I think this is a poor idea based on the age of oil boiler.

IMO

I agree with Tigerdunes. Adding a gas burner is inefficient and most contractors have little experience doing this type of work.

The operating costs of gas is one half to one third that of using oil. There is a significant up front investment, but the pay back period is short.

I know the limitations, but assuming that a new boiler is not possible and a new gas burner is the best improvement that can be made. Does any know what so I can see if is worth calling contractors?

Given that the boiler can be run with gas off the shelf, how hard can a fuel conversion be? It seems likely to be plug and play.

I grew up in a house which had a coal fired boiler converted to gas, so I think this conversion is possible. I don't know about the how the domestic hot water would work if it a constant on boiler. This is beyond my expertise. I would not describe this as plug and play.

I think most contractors would not want to get involved in a conversion of this type. It is not worth the potential headaches and possible liabilities if something goes wrong.

Find out if there are any neighbors who have done this and what contractor they used. You may get lucky and find a good contractor who has experience doing these type of conversions.

Get us posted with updates.

Mike_home, your point about finding a contractor that has done this is a good one. I had been thinking that it must be pretty common around here since everyone used to heat with coal, then oil before gas was available. Gas became available, I am estimating, 20 years ago. The trouble might be, at this point, is that these conversions might not be so common as they used to be in this area because most people have already done the conversion or installed new boilers.

It might be important to keep in mind that this boiler was originally designed to burn either oil or gas so it is not a radical retrofit. It is more like putting different wheels on your car than taking the wheels off and installing tracks. The question is whether it is worth the investment.

The boiler has been well-maintained with annual checks and maintenance. If it has a couple of decades left in it, and a gas burner can be installed and paid back in a year or two, it might be a worthwhile investment for the homeowner involved.

CArlin and Riello are two of the better power gas burners for this type of conversion. You should contact your gas supplier for suggestions on local requirements. I agree that this is not worth doing given the age of the boiler, but those Crane boilers did a good job...way back when. I would not keep the tankle$$ coil in the boiler for DHW. Find an alternate method of hot water heating and when the heating season is over, turn the boiler off.

Thanks, access for alternative venting of combustion products is not straightforward. That is one reason to avoid installing a condensing boiler.

I have a cousin that was in the fuel oil and heating biz for 30+ years before retiring a couple of years ago. He looked at it and gave a hand-waving $2000 estimate including re-lining the chimney to accommodate the lower temperature.

It is not the best use of $2000 in my opinion. But if it fits your elderly friend's budget and causes little disruption then it is a viable solution.

I am not sure why the chimney needs to be relined. The efficiency of this type of conversion is low. There will be a lot of hot exhaust going up the chimney. The liner doesn't hurt be probably an unnecessary expense.

Thanks, if a contractor determines that it is not necessary, that could make the price tag a few hand-waving dollars lower. That would probably put the ROI at 1 year.

Homeowner "stopped buying green bananas" some time ago :-)

We put chimney liners in to save lives.

Thanks, that is both informative and fascinating. What kind of chimneys are your liners installed in? What are the liners made from. Is it difficult to install these liners? How many lives have the liner installations saved?

Liners most probably code.

Might be worth asking the coding authority for your area.

IMO

Or ask a professional for his opinion. It is hard to quantify since no one has died from a chimney fire or CO poisoning in a job we installed.

No one with any sense or experience would be cavalier about lining chimneys until he personally inspected same. They are generally made from aluminum when used of a natural gas appliance. Not a DIY job.

Here is a link that might be useful: chimney liners

No one suggested DIY.

" Is it difficult to install these liners?"

One might infer. But thank you for the heads-up.

Pushing chimney liners has little to do with saving lives and more to do with lining the pockets of installers. Installers who, all to often don't understand how a chimney works or don't understand how to prevent flue gas condensation without lining a stack.

Having said that about liners, an oil to gas conversion using carlin, riello or wayne combustion burners is, often, a very good choice. A slight loss of efficiency with a substantial reduction in initial investment over all new equipment and a substantial reduction in operating cost vs. oil (at least for now).

A number of years ago a home was converted from oil to gas and the chimney was not re-lined, nor was it cleaned. The condensation in the masonry chimney loosened the accumulated oil deposits which washed down, plugged the flue and killed the lady living in the house.

I don't know much about this but in addition to staying at a Hoilday Inn last night I represented Dura Vent, Metalbestos and Z-Flex for close to 20 years. The code states that an oil to gas conversion must have the chimney cleaned and then relined. If you will look at the venting tables in NFPA 54 you will see that you need around 400,000 btu to use a straight masonry chimney, and that is if the chimney passes inspection, which it will not.

Masonry chimneys have no place venting ANY combustion device, and I'm willing to include wood in that to. You are using 11th century technology to vent 21st century appliances. In today's world, a masonry chimney is an architectural device and not a mechanical device.

As far as the comment of only being used to "line someone's pockets", yes there are a lot of sharks out there, but the physics of combustion speak for themselves, if you understand them!

As usual, listen to Badger!

I finally got around to looking at the link that Badger posted. It is very informative. I am certain that the chimney in question is ceramic-lined. It is block, not brick. I was under the impression that this is what a relatively standard masonry chimney is. Now I know that there are more stone-hachet types with no liner at all. Scary indeed!

Typical scary stories, misinformation, and lack of understanding displayed by metal liner salesman.

First, of course, we get the "true" story about the old lady who switched from oil to gas basically telling you: "you'll DIE if you switch from oil to gas and don't line your chimney!!" Of course, some old lady somewhere probably did die in the unfortunate manner the story mentioned, but that had little to do with not lining, it had to do w/ faulty installation, likely a dead end chimney, and failure to properly clean the stack. In this story, if, a stainless or aluminum liner were used without the proper cleaning you would have a collapsed, pitted liner from the massive amount of acidic, iron and moisture laden oil soot collecting around the base; then the poor old lady would have died just as dead as before.

I especially like the "11th century technology to vent 21st century appliances" That must be (or should be) in a liner salesman's handbook somewhere; very catchy fluff and it "makes sense" I'm sure in a lot of peoples' minds.

Liners have a place, but, they've gone from being an inexpensive fix to specific problems in specific situations to being a way to siphon off a few more $$ from every install. The typical scare tactics and slick sales lines are part of that game.

The liner Mfg'rs and their retailers, lobbyists have done a great job of slowly changing "code" and laws to benefit themselves, not consumers.

berlin has his points. Of course there are those who would take advantage of you and those who find a boogy-man under every rock. But when in doubt, no one will argue that a new chimney liner will shorten your life or the serviceable life of your new appliance.

Seems like a small but potentially serious item. But by all means if you know as much as berlin about this subject feel free to ignore accepted practice or may get him to come over and sign off on your existing chimney.

Here is a link that might be useful: BadgerBoilerMN says check the chimney

Actually the "gradually changed code" referred to is correct. I can tell you the industry fought chimney liners like crazy because they said it would make systems more expensive. The first required liner sections of the code appeared in '91. Each successive issue of NFPA 54 got tighter and tighter until about '04 when they said that masonry chimneys are,...hmmmm...junk! By that time the utilities had to take a serious look at masonry chimneys over the years and concluded that indeed they were....hmmmm....junk.

Let me tell you about "junk"

LIner mfg'rs recommending stainless with coal - 2-5 year lifespan w/ sudden complete collapse causing a potentially life-threatening situation. This is typically 316L or ti, the most corrosion resistant stainless liner material. Complete collapse - looked like a slinky. Lining was recommended strongly by installer - tile liner was in excellent shape and this potentially deadly disaster could have been completely avoided if the chimney was never lined with stainless. Liner mfg'r did step up and offer a free replacement. (North east Penn); Stainless class a metal stack interior collapse after three years w/ coal ( Coal rated and warrantied chimney - documented - Fredonia, NY) + Many more.

Stainless class a chimney failure 316L (Westport, NY) Less than 15 years use w/ well maintained oil boiler. Top two sections failed internally from corrosion - every section had visible pin-holes. Stainless 304 liner failure - top three sections badly pinholed/pitted and many remaining parts felt like aluminum foil (Akron, NY)

Numerous aluminum liner failures including total collapse w/ Nat. gas (Buffalo, NY) Partly due to poor installation practice (uninsulated liner in unlined masonry flues in contact with alkaline mortar parging and joints). Many other liner failures were partial failures of the liners (either top or bottom) and could not be attributed to faulty installation.

One of the few areas where stainless liners DO serve the purpose of increasing safety is in flues serviced by enclosed wood-burning appliances - stoves, boilers, and furnaces. With wood, there doesn't seem to be widespread pitting corrosion the stainless steel (hopefully insulated) offers protection to any masonry against the rapid temperature rise and damage of a chimney fire. Chimney fires, of course, are a non-issue with other fuels.

With fuels other than wood, a metal chimney liner is often not necessary and CAN fail catastrophically - potentially causing an unsafe condition that otherwise would not exist. This is especially true with fuels such as coal and heating oil.

Berlin, can you provide a source for the failure information?

Yes, me.

Here's some pics that others posted of failed stainless liners:
http://nepacrossroads.com/download/file.php?id=38095&mode=view
http://nepacrossroads.com/download/file.php?id=13080&mode=view
http://nepacrossroads.com/download/file.php?id=13081&mode=view
http://nepacrossroads.com/download/file.php?id=13082&mode=view
http://nepacrossroads.com/about26602.html

Ionized,
have you talked to the company that did your install
about the pros & cons of this conversion for your friend?
he seems to me the type of person that if he doesn't
know personally, would have contacts that could offer
insight & experience.

best of luck.

Berlin, thanks. I was wondering if there is a place where these failures might be reported and compiled, either a trade organization or government agency. You circled around the boiler in question, Chenango County.

Energy, the boiler is not local. I would not have thought to ask anyone here because fuel oil heat in the metro area is so rare. My guy might know about it since he is exceptional.

Berlin probably has a better grasp than I do. My perception is that in NY oil is less common than it once was due to increasing penetration of natural gas into the smaller villages and the general depopulation of rural areas. 50 years ago "everyone" had an oil-, or propane-fired boiler or furnace. I think it was heavily biased to oil. It seems like a tank truck from one company or another stopped at every house. The older homes had converted from coal. (The same, multi-compartment trucks delivered some kerosene.) Today, there are still people outside of the villages on farms and those that choose to be outside of incorporated areas that have no access to nat gas. What do you see used for heat in older installations in rural LA?

My aim here was to try to get an idea of what might be involved in the project to convince the owner. We know of at least one competent contractor candidate that we would trust to ask. I bet he has done some similar conversions, but will certainly ask. The flue discussion that resulted is very interesting, but might be frustrating.