what area of country do you live?

what is electric rate?

I don't recommend anyone purchasing HVAC from a big box store.

any idea why your electric bill has been so extremely high?
what size is existing system?

my personal specs for a new HP system are as follows:

15 SEER,12+ EER, 9 HSPF
full BTUs in both cooling and heating for rated size
matching var speed air handler
R-410a refrigerant
scroll compressor preferred
electronic demand defrost preferred
thermostat that controls blower speed for improved dehumidification
staged backup heat strips

my favorites for sgl stage systems are Carrier's Performance 15 HP and Trane's XL15i HP, both quality HVAC.

as Ryan stated, have ductwork system thoroughly inspected.

IMO

Model is a Lennox XP-16 Heat Pump
Thermostat is a Lennox ComfortSense 5000
I get the new 401a coolant (environmentally friendly stuff)
Filter will be a Healthy Climate Merv10

Total price is $5585

Did I get a good unit and a good deal?

This is a local company I've done business w/ before - not a big box. Seemed like pretty stand up folks.

THANKS!

the XP16 is a two stg HP and requires a matching var speed blower, either from an air handler or furnace. obviously, if you don't have this, you will not get the rated efficiencies from this HP and system may not operate correctly. Frankly, I think you may be trading one problem with another. What exactly is the brand/model/size of existing indoor furnace? And the size of the XP16? I don't like non-matching systems of different brands but if you must, I think the XP14 with matching coil is a better choice and should save you some bucks.

what's your take on this set-up Ryan?

IMO

I think you should get another quote from another company just for comparison reasons as far as price and options go.

I agree with Ryan.

Lennox HPs are not my favorite due to eff and performance metrics even when a matched system much less a non matched system of different manufacturers.

I suggest getting a price on a Carrier Comfort 13 HP with matching coil.

Just so you know, you would be better off in the long run with a matched dual fuel system-HP with var spd furnace.

IMO

sorry.

Like said previously, with the XP16 I believe you will just be replacing one problem with another. Do your research!

Good Luck-you will need it.

IMO

http://www.turbotecproducts.com/EPhome.html
http://www.trevormartin.com/about.asp
http://www.p2pays.org/ref/11/10104.pdf

http://michaelbluejay.com/electricity/
(last link not HRU related but good for saving power)

Usually being up north makes a HRU non-cost effective except in cases like yours. Best to install it when system is being changed.

I would check with your electric utility and see if they have any programs or incentives to update your system and go from there. I would not settle for an unmatched system if there is any way to keep from it. I have an unmatched system and it is horrible. I do not have the comfort level that I should have if only the builder would have cared. I also donate more green to the electric company because my house isn't as 'green' as it should be.

The only question we are really mulling over is the Heat Pump vs. standalone AC unit. We are replacing an existing Heat Pump/Furnace setup, so a Heat Pump is a "known"; however, would a standalone AC unit be a better approach? Seems like around a $1500 total *installation* savings going with the AC unit only.

Don't have the final figure, but looking at around $9000 for everything.

I know usage and geography matter - we live in western PA and tend to keep the house temp around 72 in the summer and around 68-70 (tops) in the winter.

Worth saving money going with standalone AC unit? Or keep HP?

Replacing furnace regardless - got the point in this forum on the importance of the Variable Blower and the great efficiency of newer units. (our existing stuff is 15 years old and the HP is shot - furnace is a ComfortMaker and probably only has a few more years - save install $$$ as well by doing both now)!

Thanks again for all the help!

What kind of costs are you looking at? HRU are pretty inexpensive.

You are making a wise decision by considering a complete system both inside and out.

for full disclosure, I am not a fan of Lennox HPs due to efficiency and performance numbers.

if you can post mdl and size of furnace, evap coil, and outside condenser, someone on this forum can provide the AHRI matching system numbers for you to review.

a couple of suggestions.

if you go dual fuel,I would consider dropping back to the G61v furnace simply because the G71P would be overkill with the HP. If you decide to drop dual fuel idea and go straight AC over the HP, then stick with the G71P.

Now to the condensers. I am not a fan of two stg condensers either AC or HP. For most homes/applications, they are not necessary. Look at the XP14 as a very good sgl stg model either AC or HP. It will save you some bucks.

Finally, with any system configuration, you should insist on the HW VisionPro IAQ stat.

Ryan is a Lennox expert and it would be good if he could weigh in with his advice.

BTW, pricing seems reasonable and I see Lennox has a rebate program that expires next week. I assume you aware of this.

IMO

RyanHughes - interested in your view as we likely will go with a Lennox. What should I go with for the AC unit? Should I stick with a standalone AC -or- go with a Heat Pump (and if so, would that be an XP-14 or XP-16 - noting with Tigerdunes describes above)?

THANKS SO MUCH!

scott/mel

post this info and someone can give you performance/ efficiency numbers if operating costs are important to you. what size outside condenser are you looking at?

IMO

Existing System (15 yrs old - original with home):

Furnace = Inter-City model# GUA080A016DIN - says "80,000 BTU IN and 64,000 Capacity BTU Out"

Heat Pump = Inter-City model# YG036G (it has "ARCOAIRE" as the label) - the label does not give much more info...and the owner's guide doesn't say much but "split system"

Coil = Inter-City model # 8Y12003

Thermostat = Honeywell T8600 Chronotherm III

Current new "leading contender system" - this is what I expect to get quoted on Monday for around $9000:

Furnace = Lennox G71P Variable-Capacity Gas Furnace

Heat Pump = Lennox XP-16

Coil = C33-3813 (guy said this might change b/c I "added" the furnace) - I asked about the CX34 - he said they can use the C33 and change the valve to save a few $$$$

Thermostat = Lennox ComfortSense 5000

If I missed anything, I can have my husband check the existing units again...Thx!

as said previously, I do not like Lennox HPs. I went through the AHRI HP Directory this morning and definitely your dealer's selected coil is not the best choice.

I would forget the HP altogether, stay with the G71P and substitute either the XC15(first choice) or the XC14(second choice) Lennox AC condensor. This will save you some bucks. And you must ask for the evap coil selection that provides the best AC BTU numbers, the highest EER and SEER rating. Yes, this is important and makes a difference!

And definitely ask for the HW VisionPro IAQ that has the "dehumidify on demand feature. Don't accept the Lennox stat.

What about this Ryan?-I would like to know your idea on what's best for this homeowner. I am told PA will have some healthy electric rate increases in about two years.

IMO

Scottmel, it's still never a bad idea to get at least one more opinion with this investment. You may find that Carrier offers a better system for what you're after--the Infinity system.

With the heat pump water heater... here is something that gives 2-3 units of heat for each unit of electricity.. plus offers extra dehumidification and many have a high and low setting which will help cool the area they are in if it is warm climate and they are in a garage or cool climate and are in a basement. I have researched and most if not every unit I have found does not take any discharging or charging of the system and even on the retrofit units going to a regular tank can be completed by someone that is somewhat mechanically inclined.
There is no chance of 5yrs down the road of your 10+yr warranty on the system with the waste heat recovery unit saying that something is NOT covered on warranty because of the waste heat recovery unit. I see the waste heat recovery unit as being an awesome addition to a unit down south where the heat is relentless and the snow rarely flies, with someone who is mechanically inclined enough to keep tabs on everything. With the long term warranty's available it seems like you could get into a situation like buying a new car and putting a chip in it and then taking it into the shop because it has a miss. Even if its totally unrelated to the chip the first thing the dealer will want to do is point straight at the chip.. EVEN after the chip is removed from the car. I have seen it with my own eyes when I was a mechanic and witnessed peoples warranties go out the window.

There is a place for the waste heat recovery unit in my opinion.. few year old system with an expired warranty or an older low seer setup that is owned by a tinkerer who wants to squeeze everything he can out of his unit.

I think the heat pump water heater will be the next big thing in water heating.. The only negative is the recovery time isn't as fast as other methods, but some of them are pretty impressive. I would like to meet my hot water needs with @5amps 220v or 15a 120v and get TWO+ units of heat for the price of one.

Maybe I am paranoid but I think with a brand new system with say a 10yr extended warranty.. if something happened and you had a failure on the system that is all carrier or trane whatever and someone elses piece in the middle. Throw an outside company in the mix for the extended warranty and I smell a possible headache that could cost more than the savings of the recovery unit by far.

my .02

Bob

Lennox G71MP-36B-070 Furnace
Lennox XC14-036 Air Conditioner
CX34-3813 Coil
Merv16 Filter
Lennox ComfortSense 5000 Thermostat

Price is $8200

- The XC-15 was about a grand more for the 'quietness'
- Guy said the HW VisionPro IAQ was a good thermostat, but overkill for what I need - would also cost around $400 more than the ComfortSense 5000
- My setup above will give me a 14.7 SEER

This sounds like a pretty good deal - I saved about $1500 moving away from the HP to the XC14.

Furnace = XV95 (Model# TUH2B080)
A/C = XL15i (Model# 4TTX5036)
CleanEffect Electronic Air Filter
HW VisioPRO 8000 Thermostat
Coil = 4TXCB036

Price = $9000

- TRANE has a rebate program starting Sept 1, so if I wait till then, I'll save $400 more
- The $9000 includes $875 for the CleanEffects electronic filter - a good airfilter is important for my child's allergies

I've got Lennox dealer #2 coming on Thursday - but I got a rough phone estimate from #2 based on the model#'s from Lennox dealer #1. Lennox # 2 seems much lower (over two grand!). BTW - I didn't share quotes among the Lennox dealers - that's not right to do. Candidly, part of the reason I think the Lennox dealer #2 is cheaper is b/c our area's social-economic status tends to attract the higher prices. Lennox dealer #2 serves our area, but is located in the next county over. Just FYI...

Any thought on the TRANE setup?

THANKS!

Just something for her to think about.

scottmel, good luck with your decision. We are lucky to have people like Ryan and Tiger to help us non-hvac people make informed decisions.

Without seeing a load calculation, I don't know how many BTU's you require, but if I were to go off just the square footage, I'd want as much of those 36,000 BTU's as I could get.

Lennox setup: 33,800 btu's
Trane setup: 35,200 btu's

The Lennox CX34-43 will give you 34,600 BTU's.

Heat pumps aren't really any more difficult to install than a gas furnace and coil. The air handler is one piece, unless you're going with a dual fuel setup with a heat pump, coil, and gas furnace.

The Trane dealer may be willing to come down in price, but the question is what corners will be cut (if any). $1800 isn't really normal sounding over a Lennox system. The equipment shouldn't judge whether a quote should be higher or not in all cases. Sometimes a Goodman bid might be higher than a Trane bid if more work is involved with the Goodman bid and the Goodman dealer just has higher prices.

several observations.

1.there is a great deal of difference between the Lennox G71P and Trane XV95 furnace.

The Lennox G71P has multiple heat settings between a range of heating BTUs. I assume that the furnace "reacts" by adjusting to the heat loss. Perhaps Ryan can better explain as this is a relatively brand new model for Lennox.

The Trane furnace is simply a two stg var speed 95% eff furnace. It has a low stg and a high stage.
TUH2B080A9V3VA 40 17.5 28 49,500 / 76,000 95.0

2.On the AC condenser,I don't think either the Lennox or Trane dealer has given you the best choice for the evap coil. This contributes to the low BTUs. Ask your salesman about this. There may be a better choice.

3.It is my opinion that for over 99% of residential homes, a good 4-5" pleated filter media cabinet MERV 10 is more than adequate for indoor air quality and protecting the evap coil and blower motor. EACs like the CleanEffects can be problematic and the homeowner needs to know the regular maintenance/cleaning frequency that is required to make these filters operate correctly. For some, this may be a task/committment that you are not willing to make. For these 4-5" filters, they can last up to one year and replacement takes a few minutes. Very easy. There is of course, the cost of a replacement filter.

4.The Trane ext warranty parts/labor is probably worth minimum $500, max $700.

5.you need a load calculation for AC cooling. I am concerned about this area.

6.For either system, I would insist on the HW VisionPro IAQ.

While I like Trane better than Lennox, I don't think the Trane system should be any more dollars. And nothing is wrong with telling the salesman.

IMO

Lennox G71MP-36B-070 Furnace
Lennox XC14-036 Air Conditioner
CX34-3813 Coil
Merv16 Filter
Lennox ComfortSense 5000 Thermostat

What coil do you recommend to get max BTU's? I'll take your recommendation and ask him outright.

I'll also insist on the HP VisionPro IAQ for no extra charge - they all say it's overkill and I don't need it, but I'll say otherwise!

Thanks again!

Thx, SC.

It looks like the CH33 coil gives better performance and BTUs. But I am not sure if it is applicable for her situation. Hopefully Ryan or Tiger can confirm if this is a valid option or not. I apologize if this information is incorrect.

ARI# for the CH33 coil: 1488024

Cooling Capacity (Btuh): 35000
EER Rating (Cooling): 12.70
SEER Rating (Cooling): 15.00

ARI# for the CX34 coil: 1488009

Cooling Capacity (Btuh): 33800
EER Rating (Cooling): 12.20
SEER Rating (Cooling): 14.70

Sorry. :-)

Lennox G71MPP-60-090 Furnace
Lennox XC-14-036 Air Conditioner
C33-49C coil
HW VisionPro IAQ Thermostat (dealer actually strongly recommended this w/o my asking!)

EER is 13.2 and SEER is 15.7

Total estimate is around $7500

How does this sound?

One other question - to make installation easier, he proposed moving the location of the outside A/C from the North side of the house to the East side. No problem on noise here (by garage and facing backyard), but I've read that North side is best and this would be the East side and in more sun. Is this a big deal? Otherwise, he's gotta run some bends in the copper line...

THANKS!

He was thorough on the load calc - went thru the whole house - room sizes, window counts, and also noted the return vents. No one else did this! Even asked the direction of the morning sun, what rooms were above the ceiling, etc. and I pointed out any "new" additions since we purchased the house.

We plan on signing the deal tomorrow, so wish us luck!

Taking into account that the units aren't rated at 80* indoors, and looking at the load calculation's resultant sensible and latent heat loads, will a 3-ton system really have the capacity (both sensible and latent) to satisfy the cooling needs at maximum design temp and with the thermostat set at 72*?

I assume the new Lennox dealer has quoted a larger mdl furnace so that it will accept a larger coil to provide improved performance metrics on XC14 AC.

Like Ryan, I am concerned about the AC sizing. At what outside and inside design temps was the cooling load calculated?

I don't care what the outside temp is-whether it is 10 degrees Fah in the winter or 98 degrees Fah in the summer. I just want to be comfortable. Assuming the load calc for AC is correct, then you are borderline undersized and I suspect on a very hot day, you will be a very unhappy camper. If that's acceptable to you and your family, then leave things alone. For me, I would go for the 3 1/2 ton XC14 model-no problem with the HW VP IAQ stat. Of course, ductwork must be checked. I just don't want to be borderline for AC BTUs.

IMO

Outside Temp = Heat 5 / Cool 95
Inside Temp = Heat 70 / Cool 75

He's seems very on the ball and upfront in sharing how he calculates this stuff...he even gave me some examples of other cities and how they are different.

have to agree with Ryan if your intent is a setpoint of 72 degree. ask your dealer to plug that number into his cooling load calculation.

on those hot days, I would expect a three ton to be unable to maintain a 72 degree setpoint, unit would run continuously, and that your home's inside comfort would be questionable.

of course, this is your decision. a close call for those extra hot days.

And BTW, this should be a comfort decision because the cost diff for your dealer to the 3 1/2 ton model would be relatively inconsequential. He should just charge you his cost.

TD

any final decision and install?

TD

congrats on your new system.

yep, these high eff condensers are as big as a small car.

the only question/concern I had was the size of the AC. as long as it's cooling your home, maintaining stat setpoint of your choice, good humidity control, and not running continuously, then everything looks good.

Keep working and studying the VP IAQ.It has alot of features.

TD