment. Bigger equipment will not operate as efficiently and raise operating costs. I would be suspect of any contractor who would propose doing this.

    The rest of his response doesn't make sense. Perhaps others can decipher what he is trying to say.

    Let's see what the other Trane dealer proposes.

  • tigerdunes
    10 years ago

    I would like to see you get a Carrier or Bryant dealer involved with a quote.

    This is where Trane disappoints with systems that qualify for Fed Tax Credit. Oversizing is never good. Not the case with Carrier or Bryant as far as 80 K Infinity/Evolution furnaces and two stage AC.

    While not liking to spec out a new system where I have not surveyed site or application, ask Trane dealer about this system and get his opinion. It does qualify for Tax Credit.

    5996430 Active Systems XR17 TRANE 4TTR7048A1 4TXCD063BC3 1365 1090 *UH2B080A9V4 48500 13.00 17.00 1 RCU-A-CB 345 Yes

    IMO

    This post was edited by tigerdunes on Wed, Aug 28, 13 at 9:26

  • theclose
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    Thanks so much tiger and mike. I will ask about the above system

    Other Trane quote came in. Very high and no model numbers. I asked him to supply models. Once he does I will post.

  • theclose
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    tiger, I have asked the two Trane dealers for thoughts and quotes on the system you referenced. Will see what they say.

    Here are the quotes from Trane #2. He gave three options but I will only post the mid and high, as the low was 13 SEER and I wouldn't take it anyway.

    Mid:
    17+ SEER Single Stage 4 Ton R410 Condensing Unit, XR-17, model 4TTR7048
    Coil TXC, model 4TXCD050
    XR95 95% AFUE Single Stage Furnace, Model TUH120
    New 6 Series Programmable Thermostat.
    Total: $11, 764

    High:
    20 SEER Two Stage 4 Ton R410 Condensing Unit, XL-20i, model 4TTZ0060
    XV95 95% AFUE Two Stage Variable Speed Furnace, Model TUH2D120
    Coil TXC , model 4TXCD009
    New 8 Series Programmable Thermostat.
    Total: $14,719

    And these quotes don't include the sealing of the existing ductwork, the Trane media air filter or a humidifier. I think this guy is out of my league.

    I do have a Bryant guy coming tomorrow. I am just going to lay it on the line as to what I want and see what he thinks. We are sweltering over here and I just need to move on!! But I am so thankful for all your assistance!

  • theclose
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    Also, any specific specs/products I should ask about with the Carrier/Bryant guy? I know the basics that I want, but not any specific Carrier/Bryant lingo other than Infinity/Evolution.

  • tigerdunes
    10 years ago

    With the Bryant, here is what I would suggest

    Evolution Mdl 986T 80K 2 stage var speed 96+% eff furnace
    Evolution AC Mdl 187 2 stage 4 ton
    Or
    Preferred AC Mdl 127 2 stage 4 ton

    Best matching ALA suffix coil for your application

    Evolution controller
    Box filter cabinet

    Must meet Fed Tax Credit standard.

    IMO

    This post was edited by tigerdunes on Thu, Aug 29, 13 at 8:18

  • theclose
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    Thanks, tiger. I really appreciate you taking the time to help. Will post back after Bryant guy leaves.

  • theclose
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    Quick question about the controller. We currently have two separate stats. Do you recommend combining our stats to use the Bryant controller?

  • tigerdunes
    10 years ago

    You have two stats, but only one system?

    You have a zoning control for top floor?

    Post back.

  • theclose
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    One heating stat on first floor and cooling stat on second floor. Pretty common up here, from what I understand, when A/C added after the fact. No zones.

  • tigerdunes
    10 years ago

    Discuss with Bryant dealer.

    Thermostat is best located centrally preferred in an internal hallway away from any supply register.

    IMO

  • theclose
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    Got it. Thanks.

  • tigerdunes
    10 years ago

    Bryant dealer should inspect ductwork system. Any hot/cold spots in home should be pointed out and recommendations for improvement from the dealer.

    IMO

  • theclose
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    Bryant just left. He was really nice and impressed with my knowledge! Said it made it easier than going round and round. I told him what we are interested in and he will get back to me later today with quotes. He mentioned the Evolution hybrid system which he will price out but I don't think it is something we need. He will price out all I mentioned (thanks, tiger!). Said ducts are fine and they will seal up the holes. He also measured the house.

    As for stat, said Bryant controller is nice but not sure it is worth it to combine the stats. He did mention the Nest, which I am somewhat familiar with. He would give me a deal on those if we want. Otherwise we can just use what we have or just replace the A/C one since it isn't programmable.

    I will post back when I hear from him.

    Thanks!!

  • tigerdunes
    10 years ago

    Still a bit confused on this two thermostat issue.

    But would not recommend an Evolution system without the Evolution controller. Get the latest WiFI version if Internet connectivity is of interest.

    IMO

  • theclose
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    tiger, is it confusing that none of the contractors want to combine them? They all say that they can, but that it isn't necessarily worth it. Should I be asking something else about the two stat issue?

    If we don't go with the Evolution controller, which furnace would you recommend?

  • theclose
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    Bryant dealer sent first round of quotes. Here they are:

    Option 1:
    925 TA 48100 E21 Furnace
    CNPVP 4821 Cooling Coil
    116 BNA 048 4-Ton Condensing Unit
    Cost: $10,575
    Rebate: $1200
    Net cost: $9,375.00

    Option 2:
    987 MA 60100 V21 Furnace
    CNPVP 4821 Cooling Coil
    286 BNA 048 4-ton, 2-stage condensing unit HEATPUMP
    Evolution Control
    Cost: $14, 935
    Rebate: $1200
    Net Cost: $13,735

    Optional:
    Aprilaire 700 humidifier: $895 (he likes Aprilaire better as it is less expensive up front and for maintenance).
    Nest therm: $395 for 1, $350 each for 2

    I went back to him already and asked for quotes on what tiger suggested specifically. He is more than happy to get that for me and should be sending it shortly. I have to say he has been the easiest to work with! I hope his pricing comes out ok as we can seal this deal and move on.

  • theclose
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    New Bryant quotes.

    Option 1:
    986 TA 48080 v17Furnace
    CNPVP 4821 Cooling Coil
    127 ANA 048 2 STAGE 4-Ton Condensing Unit
    Cost: $12575.00
    Rebate: $1200
    Net Cost: $11375.00

    Option 2:
    986 TA 48080 V17 Furnace
    CNPVP 4821 Cooling Coil
    187 BNA 048 4-ton, 2-stage condensing unit
    Evolution Control
    Cost: $13200
    Rebate: $1200
    Net Cost: $12000

    Anything else I should be asking for?

  • theclose
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    Any thoughts on Bryant quotes? Plan on deciding today so we can get on the books.

    Thanks!!

  • tigerdunes
    10 years ago

    The last Bryant quote. Either would be fine. Both should include box filter and Evolution control. Price difference would be condenser models, a bit high. Should be no more than 350-500 bucks.

    Does dealer intend on installing new refrigerant lineset? He has examined your ductwork system?

    Dealer express any reservation on the 80 K furnace size?

    IMO

  • theclose
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    I was thinking option 2 as well. As for 80k, he said it would be fine as long as we did the 95% eff, which we were going to do regardless.

    The Trane dealer said he would never do 80k in our house since insulation is almost non-existent. Thoughts on that? Any reason we should jump to 100k? Definitely going Bryant now but can move up if necessary. Load call had heat loss at 69k, if that makes any difference.

    I'll check in lineset. Said ductwork was fine and will patch any holes.

  • tigerdunes
    10 years ago

    Option 1 and 2 are both fine systems. carry the same warranty. It's what you are willing to pay.

    Evolution controller and box filter a must.

    Follow up on the lineset. If existing is kept and flushed, it must be to the Bryant spec. Close does not count. I prefer new. Save old and take to scrap yard for a nice dinner out.

    Good LucK!
    IMO

  • theclose
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    Just checke quote. Included:

    Refrigeration Line
    Condensation Pump
    Condensing Unit Pad
    Disconnect Boxes
    Four Speed Blower Motor
    Low and Line Voltage Wiring
    Induced Combustion
    Microprocessor Based Control Center
    Aluminized Primary Heat Exchanger
    Hot Surface Ignition
    Galvanized Flue Pipe*
    Emergency Switch at Furnace

  • theclose
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    Tiger, I truly cannot thank you enough for your assistance. You and the few other guys that posted have saved us time, money and worry. I know more about furnaces and a/c's than I ever thought I would! My husband thanks you too! I will post back with results.

  • tigerdunes
    10 years ago

    Looks like dealer is including new refrigerant lineset. That's good. Save old and take to scrap yard for copper value.

    See nothing about a box filter cabinet. You will need that for indoor air quality and to protect your evap coil and vs blower motor.

    And of course the ubiquitous Evolution controller for the Evolution system.

    IMO

  • theclose
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    The box filter isn't included. If I want the media air filter, $295. Aprilaire 700 is $895. He likes the Aprilaire, as he said it is cheaper for filters. Thoughts on that?

    Definitely going with Evolution controller. Our stat isn't located in the best place (interior wall in dining room, away from windows/doors but sun beats on it in the PM - just ordered curtains so that hopefully will help!) but I did notice on the Bryant site that they have room sensors if your stat isn't optimally located. Anyone have any experience with those?

  • tigerdunes
    10 years ago

    Need more description on the media air filter. Be specific.

    Too high on the Aprilair. That may be an electronic air cleaner which I would not recommend. Ask for price on the 2200 series. Link below.

    Filters, well that's just inconsequential cost.

    You must have filter protection of one form or another. Honeywell makes a cheap cabinet that does the job. Cabinet is a bit light but OK.

    IMO

    Here is a link that might be useful: AprilAire Whoe House Air Filter Cabinets

  • theclose
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    Thanks, tiger. I will ask about the Aprilaire 2200 series. Have a call in to seal this deal. He should call back soon.

  • theclose
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    I misspoke. That price, $895, is for the Aprilaire 2200. The 700 is the humidifier, which we might not need.

    So, that price is too high, I assume?

  • tigerdunes
    10 years ago

    Absurd price! Should be no more than 4-500 hundred to install including first filter which last up to one year. A good dealer would not let this issue interfere with closing the deal.

    Get the details on media air filter.

    Post back.

  • theclose
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    Good news. They lowered the Aprilaire 2200 filter to $395. I'll go with it.

    Humidifier: not sure if we need a new one. We will try to use existing and go from there.

    Thank you, thank you!

  • tigerdunes
    10 years ago

    Keep us posted with your initial impression following install.

    Which condenser model did you decide on?

    IMO

  • theclose
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    Absolutely!

    Here is final system:

    Option 2:
    986 TA 48080 V17 Furnace
    CNPVP 4821 Cooling Coil
    187 BNA 048 4-ton, 2-stage condensing unit
    Evolution Control (want to get Connex Controller; waiting to hear back)
    Aprilaire 2200 filter

  • ryanhughes
    10 years ago

    I would just confirm with the dealer that the evaporator coil installed will be CNPVP4821ALA. The "ALA" suffix indicates the new Carrier all-aluminum coil.

  • tigerdunes
    10 years ago

    What's the diff with this and option #2.

    I personally would want the latest Evolution stat that has Internet connectivity. I would not get an Evolution system without the Evolution controller.

    Get the Connex. Then live and learn with the mistake.

    IMO

  • ryanhughes
    10 years ago

    The Connex is the name for the new touchscreen Evolution controller. SYSTXBBECN01, SYSTXBBECW01 (wifi model).

    Here is a link that might be useful: http://www.bryant.com/products/controls/evolutionconnex.shtml

    This post was edited by ryanhughes on Fri, Aug 30, 13 at 15:19

  • theclose
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    The Connex is the Evolution Connex, the Evolution stat with Internet. We are on the same page.

    No difference. This is option 2. I was just responding to your question of what condenser we chose.

  • theclose
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    Thanks, Ryan. I will confirm coil.

  • tigerdunes
    10 years ago

    See there. Learn something everyday. This proprietary jargon is getting ahead of me. Good deal. You are getting one fine system that should give you years of good service as well as comfort and savings compared to that oversized system you have now.

    A little knowledge goes a long way.

    IMO

    Here is a link that might be useful: Evolution Connex Controller

  • theclose
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    Thanks, tiger!

    Ryan, have call in to confirm coil.

  • theclose
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    Oh and I confirmed the Evolution Connex controller.