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Carrier Greenspeed Thermostats

Posted by mallens (My Page) on
Tue, Aug 5, 14 at 11:33

Appreciate any info or experience with what thermostat to use with Carrier's greenspeed heat pumps.
I am going to have my contractor install two 3 ton units with new air handlers - it will be a split systems with hot water from my oil fired boiler as back up.
Remote (wifi) access isn't a requirement but would be an added bonus.
Thanks in Advance,
Michael


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Carrier Greenspeed Thermostats

Only the best matching Carrier Infinity control would be acceptable. A WiFi model is available if interested. No third party control.

IMO


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RE: Carrier Greenspeed Thermostats

Thanks Tigerdunes.
My quote is to install two carrier edge thermostats instead of any of the infinity series ones. What are the drawbacks of using and edge over a infinity?
Michael


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RE: Carrier Greenspeed Thermostats

Full functionality. Dumb for a dealer to even quote or allow the Edge on such high tech cutting edge HP.

And you want the 005 or 006 Infinity air handler. Definitely not the 003 size model. What model did dealer quote?

IMO


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RE: Carrier Greenspeed Thermostats

I spoke to him about the thermostat and he is contacting the rep, this is his first green speed install. The contractor has excellent ratings and they installed two heat pumps in my neighbors house, he was very pleased with their work.

This is quote info:
2 carrier FE4ANB003 air handlers
2 carrier 3 ton 25VNA03A003 condensors
Michael


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RE: Carrier Greenspeed Thermostats

Wrong air handler. While it is an approved AHRi match, with the Greenspeed you are paying for the low temp feature and the high HSPF heating efficiency. Why shortchange it with a poor HSPF efficiency from the 003 air handler. You want the 005 or 006 and the "L" suffix FE air handler. Insist on it and you won't look back on this subject al least.

IMO

This post was edited by tigerdunes on Tue, Aug 5, 14 at 12:50


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RE: Carrier Greenspeed Thermostats

Tigerdunes,

Thanks again for the information. With regards to upsizing the air handler, I will ask the contractor about it, he is working with the carrier rep for assistance with this install.
What does the L designation mean in the air handler?

Michael


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RE: Carrier Greenspeed Thermostats

Tigerdunes,

Thanks again for the information. With regards to upsizing the air handler, I will ask the contractor about it, he is working with the carrier rep for assistance with this install.
What does the L designation mean in the air handler?

Michael


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RE: Carrier Greenspeed Thermostats

The L is for aluminum coil. Insist on it.

You should look at the AHRI matching numbers. They speak for themselves.

I just gave the comparison in another thread. Will provide link below.

Suggest you read the complete thread with special attention to the matching AHRI numbers/configurations that I listed.

IMO

Here is a link that might be useful: GreenSpeed Configurations.


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RE: Carrier Greenspeed Thermostats

I would not let a Carrier dealer sell or install a GreenSpeed system who had not attended Carrier's special GreenSpeed class and verified his attendance.

IMO


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RE: Carrier Greenspeed Thermostats

TigerDunes,

I read over your post about the air handlers, I will request he installs a 005L unit, the 006 is bigger in size and there will be too many issues to overcome in try to install it in the location that it the old unit is in.

Your post showed different variants of air handlers, is there some specs or a link I could look at to see how they different size air handlers impact the HSPF ratings?

I have had several quotes for the green speed and bryant units, none of them to date has had experience with these units. While they are dealers, they haven't sold any do to the difference in price to the less expensive models. I will speak with him about it, but I'm not overly concerned about his lack of experience with the system as I have resources I can call on for assistance if needed. I also have worked with industrial HVAC and refrigeration systems for more than 20 years and don't mind getting involved if needed.

Thanks again for sharing your knowledge.

Michael


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RE: Carrier Greenspeed Thermostats

You need to learn to read the AHRI directory.

The 3 ton Greenspeed with the FE Infinity air handler 005 is a good compromise to the 006. It carries a 12 HSPF heating efficiency. See below.

6938465 Active Systems CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING INFINITY SERIES HP WITH GREENSPEED INTELLIGENCE CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25VNA036A**30 FE4AN(B,F)005L+UI 1200 875 705 35000 14.00 20.00 33400 12.00 31000 1 HRCU-A-CB 217 579 Yes

I assume a 10 KW heat strip for each system which yields 35 KBTUs.

And yes the best and latest matching ubiquitous Infinity controller for the GreenSpeed.

IMO


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RE: Carrier Greenspeed Thermostats

Tigerdunes,

I did find specs on the various configurations (heat pump to air handler), I will check on the AHRI directory. Your advice is appreciated, the 005 is a great step up for heating as compared to the 003. After finding the specs on the setups for carrier, the AHRI info you posted makes more sense. I am going to the directory next to learn more.

Heat will be hot water, not sure of the exact sizing yet but I would suspect it should be above 35 KBTUs. My old air handlers are hydro air units rated at 51 KBTUs and get their hot water from my oil fired boiler.


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RE: Carrier Greenspeed Thermostats

You don't want to hear this but I think boiler water from fuel oil defeats the purpose of the Greenspeed. I certainly would run some numbers on that.

What is your fuel oil cost? What is electric cost?

Perhaps other forum regulars like Mike or Ryan will offer an opinion.

Sorry.

IMO


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RE: Carrier Greenspeed Thermostats

My fuel oil cost is at approx $3.85 per gallon, at this point I will still be using the boiler for heating my hot water heater. It is about 82% percent efficient.

Since both AH units are in locations in my house that are finished and far from the house's CB panel, I really can't see running new electrical lines to run electrical strip heaters. I currently have 2 CB feeding both air handlers and they are 110v 15amps; haven't looked into it, but I would assume that wouldn't be enough to run 35 K Btu heaters and the AH at the same time. Wiring is 12 awg.

Next year I plan on changing out my boiler to propane, we don't have NG in my area.


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RE: Carrier Greenspeed Thermostats

What is electric cost?

I will run some numbers for you to use as a guide.

TD


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RE: Carrier Greenspeed Thermostats

Sorry, forgot to mention it. It is $0.19 kWh


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RE: Carrier Greenspeed Thermostats

Whew...I couldn't live in NJ.

While I believe your hydro coil is too large, I would stay with the boiler hydro heat.

Do you have hot water baseboard or radiator heat too?

That's still expensive backup heat and hot water.

Cost per 100,000 btu of useable heat
Electric baseboard: $5.01
Heat pump: $1.59
Oil: $3.40

Understand above numbers are to be used as a guide only.

IMO


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RE: Carrier Greenspeed Thermostats

Here are my calculations to produce 1 million BTUs of heat:

Fuel Oil at $4.00 per gallon
Furnace or Boiler AFUE 78.0 78% = $36.98

Electric heat at $0.182 Kwh - with 100% efficiency
Electric heat 100.0 100% = $53.34

Carrier Greenspeed at 12.4 HSPF (using a 005L coil)
Air-Source Heat Pump HSPF 12.4 363% = $14.68


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RE: Carrier Greenspeed Thermostats

Take my numbers and multiply by 10, then compare.

Keep in mind I used 3.85/gal for oil. Should be pretty close.

What do you plan as far as filters for return air?

TD


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RE: Carrier Greenspeed Thermostats

TD,

Both are calculations are pretty similar. I live in MA... unfortunately and will have to rely on the oil heat from time to time, at least for now.

I have Aprilaire 5000 units on the outlet of both units right now, they will be placed on the return side during the new install.

I also have an Aprilarie 700 for humidification in the winter, only on the downstairs unit.

Is there anything you would recommend changing?


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RE: Carrier Greenspeed Thermostats

I really can't think of anything.

How many returns do you have for each system?

Living area size for each system?

You did not answer my question about your previous heating system. Was it hot water baseboard or radiator heat? And what happened to the system? Still in place?

IMO


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RE: Carrier Greenspeed Thermostats

I would just like to add my perspective here regarding fan coils for Greenspeed if I may. I’m in a moderately cold climate, Montreal Canada. My experience is real world cold climate and with Greenspeed.

While I do agree with Tiger, strictly speaking, regarding the FE4ANF003 verses the FE4ANF005; I think there are other considerations in a retrofit with Greenspeed. We have had greater success by up sizing 1-ton with Greenspeed. This is regarding useful heat output and noise output at very low temperatures. This is a fact. Not up sizing in cold climates will work but it’s less than recommended and I would not advise it.

Again, regarding the fan coils, in region or ‘Zone V’, Montreal Quebec and the cities of the St-Lawrence River the AHRI numbers are:

AHRI 7021746
25VNA036A003
FE4ANF003L00+UI
SEER 19
EER 13
HSPF 9.13 ‘Zone V’

AHRI 6938467
25VNA036A003
FE4ANF005000+UI (‘L’ version not listed)
SEER 20
EER 14
HSPF 10.43 ‘Zone V’

There is a difference, however; these are under ‘ideal conditions’ not real world retrofit situations where it may not make a whit of difference due to prevailing conditions related to the existing ductwork.

Other factors are price; the 005 are more expensive, although I would not be guided by price however, it is times 2 in the case of the OP. As for physical size they are equal. CFM for the 003 is 200-1400, for the 005 CFM is 250-1600. I just might prefer the 003 because it can operate at a lower speed consuming less current and perhaps offer better dehumidification. If the HP is 3-ton then the only operational justification for the 005 is the slightly better AHRI rating, the ‘L’ version, or if you want to install electric staged elements beyond 15kW and would require the additional cfm.

I also happen to like the 003-fan coil because it is the only one of the FE series that has a sloped coil as opposed to the ‘A’ coil. Correct me if I’m mistaken but I’ve always felt the sloped coil is less restrictive and may even provide better dehumidification performance.

Is the OP actually NOT planning to install backup elements in the fan coils? What about defrost mode?

Lastly, I would NOT install anything Infinity without the Infinity touch controller!

Just some thoughts from north of the 48th parallel…

IMPO

SR


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RE: Carrier Greenspeed Thermostats

TD,

My current system is two 3 ton AC units with first company 3 ton single speed AH units that handle AC and heating for the central ventilation system. The boiler is a burnham 150 MBH unit, it supplies the hot water the air handlers, hot water heater and radiant zones. The radiant zones are Kitchen, Master Bath, Family Room, Basement (partial walk out), attached garage (heated concrete slab), and carriage house garage (heated concrete slab). Both the garages are 2 car. Total square footage of basement (finished) is 1200 ft2, first floor 1750 ft2, 2nd floor 1690 ft2.

The current system - heat - will stay for now, will look to upgrade it next summer. No NG in the area, will probably switch to propane.

The heat pumps will carry most of the load for heat, backed up by the boiler when temps drop too low for the heat pumps. While I have relied on radiant in the past, I will switch to more forced hot air with the heat pumps. I also plan on not heating the garages this winter, I will secure those zones before the cold weather starts. They are well insulated but the doors are the biggest problem, especially when the wife comes home and forgets to close the garage door after driving into the garage and coming into the house - happens too often.

All areas are finished, don't know off hand how many supplies and returns I have. None of the contractors mentioned any concern when they inspected the ducting. My guess is the upstairs has about 8 returns - 2 are large 18 x 18 inch square returns in the foyer ceiling outside the bedrooms, the other ones are smaller and in each room. All rooms upstairs have at least one supply, M bedroom has at least 4 supplies and as many returns. Supplies and returns are flex R3 lines - attic is enveloped with foam insulation. I can get more info tomorrow during the day.

The basement and first floor share the same system for hydro air. Basement only has 3 supplies and one return, 1st floor has at least a dozen supplies in the various rooms and as many returns - all lines are rigid ducting.

M.


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RE: Carrier Greenspeed Thermostats

SR,

Thanks for the input, I heard about the noise issues but not sure it will be a real concern for my installation. I have two AC units - one a ten seer and the other a 13 seer. The ten seer is seen better days and it is load as hell when it is running but we can't hear it when inside the house. Looking at the db ratings on the greenspeed, I'm sure they will be quieter than the ten seer unit I have now.

Where do you numbers come from on HSPF? What I found was that the 005 with the 3 ton unit had an hspf of 12.4. I have heard about upsizing the unit for more heat, I think it will be something to consider at least for the first floor unit that also supplies heat to the basement. All AH will have water coils in them for supplemental heat when it is too cold for the heat pump.

In the past, I have used the AH for heat on the first floor but normally don't turn on the heat for the upstairs in the winter unless it get really cold. I have a large foyer that faces south, it gets a lot of radiant heat from the windows in the winter. Also, the heat does rise to the second floor. I will turn on the radiant heat in the master bath during the winter. The temp usually stays around mid to low 60s without the heat on. I keep the downstairs radiant set to about 68 in the kitchen and family room, I will use the hydro air on this floor too, I set it below the radiant temp.

How long have you had the greenspeed? Have you gone through a winter with it? Could you give me your thoughts on how well it worked? What temp does your other heat source come on at?

Thanks,
M.


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RE: Carrier Greenspeed Thermostats

The numbers in my previous post are ARHI ratings used by dealers to determine Energy Star compliance for a provincial income tax rebate qualification in Quebec Canada. Remember, you are probably in Region IV; these ratings are for Region V, north of you.

I personally don’t own a Greenspeed, our system is geothermal. I’m a geothermal consultant that is an accredited geothermal installer and residential designer. I also do consulting in the conventional heating and cooling sector that includes Carrier and the Carrier Infinity Greenspeed. I have participated in MANY Carrier training seminars.

What I understand from your previous post is that instead of heat strips you are planning to install yet another coil (hydronic) in your plenum. While you can do this it will increase the static pressure in you duct system and while the Infinity system should still produce a constant cfm, within limits, this will impact energy usage and perhaps performance and comfort.

Have you not considered a liquid-to-water geothermal system, you seem like the perfect candidate?

SR


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RE: Carrier Greenspeed Thermostats

SR,

I have considered a geothermal system and probably would go this route if it was for new construction. My property and 2 structures don't lend itself to this approach.

With regards to adding one of carriers water coils, what would be the difference between using a heating coil vs having electric heating strips installed for times when the temp is too low for the heat pumps?


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RE: Carrier Greenspeed Thermostats

Regarding the additional hydronic coil for backup, I see this approach as being overly expensive to install and complicated, as it would restrict airflow, require addition controls as well as the need to engage a circulator pump. It may also require more maintenance. You wouldn’t want this to spring a leak as you may then be replacing the fan coil as well as the hydronic coil, no heat or AC from that system until repaired or replaced.

The hydronic coil would be slower to come on line and react than electric elements. The electric elements would be staged, offering more flexibility comfort and efficiency. If there is a demand for heat from your boiler just for the defrost cycle then you are virtually guaranteeing short cycling of the oil boiler and far less than the posted 82% efficiency. Staged electrical backup is ALWAYS 100% efficient!

The FE005 or FE006 that you’re looking at can have up to 30kW staged elements, that’s up to and over 102MBtu - delivered at 100% efficiency!

In short, I think the staged electric elements that can be installed in the fan coil would be cheaper, quicker, better.

IMPO

SR


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RE: Carrier Greenspeed Thermostats

Certainly not cheaper to,operate according to calculations I made yesterday.

I may have misunderstood but I thought OP was already using these hydronic coils on his old AC system. This needs clarification.

And certainly for OP's location, the Infinity 005 air handler is the way to go.
With the GreenSpeed you are paying for both the low temp feature and the higher HSPF heating efficiency over conventional heat pump system.

IMO


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RE: Carrier Greenspeed Thermostats

TD and SR,

I currently have a heating system in place, it is a combination of radiant and forced hot air. The AH serve both the heating and cooling needs of the house right now. The new AH will accomplish the same.

All hot water lines are already there for both AH units as well as a circ pump to supply and return the water to the oil fired boiler. Even with electrical heating coils at 100% efficiency, it is more expensive to produce heat than it is to produce hot water will oil. KW is 19 cents and oil is at 3.85 per gallon. Break even at those prices are having a boiler that is only 55% efficient.

Recent service to my boiler shows it was 82% efficient as is. To tear out the hot water lines and then try to run new electrical lines for the electric heaters in finished areas of the house isn't practical and will be extreme cost prohibitive.

This post was edited by mallens on Wed, Aug 6, 14 at 16:05


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RE: Carrier Greenspeed Thermostats

The thing here to consider is not having electric strips to provide heat when the temperature is too low. It is what you will need during defrost cycles. These can occur at temperatures above the lowest the GS can operate. They will probably last for a few minutes. But is that enough time for a hot water system to activate and produce effective warmth? Realize that during these cycles the HP is producing cold air inside and blasting away. Electric strips react pretty quickly. I don't know how fast a hydronic system will react.


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RE: Carrier Greenspeed Thermostats

The debate so to speak about the hydronic coil versus electric heat strip is a moot point. OP has already decided to go in that direction.

IMO


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RE: Carrier Greenspeed Thermostats

Since the boiler will also be handling the hot water demands for the house, it will be running to some extent during those times and should be sufficient to add any heat necessary during defrost cycles.


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