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bevangel_i_h8_h0uzz

blown-in insulation around HVAC units in the attic

We need to add blown-in insulation to our attic to raise the R value to something approaching suggested values. We already have roll-in insulation but that was poorly installed by our builder and, even if it had been installed correctly, there is far too little of it. Just 9 inches of Owens Corning batt which, I think, is supposed to give us R-30 but it was so poorly installed, I doubt if we're anywhere close to that.

Anyway, the problem is that our HVAC units are in the attic. (Yes, I know, the attic is a really really stupid place to put HVAC units - especially in Texas! Suffice it to say that when we had the house built, it was NOT our plan to have the HVAC in the attic. In fact, we have two large utility closets where the units were supposed to have gone with the ductwork then being run thru open web trusses between floors so that everything would be within the heated/cooled envelope of the house. BUT, our sorry-a55ed builder unilaterally decided to ignore the specs on our plans and save a little money by using i-beam joists instead of the open web joists specified. That decision made it impossible to run the ductwork between floors as planned which in turn necessitated the two units going into the attic... along with about a gazillion miles of flexible ductwork. GRRR! My blood still boils whenever I think about it! But at this point, there is NOTHING we can do about that short of taking the entire second floor off the house and rebuilding.

But to get back to my current question: What do I need to take into consideration about the two HVAC units when adding blown in insulation? Do I need to be worried about keeping the insulation off of the two units or some specific distance away from them?

The heaters are propane heaters (Carrier brand, I think). Don't know about the AC part. They two units are laying on their sides and those things are HUGE so just trying to get over/around them to reach the parts of the attic that they block requires a contortionist...and a skinny one at that! So adding additional batt insulation would, I think, be impossible.

We're not planning to tackle this project until the weather cools off some, maybe around October or November, but I'm trying to get a handle on what I need to know well in advance. If I need to provide more info, like the model number of the units, I'll be happy to climb up into the attic and find out but I'd appreciate any guidance anyone can provide.

Thanks in advance

Comments (3)

  • energy_rater_la
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    define poorly installed batts.

    if there are gaps between batts blown will fill them in.
    but if there are voids where the batts don't lie
    flat on attic floor/living space ceiling...then
    these areas need to be corrected before
    installing more insulation.
    blowing insulation over batts not in contact
    with attic floor doesn't really help at all.

    do you have service platforms around the units?
    there should be a 3' walkway to and around
    units for service.

    check & see if batts were installed under unit platforms
    and walkways...water heaters too if they are in the attic.

    understand that under heating system you'll only
    have R-30, which is code here in La. how about in
    Tx? at max we put R-38

    I don't know what value you plan to insulate to...
    what is your goal?

    and what is the purpose of the added insulation?

    I find it is usually air leakage into the house that
    people try to solve by adding insulation.
    it never works unless the new insulation both
    insulates and air seals. (foam ins) with propane
    you'd have to add combustion air if you foamed
    the roofline. many insulation companies don't understand
    how to do this...nor to hvac companies.

    air sealing is easier with batts than with any other
    insulation. move the batt...do the air sealing...
    put the batt back.
    do you have recessed lights? IC or ICAT? the IC lights
    are a big leakage to living space.
    were ducts mastic sealed?
    or just duct/foil tape?
    returns in attic mastic sealed?

    to find leakage in attics...look for discolored insulation.
    as air leaks from attic into living space it pulls air
    thru insulation, this leaves dirt trails.

    you can find the same dirt trails on insulation
    on ductwork.

    always, always do air/duct sealing prior to insulation.
    and ducts should be suspended with 3" duct straps.
    the last thing you want to do is to put insulation around
    ducts in a hot humid climate. works ok in dry climates...
    but for us...it causes the ducts to condensate.

    best of luck.

  • bevangel_i_h8_h0uzz
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thank you for your response! I'll try to answer your question below

    define poorly installed batts. We have gaps between bats AND some sections where batts don't lie flat on the attic floor. Builder's insulation subcontractor originally tried taking the 9inch thick batts and slicing them in thirds (like slicing bread) to make three 3 inch batts that he thought I would accepts as the correct insulation! These were laid between joists. When I caught onto the subterfuge, he claimed that he hadn't been aware of the cheating but would make sure the insulation was done over properly. Instead, he allowed them to just drape 9 inch batts perpendicularly across the joists over the top of the 3 inch thick slices. Because it was very difficult for me to get up into the attic (attic ladder hadn't yet been installed), I trusted builder to make sure it was done over correctly. It wasn't and it is a MAJOR mess. To the extent that we are able to reach the batts, we intend to pick them up and reposition them correctly or just take them out. But there are areas behind the heaters that the only way to reach is by crawling over the heaters so we were hoping we could just blow insulation into those areas without first repositioning (or taking out) the batts. Guess not.

    do you have service platforms around the units?
    there should be a 3' walkway to and around
    units for service. The units both lay beside a platform so it is easy enough to get to one side but there is no walkway "around" them.

    check & see if batts were installed under unit platforms
    and walkways...water heaters too if they are in the attic. there are batts between the joists that the units sit on. Whether the batts extend the entire distance under the units were only put in place at the very edges to make it look like underneath the units was insulated, I honestly don't know. Will have to pull a couple out to check. Thanks for suggestion.

    understand that under heating system you'll only
    have R-30, which is code here in La. how about in
    Tx? at max we put R-38. We're outside of a code restricted area but under our contract the builder was supposed to have built to meet code requirements of the nearest major metro area which, at that time was R-30 in the attic. New recommendations for this area are R-50. I'm not sure what the nearest metro code now requires.

    I don't know what value you plan to insulate to...
    what is your goal? and what is the purpose of the added insulation? We would like to get as close to R-50 as possible even if some parts of the roof are only insulated to R-30 or lower. Seems like it is good to insulate as much of the attic as possible to R-50 to reduce heat transfer between attic and living areas.

    I find it is usually air leakage into the house that
    people try to solve by adding insulation.
    it never works unless the new insulation both
    insulates and air seals. (foam ins) with propane
    you'd have to add combustion air if you foamed
    the roofline. many insulation companies don't understand
    how to do this...nor to hvac companies.
    air sealing is easier with batts than with any other
    insulation. move the batt...do the air sealing...
    put the batt back. Not sure I totally understand you here. Our attic is not sealed. We have ridgeline vents and soffit vents. So far I haven't seen any signs of inadequate ventilation in the attic and I know that we need to leave space for air to circulate between soffit vents and ridge vent. We intend to be sure to leave the baffles in place and not block either end. As for air infiltration into the house, the house is pretty tightly sealed. We fired the builder before the interior walls were insulated or sheetrocked and I personally went around with cans of spray foam filling in every crack where I could see light coming thru the exterior shell. All the gaps around exterior electrical plugs, etc. Then we hired a different insulation sub to install the wall batts and I checked every piece of it before sheetrocking started. So, the house is tight.

    do you have recessed lights? IC or ICAT? the IC lights
    are a big leakage to living space. We do have recessed lights. They are ICAT. (I've checked).

    were ducts mastic sealed?
    or just duct/foil tape?
    returns in attic mastic sealed? I don't know. What should I look for to find out? And if just duct/foil tape sealed, what is the proper way to fix it and is this a job a homeowner can do or will we need to hire pros? I'm assuming this should probably be done before blowing in additional insulation so one is not having to tromp over and thru the blown in insulation to reach the ducts to work on them.

  • energy_rater_la
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I absolutely hate it when these messy installs are done.
    I have a friend who's batts are installed similar to yours.
    what to do but take them out & reposition them??

    as one who climbs over heating systems & thru all that mess...its diy for me. BUT you have to be careful where you put your feet, only on joists. unless you have solid sheeted ceilings...
    I use 1x12 walkboards 4' or 6' long...any longer & they are too hard to move around.

    and of course the mask, razor knife to cut batts & long sleeves & gloves. I can't breathe in masks, & just wear short sleeves,,,but the trick is to not scratch the first time...or you never stop. home to hot shower...then cold.
    good lighting is also necessary. & take advil prior to getting into attic!

    so to go from a questionable R-30 to R-50 have ins co blow fiber glass. don't make the mistake of cellulose it
    gets into the house thru every gap...supply box & bath fan cuts in sheetrock.

    glad that your recessed are ICAT.that solves
    a lot of issues. but if you drop the trim...you'll see
    the cut thru the sheetrock is oversized too...just like
    supply & bath fans. I'll attach a pic of how to seal from
    inside the house.

    good that you took it upon yourself to do the air
    sealing during construction.

    as for ductwork...when unit is running ...early in
    morning ...make your way carefully to unit. feel around
    and under plenum connections (both supply & return).
    then feel on supply plenum where ducts are taken off
    the plenum. if you have flex push the insulation back
    (insulation is usually covered by foil jacket) move ins
    & jacket back & see if you see signs of condensation.
    or openings into the plenum.
    if the ducts are mastic sealed you'll see a gray paint mastic making the seal. some companies use hvac caulk.
    don't just look at the top..feel around sides of duct & esp on bottom. this is where they usually miss sealing.

    duct tapes & foil tapes don't last long in extreme attic
    temps. thus the use of mastics. mastic should be thick..
    nickel thick is what code says.

    I use CCWI-181 paint on mastic...about $15 at hvac supply. the ONLY tape I use is Hardcast brand #1402
    mastic tape. reflective plastic face with red writing, gray mastic backing. thick & strong. 3" wide by 100' long about $25 per roll and worth every penny.
    this is the only tape I've found that seals metal to metal,
    metal to wood, sheetrock paper, foam board, plastic etc.
    as always surfaces have to be clean & dry. tape is pressed down to make a good seal. my hvac supply house usually gives me a small credit card sized squeege that works well to seal the mastic tape.

    see attached. this is a supply box sealed from inside the house with hardcast 1402. trace lightly around grill,
    remove making note of which way the grill was installed.
    cut lenghts of hardcast widthwise making width 1.5" wide
    place tape on sheetrock...staying within lines where grill will cover it. fold the tape into the supply box & seal it to
    the metal flange. it won't stick to insulation in the box. but will seal well to metal & sheetrock. press to seal, then take a small piece to re-inforce corners.
    re-install grill.
    do same at sheetrock cuts at bath fans, housing of recessed lights to sheetrock covered by trim piece.

    this will make the air seal between living & attic space.
    these are the leaks I find blower door testing.
    the methods of sealing are ones I've come up with
    in my years in the business. I test before & once work
    is completed. some house I re-test years later.
    so these seals last. unlike foams, duct tapes etc.

    best of luck.