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jzbv

Heat pump quotes

jzbv
10 years ago

Hi everyone, Please reply with feedback on the quotes below and any other recommendations (my Jul 18 post about brands contains details of my situation). In summary, southwest PA, 2-story 2000sq ft home + 1000sq ft unfinished basement/garage, want to eliminate super-expensive oil heat ($3200/yr with current $3.60 oil), AC, no gas here, electric totals 7.32 cents/kwh.

Contractor A
Includes redo of warm and cold air ductwork in basement to improve air flow, 1 new return on 1st floor, 10 yrs on all parts and 1 yr free service:
1. Carrier 25HBC536A003, CNPVU4221ALA N-coil, dual-fuel thermostat, warm air plenum/line set/disconnect/base, connect to current oil furnace, up to 15 SEER - $5600 (no rebates)
2. Carrier FE4ANB006 Infinity Fan Coil with 20KW package, 25HNB948 Infinity Heat Pump 2 speed, Infinity Control, capacity 46500, SEER 16.8, EER 13, HSPF 9.5 - $12,100 - $1000 Carrier rebate - $300 power company rebate = $10,800
3. Carrier FE4ANB006 Infinity Fan Coil with 20KW package, 25VWA048 (I believe W should be a V) Infinity Heat Pump Greenspeed, Infinity Control, (no ratings shown but iompics.com shows capacity 47500, SEER 18.3, EER 13.5, HSPF 12.5 ) - $13,900 - $1000 Carrier rebate - $300 power company rebate = $12,600

Contractor B
Includes digital touch screen thermostat, 10yr parts/labor with service agreement:
4. York YHJF36S41S4 outdoor, AHE42D indoor, capacity 36000, SEER 15, EER 12.5, HSPF 9.0, HCAP 34600 @47F and 20200 @17F - $7000
5. Goodman SSZ140361B outdoor, ARPT36D14A indoor, capacity 33400, SEER 14, EER 11.5, HSPF 8.3, HCAP 30000 @47F and 20000 @17F - $6000

I feel more confident with Contractor A based on their visit, recommendations from others, and they are a bigger company (not a 1-man outfit). I am leaning to 2. and 3. above though the prices are a little higher than I hoped for. I plan to remain in this home for 7 more years.

Comments (11)

  • ryanhughes
    10 years ago

    I like the idea of going to a high efficiency heat pump, but I'm confused: Why is Contractor A oversizing by a full ton when quoting heat pump systems? Without a load calculation and knowing your home's heat loss/heat gain values, this is wrong. Also very much doubt you need 20 kW of strip heat in a 2000 sqft home (conditioned space -- even if basement is conditioned) in PA. I would ask this contractor about their sizing selections and both whether they have done load calculations to determine sizing. I suspect a 3 or 3.5 ton heat pump (depending on actual calculated heat loss/gain) with variable speed heat pump and 15 kW heater package is sufficient and will keep you comfortable (oversized equipment does not, especially in the cooling season where humidity control is important), but a load calc is the proper way of determining the capacity your home needs. Start from there.

    I like the York combination personally of the quotes you've mentioned (as they are). The air handler is not variable speed but is high efficiency. Any mention of the heater package size in this estimate?

    This post was edited by ryanhughes on Sat, Aug 3, 13 at 13:40

  • tigerdunes
    10 years ago

    jz

    I agree with Ryan.

    I think it would be a poor decision to keep oil as the backup.

    Good pricing on the GreenSpeed system. Stay away from Goodman.

    15 KW staged in 5 KW increments for either York or Carrier system would be my recommendation. Just for info, 15 KW yields 51 KBTUs.

    Prefer a var speed air handler in York quote over the high eff fixed speed model. Better for dehumidification in AC cooling.

    I would want a filter box cabinet for either system.

    I am also puzzled about the sizing recommendations.

    IMO

  • jzbv
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    Ryan/Tigerdunes,
    I am new to heat pumps and have gained what knowledge I have by talking to the HVAC guys and reading all over the internet (including forums and folks like you giving what appears to be really good advice). Contractor A seems more professional and experienced. Says they have installed up to 2000 units (I think this was Greenspeed or Infinity only). I think my current 15yr-old recently broken 10-SEER Rheem AC is 3.5 ton. He said he sized at 4 ton because with the high-tech variable speed and inverter compressor the unit will between 2 and 4 ton with the Infinity Control. I guess a Greenspeed 3.5 ton would cost less. I don't know about 20KW. If 15KW is sufficient, would that just be a matter of purchase savings? Thanks.

  • tigerdunes
    10 years ago

    Jz

    Heat pumps are normally sized to cooling with heat strips to make up the heating difference for those cold days.

    You are missing the point.

    Why would Contractor A quote a 3 ton HP condenser in option #1 and then a 4 ton Greenspeed system in #2?

    I would want to know your current size. No guessing. Do you know? And if you go up in size from a 3 or 3 1/2 ton, certainly there would be ductwork modifications. Has Contactor A mentioned this?

    And BTW, there s no 3 1/2 ton Greenspeed HP as this model is only available in full ton increments-2,3,4,5 ton sizes.

    You need a professionally performed load calculation for correct sizing. Insist on it.

    IMO

  • jzbv
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    Tigerdunes, I think he did 3-ton due to some reason with operating with the old oil furnace (I could ask but I have no plans to keep oil). Current broken AC is a 3-ton Rheem RAKA-037JAZ, but maybe it should have been 3.5 all along since the 2nd floor has never been as cool as we have wanted. I also got a couple of bids on heat pumps last year but did not pull the trigger, maybe good thing since I am now going to replace oil furnace too. One contractor did do a load calculation last year and stated 3.5 ton (I don't recall but he may have factored in some square footage of the unfinished basement/garage). And as I noted, contractor A will redo warm and cold air ductwork in basement to improve air flow. Anyway, isn't it better to have 4 ton that will basically run between 2 and 4 ton with the Infinity Control and the variable speed and inverter compressor rather than have a possibly undersized 3 ton?

  • jzbv
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    I also found this on another HVAC forum which appears to support 4-ton: "In most situations, heating demand is much larger than A/C demand - making it impossible to perfectly size a heat pump. Either it is way oversized for cooling, and right sized for heating, or it is right-sized for cooling, and undersized for heat. With inverter heat pumps, it is possible to right size both heating and cooling - you can oversize the A/C so that there will be enough heating BTU's. In A/C mode, the system will just run at a lower speed. Added benefit - the inverter systems are even more efficient at partial load - another argument for oversizing an inverter system. There is an excellent study done by some government agency on one of these systems (Nordyne's - but Carrier's Greenspeed is pretty much the same thing). The gist of the study's results - in real world usage, the inverter systems are even more efficient than their SEER/HSPF ratings suggest."

  • tigerdunes
    10 years ago

    Understand, I am not necessarily opposed to the 4 ton two stage HP condenser. But that would be a mistake without modifications to your ductwork system to handle the extra CFMs, both supply and return.

    And your second floor situation as far as cooling is quite typical. Larger size will not help. Usually this is indicative of poor ductwork/ sizing design.

    It will take more modifications than just the basement area.

    This is a issue that homeowners like yourself don't want to hear and dealers don't want to explain because of the additional cost. And without these changes, you could be hurting your new equipment not to mention getting the comfort you expect from a new system.

    Has dealer even checked your electric service capacity to handle the heat strips. The heat strips should be staged and placed on a separate circuit.

    Just so you know.

    IMO

  • ryanhughes
    10 years ago

    I agree with the points TD made above, especially on your current comfort issues being caused by poor ductwork and not equipment capacity. Know that low stage capacity of the two stage Infinity model is roughly 75%, making low stage net capacity around 3 tons. Has any dealer actually produced a Manual J load calculation to know what size system you truly need? If you do go with a 4 ton Carrier system I would surely want the inverter system (Greenspeed) provided duct modifications are made. I'll say again that the 20 kW backup heat sounds crazy (15 kW likely plenty -- again, load calc). A big system for a 2000 sqft home of average construction (?) in PA.

  • tigerdunes
    10 years ago

    Ryan agrees and I hope OP will follow through on our concerns and suggestions.

    Good Luck.

    IMO

    This post was edited by tigerdunes on Tue, Aug 6, 13 at 18:39

  • jzbv
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    TD,
    (I am not necessarily opposed to the 4 ton two stage HP condenser. But that would be a mistake without modifications to your ductwork system to handle the extra CFMs, both supply and return.)
    As I noted, they plan to redo the ductwork.

    (Has dealer even checked your electric service capacity to handle the heat strips.)
    Yes, contractor checked and I have 200amp box with extra capacity available. This was upgraded years ago when I added a 2nd floor addition.

    Ryan,
    (Has any dealer actually produced a Manual J load calculation to know what size system you truly need?)
    As I noted, a contractor last year did a load calc and it was manual J.

    (If you do go with a 4 ton Carrier system I would surely want the inverter system Greenspeed provided duct modifications are made.)
    I am leaning to Greenspeed but hesitant on the cost. I guess if I can determine if I'll save enough money over the next 7 or 8 heating/cooling seasons, cost would be less of a concern.

    (I'll say again that the 20 kW backup heat sounds crazy (15 kW likely plenty -- again, load calc). A big system for a 2000 sqft home of average construction (?) in PA.)
    With basement/garage, it is 3000 sqft. I am not sure of the mechanics of 20 vs 15kw but would the difference just be higher purchase cost for 20kw while the heating cost would be the same since the unit will only draw as much heat as requested from thermostat?

  • jzbv
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    TD, on my last reply I forgot to ask exactly what you meant by filter box cabinet (I don't know what filter is in the quotes).