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Opinion on Carrier reliability and quote and Whirlpool

Posted by washer_girl (My Page) on
Tue, Jul 12, 11 at 21:08

Hi everyone
I live in Montreal, Canada and got these HVAC quotes for my 2 storey house plus basement. Each storey has 640 sq feet. Was advised by the reps that the basement is not used in the calculation of the required capacity. My house is all electric. A fairly quiet noise level is important to me.

I would like your opinion on the following quotes:

Carrier Performance Series
2 TON HP 15 SEER / 8 HSPF, Silencer System II, equiv to 69dB
programmable digital thermostat by Aube or White Rogers (no mdl number given)
electrostatic air filter that is washable, does not use throw away filters (no manufacturer or mdl number given)
includes all new piping for the Puron gaz
15KW furnace (no mdl nunber given, was told there is only one model of furnace from Carrier
1 yr labour/10 yrs parts for both HP and furnace
6995

Whirlpool Gold WGHp44 Seer 14/HSPF 9
2.0 Ton Quiet Partner (was told it is about the same noise level as the Carrier performance)
programmable digital thermostat (no mdl name or manuf yet)
air filter (no mdl number or manufacturer yet)
15KW furnace WAHME
warranty for heat pump:
lifetime replacement of unit for compressor failure/10 yrs labour/10 yrs parts
warranty for furnace:
10 yrs labour/parts
includes all new piping for R410A gaz
5500

On the surface the Whirlpool has it hands down, but it's pretty unknown here as an HVAC provider. This firm has been selling it for one month and they push it much harder than the Carrier system although they are certified Carrier dealers. I am a uncertain about the reliability and the service for the Whirlpool.

Please let me know your comments on both products, and if anyone has comnents on the Whirlpool product. Was told it's been around for 15 yrs in America, and made in Florida or Houston. I don't want to buy a re-branded Goodman, since Goodman/Amana also own this Whirlpool brand.

I also received a Lennox quote for the Elite XP14/CBX27UH for $7400, but I don't have as good an impression of Lennox heat pumps from what I read on the web. So I'm learning towards the above Carrier quote at this point.

thanks.


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Opinion on Carrier reliability and quote and Whirlpool

washer
model numbers count. provide number for both outside and inside unit.
tell us about your winters and average temp.

what size system are you replacing? what size heat strip do you have now?

for your location, I would not purchase a new system that does not have
electronic demand defrost.

there are three equally important components-quality HVAC, the install by dealer, and probably the most overlooked and disregarded is the ductwork system.

these are my minimum specs for a new HP system. both outside and
inside units should be replaced to have a properly matched system.

15 SEER, 12.5+ EER, 9 HSPF
best matching VS air handler
full BTUs in both cooling and heating for your rated size
R-410a refrigerant(same as Puron)
scroll compressor preferred
electronic demand defrost preferred
thermostat with "dehumidify on demand" feature
staged backup heat strips
new and correctly sized refrigerant lineset
10 yr warranty compressor and parts

you want a thorough inspection of your ductwork system. size, overall condition, supply and return lines, insulation qualities, leak test, etc.
any hot/cold spot issues in your home should be addressed.

I would only use authorized dealers for the various brands that provide quotes. see mfg websites.

I would look at Trane/AmStd,Rheem/Rudd,Carrier/Bryant.

I would not purchase a new HP system that did not have electronic demand defrost.

IMO


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RE: Opinion on Carrier reliability and quote and Whirlpool

I think the Whirlpool HP is rebranded Goodman equipment. I have not seen anyone mention it on any forums I follow in the US. I suspicious of a contractor who would push the Whirlpool product over the Carrier. I find this strange.

You need to get model numbers for all your equipment regardless of what brand you buy. There is no reason for the contractor not to do this.

If you do go with the Carrier equipment, then insist on a Carrier thermostat.

Do you really need an electronic air cleaner. A 4 inch media filter is less money, requires little maintenance, and can be very effective.


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RE: Opinion on Carrier reliability and quote and Whirlpool

Being in Montreal and involved in the industry, I don't understand why you wouldn't be encouraged to install a variable speed fan coil unit, particularly with a Carrier Performance HP, as well as a Carrier thermostat (Infinity or Edge).

Is your electrical entrance 200-amp?

Have you considered dual energy with Hydro-Québec's (DT) bi-energy rate?

Have you considered GazMétro's sizable incentives?

Have you been advised of the pending federal subsidies under the ecoENERGY plan and how to proceed accordingly?

Frankly, the prices seem very low for our region. There's a lot more than just price; I would be suspicious...

IMPO

SR


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RE: Opinion on Carrier reliability and quote and Whirlpool

I will work on getting the model numbers and post them as soon as I have them. Hopefully it will not be more than a few days. I don't know what is meant by heat strip, I asked 2 of the salesmen and neither understood it.

Some answers to the replies so far:
-Winters here can range from 0C to -25C. (13F to -13F). So the furnace will definitely kick in regularly
-my current 20 yr old RHEEM is 2.5 Ton. My current furnace is 20KW. It was explained to me by two reps that the calculation of capacity is done differently now, using guidelines of 800 sqft instead of 600 sq ft as in the past, so 2.5 Ton would be considered oversized now.
-I currently have an EAF, but since the furnace package also includes a new air filter in both cases, I'm thinking of changing it out
-I have 200 AMP
-I will not consider dual energy. Gaz Met does not serve my street, and I will not go to oil since don't want an oil tank in the house.
-Who knows when the Federal program will kick in again? So far it's expired....So I'm not considering it until the fat cats in Ottawa move their butts.
-Agree the Whirlpool quote is very low. The Carrier quote however is almost the same as another company, which quoted $100 above that.
-The Lennox quote from Costco was $7400 (includes a current coupon special for $400 off this month). A competing quote for the same equipment was $8100.
-Except for the Whirlpool and Trane, the quotes from 4 companies range from $7400 - $8100. Trane was $10k, but this is out of my budget.
-I was told that Rheem/Rudd is not offered by the companies I contacted, because their warranty is guaranteed by a 3rd party, and not the manufacturer. I have not been offered AmStd, Bryant or York by any company. The latter 2 don't seem to be common in my area, have never seen them.

Thank you, and I'll come back with the model numbers soon.


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RE: Opinion on Carrier reliability and quote and Whirlpool

I could be mistaken but I think the whirlpool is made by armstrong. Considering it has a 10 year labor and 10 year parts warranty with that contractor I would go with it.

Make sure it has a 10 year labor warranty. Thats a very good deal.


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RE: Opinion on Carrier reliability and quote and Whirlpool

no, the Whirlpool is made by Goodman/Amana. Another company pushed the Whirlpool as well, but I did not mention them earlier since they never came back to me with a quote.

I've emailed the company, asking for the outstanding model numbers. No response so far. Is everyone on vacation these days?

Does anyone have an opinion on whether the Lennox Elite XP4 / CBX27UH is equivalent to the Carrier Performance model?


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RE: Opinion on Carrier reliability and quote and Whirlpool

Here is the updated quote:
-2.5 TON Carrier Performance HP
-15 Seer/8 HSPF
-Programmable Edge Thermostat
-Air handler model FY5BF030000 15KW
-Electrodust Air Filter
-new pipes
$6995

I asked about variable speed and was told the Performance is single speed only.

Can someone explain what is meant by staged heat strip? The rep did not understand the question.

Gosh there is a heat wave going on...


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RE: Opinion on Carrier reliability and quote and Whirlpool

The Carrier Performance HP comes in two models. The 25HPA5 is a single stage compressor, and the 25HPA6 has a two stage comressor.

I can't find any information on the air handler you listed. I think it is a single speed Base series model. I did find the product data for the FY4CNF series fan coil. Check your model number. I think you are missing a character.

According to the Carrier document, the last three zeroes (000) of the model number indicate there is no factory installed heater. Is the heat strip external? Staged means that the 15KW heat strip turns on in 5KW increments. I am not sure if the Edge thermostat has that capability.

I don't want to misinform you about the heat pump. Tigerdunes can give you better guidance on this.

You should insist on all model numbers and verify it is an AHRI match.


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RE: Opinion on Carrier reliability and quote and Whirlpool

Washer girl

I will assume the HP condenser is Carrier's Performance 15.

It should be paired with Carrier's var speed air handler-FV mdl.

You do want staged heat strip as mentioned above including the Edge thermostat.

Refer back to my original post. I would not have a new HP system without demand defrost which this system does not have.

iMO


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RE: Opinion on Carrier reliability and quote and Whirlpool

I THINK the nomenclature difference is 'heat strip' is the same as 'electric furnace'. I may be wrong. But down here, an 'electric furnace' is just electric coils (and nothing else) that heat the air. Usually it would be a high number of kilowatts (like the 20kw you have). With a heat pump (down here), we don't need that much heat, so the 'electric furnace' electric coils are replaced with something much smaller. We call them 'heat strips'. Far enough south and we don't use any at all.

Usually, these 'strips' come in separate sections. They can be wired together to turn on all together, or wired separately to turn on in 'stages' by the thermostat, depending on how cold a day it is. The 15kw you are speaking of might be available as 5/10 or 7.5/7.5. This saves you money on those days when you don't need the full blast from the 'furnace', only a bit extra.

This 'staging' is similar to staging of the compressor, where the compressor can run as Medium and High.


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RE: Opinion on Carrier reliability and quote and Whirlpool

Thanks everyone for helpful comments.
I've also just figured out that heat strips means furnace.
Talked to the rep today. (He does not not seem to be up to speed on exact model numbers, has to doublecheck a lot).

-The 2.5 ton performance quote is confirmed to be the 25HPA6, 2-stage compressor it is SEER 15. Tigerdunes, is this what you mean by Carrier Performance 15?

-the furnace is the 15Kw FV4. Rep confirmed that it heats up in increments, as needed.
Also, specs state it has a variable speed fan. Tigerdunes, I think this matches what you posted.

I had just decided to go for this Carrier, but I now understand what is meant by demand defrost and it seems extremely desirable. But if this model does not support it, is it possible for Carrier to update it only with this feature? If not, I would have to start at square one for another alternative.

Carrier Infinity or Trane are out of my budget.

I had decided against Lennox XP14, however it looks like it has demand defrost.

Rheem/Rudd/AmericanStd/York have not been offered by any of the 5 companies I contacted so far, although I could find York by going to other companies I'm sure.

Was told Rheem/Rudd warranty is guaranteed by a 3rd party, so will not go there. Bryant/AmericanStd have not been offered at all.


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RE: Opinion on Carrier reliability and quote and Whirlpool

York/Luxaire/Coleman are the same company and they have demand defrost. I know for a fact the Luxaire brand isn't that expensive of equipment and I believe its good quality, and has lots of features.


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RE: Opinion on Carrier reliability and quote and Whirlpool

washer girl
you need to determine the size you are getting.
be aware the Performance 16 only comes in full ton sizes, no 1/2 ton.
4384123 Active Systems PERFORMANCE 16 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HPA636A**31�� FV4CN(B,F)003�� 34000 12.50 15.50 36400 9.00 22000 1 HRCU-A-CB Yes�� 256 726 Yes
� 4384291 Active Systems PERFORMANCE 16 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HPA636A**31�� FV4CN(B,F)005�� 35200 13.00 15.00 37200 9.30 22200
If you are getting not a 2 1/2 ton but a three ton Performance 16 system, then these should be the configuration and best air handler choices-either the FV4003 or FV4005.
Demand defrost can not be added.
IMO


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RE: Opinion on Carrier reliability and quote and Whirlpool

thank you for the clarifications. I checked the web again and there is no mention of demand defrost for the 25HPA6 nor for a 2.5 Ton unit.
I spoke to the rep again and he swears it is demand defrost (not timer defrost), and indeed a 2.5 ton.
He is coming over tonight and I told him to bring proof in documentation, then I would be willing to sign the contract if so.
That is where I'm at right now.


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RE: Opinion on Carrier reliability and quote and Whirlpool

Washer girl

Ask quoting dealer to provide you the AHRI HP Directory matching number on system he intends to provide. I will be glad to look it up for you. Post this before you sign any papers. Frankly, your dealer is not being honest.That would be enough to make me run, not just walk away.

To be Clear the single stage Performance 15 HP condenser is available in 1/2 ton sizes. No electronic demand defrost though on Carrier.

Sorry, something just not right here.

IMO


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RE: Opinion on Carrier reliability and quote and Whirlpool

Apologies for being offline a few weeks.

I decided against Carrier since I would like demand defrost. Further, Carrier Canada informed me the 25HPA6 is not available in Canada. I've given up on this HVAC company, too much wrong information.

I'm now looking at Rheem, based on comments from this forum that it is good quality equipment.

RPQL-030JAZ
Classic Series
2.5T, 15 SEER
10 yr parts
1 yr labour, additional 4 yrs available at $230
Scroll compressor
New piping for the R410A
White Rogers Thermostat, waiting for the mdl number.
$4500

I also asked about the matching furnace, and was discouraged from doing so, as the rep claimed it was not needed. Actually, several contractors told me it was not necessary, as my existing furnace is functional and can be modified. So,
I've now decided not to change my existing furnace. The contractor will modify my existing furnace to accomodate the indoor coil. My existing ductwork can be re-used.

This dealer does not sell the JEZ series.

Thanks.


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RE: Opinion on Carrier reliability and quote and Whirlpool

Washer girl

Something still not right here.

When you say furnace, I assume you are speaking of your inside air handler.

You will not have a matched system unless you replace both outside condenser and inside air handler.

If you don't do both, then just a big mistake you will regret.

And I would want the JEZ type RPQL.

What size heat step? I suppose none if you still plan on keeping existing inside unit.

Good HVAC but you would be crippling its performance if you keep existing air handler.

Post back.

IMO

Here is a link that might be useful: Rheem RPQL Heat Pump


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RE: Opinion on Carrier reliability and quote and Whirlpool

About the carrier company pushing whirlpool. The company agrees to sell the whirlpool if whirlpool gets them their leads simple as that.


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RE: Opinion on Carrier reliability and quote and Whirlpool

Yes, when I refer to furnace, I meant the inside air handler. The quote for a matching furnace is $3800, which I am thinking I don't need to spend, since my current air handler (a 20 yr old Rheem) is working.I do have budget restrictions, so am trying to make a compromise to get a good system. I understand that I will not get optimized performance from the heat pump, but I'm thinking it will take a long time to make a furnace upgrade pay off for these reasons:
-Quebec electricity is still affordable; I currently pay about $1500 a year for my 2 storey house
-the 5 companies I called (all selling different brands) all stated there was no need to waste money when the current furnace still works, although they could sell it if I wanted it
-the heatpump won't work at optimum efficiency, but it will still be a lot more efficient than what I have today, so should still see savings
-the aircon will only be used for 3 months of the year
-the furnace takes over heating when it gets colder than -10C, which is about 4 months of the year

I admit I have not done any calculations to confirm my theory, but I will attempt to do so shortly. Have been out of town last week.
My current furnace is a 20KW model, which does heat up in increments.

The thermostat quoted is the White Rodgers IF70.


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RE: Opinion on Carrier reliability and quote and Whirlpool

If you live in Montreal, money is tight and your Hydro bill is only $1500/yr why do anything? Unless you really want A/C...

SR


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RE: Opinion on Carrier reliability and quote and Whirlpool

yes I'm doing this because I really want airconditioning. Can't handle heat very well unfortunately. This summer was hard for me.


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RE: Opinion on Carrier reliability and quote and Whirlpool

Well. After spraining my ankle, having car troubles and declining to pay the 25% downpayment demanded by the JAZ rep (I would have done 10%, but 25% IMO seemed excessive, most other local companies only ask for payment on day of installation) I'm finally back on track.

I found a dealer that carries the JEZ line, and I think it's a pretty good offer so I'm going for the matching air handler (and will postpone my new car until next spring :-))

Rheem RPQL 030JEZ
RHLL-HM3617
Programmable Emerson thermostat 1F98-EZ 1441

Includes all installation including new piping.

Sounds ok?


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RE: Opinion on Carrier reliability and quote and Whirlpool

Washer girl

A very nice HP system.

Has electronic demand defrost.

New refrigerant lineset included?

What size heat strip to be installed? If 15 KW, then you want this staged in 5 KW or 7.5 KW increments.

Here are the numbers.

3393439 Active Systems RHEEM RPQL SERIES RHEEM MANUFACTURING COMPANY RPQL-030JEZ � RHLL-HM3617+RCSL-H*3617 � 30000 13.00 15.50 29000 9.00
18300

IMO


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RE: Opinion on Carrier reliability and quote and Whirlpool

the heating and air gods would be proud of that system.MUCH better than what you started these post with. You should be pleased.


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RE: Opinion on Carrier reliability and quote and Whirlpool

Today the system was installed. The installer was professional and direct and answered all my questions.
We ended up going with a Honeywell YTHX9321R5079 thermostat, and I'm thrilled with it. I also purchased an optional 10 year labour warranty for $465, which gives me some peace of mind. Worth it to me.

The system provides 18 KW heat, staged in 6 kw increments.
New lineset was included, and he threw in an outdoor sensor so I can see the outdoor temperature in the comfort of my home :-)

Thanks to everyone on the forum, your comments and suggestions really helped.

Tigerdunes, I appreciate your comments and patience with the various options I presented.

Merry Christmas and best to all in the Gardenweb community.


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RE: Opinion on Carrier reliability and quote and Whirlpool

Washer Girl

You have a very nice system which you should notice quickly as far as improved comfort over old system.

After several weeks, it would be appreciated if you pst back about your initial impressions.

I really think 18 KW heat strips staged or not is way too much. However, if they are staged, you should be OK. Just for info, 18 KW is about 57 KBTUs.

Congrats again.

TD


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RE: Opinion on Carrier reliability and quote and Whirlpool

Hello everyone.
I would like to report that after a few weeks with my new system I'm quite satisfied! There is no problem at all with the heating, but I do find two issues:

1/ when the airhandler is blowing, it is quite a bit louder than my previous system and i can hear it quite noticeably through the ducts on the floor. The installer suggested he could decrease the speed of the fan to make it quieter. I havn't had him come in yet. Does his suggestion make sense?

2/With my old system, I had the habit of keeping the fan on all the time and felt it was very comfortable. The installer suggested I keep the fan on auto, instead of on. I've been doing this, but feel that the heating is not quite even, i.e. between the warm air, I feel cooler periods. What is the recommended setting for the fan? There is also a "circulate" setting. I'm not sure why I wouldn't want keep the fan on continuously unless there is a risk of wearing out the fan part prematurely.

The heat pump is a bit louder than I thought it would be; but it is much quieter than the one it replaced. So overall it's fine.


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RE: Opinion on Carrier reliability and quote and Whirlpool

Washer girl

You are certain old system was a 2 1/2 ton system or was it a 2 ton system?

The symptoms you describe are typically ductwork related. Dealer should be called back and evaluate what if anything can be done to ductwork.

Also, I would reduce the CFM setting on air handler to 350-400 CFMs/ton.

There is nothing wrong on running system in recirculate. Try it. The cost is inconsequential since you have a high eff blower motor.

Post back and let us know what adjustments installers suggest and make.

IMO


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