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ellessebee_gw

Advice on correcting HVAC work under contract

ellessebee
10 years ago

If you've been following my questions on this forum you know that the GC doing our renovation used an HVAC sub who installed inferior equipment that did not conform to the contract specs. The GC is taking responsibility for allowing the sub to install ICP air handlers when they should have been Carrier or Trane variable speed, with matching 16 SEER condensers. But both the GC and sub insist the ICP is as good if not identical to the Carrier. No condensers have been installed yet and the CG is offering Heil or Carrier. We have had the system evaluated by 2 authorized dealers or Trane and Carrier. Both said they are not familiar with ICP but from the looks of it, the air handlers are not variable speed. In addition, there are several other issues with the installation that they don't find acceptable. They include under-sized and too few ducts and returns, uninsulated "boxes" in the attic, the air handler in the attic is just resting on the floor, on bricks set into the pan (both said they'd have done a hanging installation with vibration isolators in the attic to cut down on noise and vibration). The list is fairly lengthy. Both asked if we had a proposal from the sub for the work - we don't - so we don't know what equipment he was planning to install or if he did any load calculations at all. In short, we would like to cut the HVAC work out of the GC's contract and take it on ourselves. I'd like to know if any of you has ever had any experience doing this, either as the homeowner or the sub or GC, and the best way to go about it. We like our GC and want him to continue on the job, we just think he was misinformed - or deceived - by his sub and probably was looking to keep costs down. Thanks.

Comments (14)

  • jackfre
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Well, you like your General. I'm assuming that he likes you. He may like you somewhat less after this, but I would suggest that you have a sit down with your GC and just lay it out. We do not like the work, the equipment is incorrect, there are deficiencies in the installation, etc. Get a bid from the guy you like the best and you then have to negotiate the deal with him and the General. I suspect that this will put the GC upside down on this, but it has been his responsibility. No one will win here except perhaps the new HVAC guy. A bit of compromise on both parties will keep the project moving forward. Good luck!

  • mike_home
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    It doesn't surprise me the installation of the air handlers and duct work has problems. In my opinion the GC knew exactly what he was paid for. Low end equipment and poor installation.

    You can try to negotiate with the GC, but I feel your best option is to get advice from a lawyer. Hopefully your contract has a material breech clause and you can settle this without a big fight.

  • ellessebee
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I've had 5 HVAC contractors look at the system - 2 Carrier, 2 Trane and 1 who does both. I gave them the same (brief) specs. All have pointed out various flaws in the sizing and location of registers, returns and ducts, let alone the fact that the mechanical equipment isn't what was in the contract. It's interesting that they don't always find fault in the same things. One said the ducts to the main living area are too small and should be enlarged, another said they're fine but the supplies to the bedroom should be moved from the interior wall to the exterior wall. The return for that room is below (and one bay over from) one of the supplies and he said it will suck out the cool air that's just blown in above it (another reason to relocate at least that supply.) Several commented on the installation of the attic air handler - that it's resting on Styrofoam blocks in a tin pan which will rust and resting on the attic floor will cause noise and vibration in the living room below. They would suspend it from the rafters and use a fiberglass pan. They all noticed no overflow sensor and no zone dampers in the 2-zone system. Is it possible that these are supposed to be installed when the final hook-ups are made (I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt)? But what's most disconcerting to me is that one would not install a variable speed Trane AH because of something to do with the configuration of the ductwork. I asked if it would be single speed and he said it would be something in between variable and single - but did not say we'd have to change the speeds manually. He also said Trane's variable speed AH is not so good since a recent redesign. None have said the ducts couldn't be resized or moved if necessary but prices are what I would consider high after reading through posts on this forum. By the way, of the 5 dealers, 3 said they'd have to do Manual J calculations and 2 said it wasn't necessary. I don't know anyone who could give me a personal recommendation - I got these names either from the manufacturer's websites or their retail sales reps. How do I evaluate? Thanks

  • jackfre
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hire an independent consulting engineer. Let the GC pay for it. It is about the only way you are going to have someone totally on your side with the credentials to back it up.

  • energy_rater_la
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    5 companies are going to give you 5 different answers.
    all will either accept ductwork as is, or find problems
    with it. each company will feel as if their solution is
    the most valid one. same with equipment.

    you have to sift thru...and make a choice.
    and stick to the choice instead of switching
    main stream to another scenerio.

    "I asked if it would be single speed and he said it would be something in between variable and single - but "
    it would be educational to know exactly what is between single speed & variable speed?? two speed? wth?

    in your posts, you've been given good information.
    I understand it is difficult to impliment this information
    into your build thru the gc & hvac contractor.
    but you pay for it...and then you live with it.

    you lack of knowledge of hvac is what is hanging you up.

    each company can tell you pretty much whatever they feel
    like..and you don't really know better. unless its been
    discussed here. and itrw...online advice isn't really powerful
    with the mindset of trades people. and if you don't
    apply the information...what is the use of asking for it?

    what you could do....if you chose to make a stand...
    is to hire an indpendent..load calc, duct sizing & layout.
    inspection of what you have...what can be kept...what
    needs to be changed..and what it needs to be changed
    to.
    then get bids for specifically what has been inspected, designed & sized.
    and to have this indenpendent third party to verify as
    install is ongoing & once completed.

    its a commitment...that truly... I don't think you'll invest in.
    but it is the right thing to do if you want to get the system
    right.

    you pay someone for thier expertiese...then you pay
    for whatever has been done..whatever modifications
    are done.
    and tradespeople talk..every company in your area
    knows what is going on. so you'll pay well for re-do.

    in your other thread you've lowrated luxaire on & on as
    cheap builder's grade equipment.
    EVERY brand has builder's grade equipment.
    people get too hung up on name brands.
    every brand has a lesser advertised brand.
    it is the combination of equipment for efficiency
    and the install of the equipment & design sizing
    & install of ducts that makes or breaks an install.
    you can put a mismatched greenspeed or xi20
    in on a crap duct distribution system..and you'll
    pay top dollar for crap. poor performance, no comfort
    but you'll have a pretty name tag to feel good about.

    people need to plan for hvac & not let it be
    an afterthought...esp in hot humid climates.

    my luxaire 15 seer heat pump with variable
    speed air handler keeps RH to 52-55% ALL
    the time. I've used my whole house dehumidifier
    very seldom...and can lower RH as low as I
    want it. but because I planned on dehumidification
    prior to spending a penny...I got my RH needs
    addressed by the efficiency of the a/c & the vs
    ahu. of course it helps that I save 25% every month
    by putting my R-8 mastic seald ducts inside the
    conditioned space & not in the 130 degree
    vented attic.
    I went into the install of my system with everything
    planned & designed with the end game in mind.

    understand that you can buy an a/c unit...that can
    come with several different tags to be put on it.
    because...guess what..most are the same componets
    on the insde.
    so what brand do you want to call it today?

    and what if you get someone to agree to whatever it
    is that you decide you need? you going to pay
    for what the first contractor did? he didn't donate his
    time & materials to you. how does that work out in
    your mind?

    re-read your threads...pay attention to what you
    have been told repeatedly.

    pay indpendent..get someone what actually
    has a clue...or get ready to pay for what you have
    for a long time.and understand that contractor number
    one...the one you didn't pay attention to untill too late
    that did a lot of work already...he gets paid too.

    good luck...you'll need it.

  • energy_rater_la
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    and you should sign up for this low cost webinar.
    excellent information for you & q&a with alison bailes.

  • ellessebee
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I appreciate all of your advice and suggestions - but not particularly the scolding. I would hire an independent HVAC consultant if I could find one in my area who does small residential work. Most are commercial and would charge double the cost of ripping out what I have and replacing it. Yes, money is a big consideration given that this is brand new construction, a custom built house that was supposed to be my retirement home, into which I put my retirement fund. I just learned that my GC has a contract which his HVAC sub to do basic, builder grade equipment, not name-brand or variable speed anything, contrary to the contract I have with him. Why do I care about labels? I don't, really. I don't know anything about HVAC equipment other than what I can read in a place like Consumers Report. I cannot evaluate the quality of one brand over another so far be it for me to say Luxaire is worse than Carrier or Trane is better. But I can look up the brands on-line and in CR or other publications geared to homeowners and see what they say. I have no interest in being an expert - I just want equipment that is reliable and will handle the cooling load of my house. My architect specified Trane or Carrier under the assumption that they were solid brands and that to be an authorized dealer required some degree of training and vetting by the manufacturers. That's what every builder bid on. To have my GC change the rules in the middle of the game is not right. To demand what I was supposed to get is my right. The question is how to do it without losing my builder when the house could be finished and I could be living in it in about 2 months, given the little that remains. The purpose of having 5 HVAC subs look at the job was to try to get 3 realistic bids to compare, as I was advised by people on this forum. I assumed that 2 might not show up or submit proposals as it is busy season for them and they have plenty of business. But all 5 came and all of them seemed interested in submitting proposals, although I still only have 2 on the table. One has come back a second time to take additional measurements of existing ducts. I asked one not to go to the trouble of bidding because he said he was at least 4-6 weeks out and I didn't want to put the job off so long. There is even a 6th guy who would be happy to take a look but was very forthright in telling me he is primarily a commercial shop and while he could do a great job, would be much more expensive than a residential outfit. I am trying to do the due diligence I didn't do upfront but assumed my GC was doing on my behalf. You can scold me for that. But to have an HVAC engineer come in for complete and proper evaluation AT THIS STAGE would be nearly impossible with the walls closed up. If we open the walls to reveal the ductwork and insulation it will required a lot of re-work. I have to be pragmatic because I missed the boat on doing it right the first time. If I could afford it, i'd rip open the walls and start from scratch. But I can't. yes, I'll need luck, but I also hoped for advice on the basis of the difficult position I'm in. I'm sorry if you can't empathize with a naive and trusting homeowner who seems to have gotten ripped off and just wants to get on with her life making the best of what can be salvaged. At my age, life is too short. I can assure you that whatever happens, contractor #1 will not get paid for what he hasn't done yet and the cost of any remediation that can be done by a new (and I hope better) HVAC contractor will be deducted from any amounts I may owe him (that's per a clause in my contract with him. I learned from several of the HVAC people who came that things like zone dampers and float switches are missing - that's useful information. Also all finish work like registers and thermostats are missing and not yet paid for.) I'll still need luck, though, so thank you.

  • ellessebee
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Where can I find the Webinar you are referring to? I did find something by Allison Bailes and it was very informative and accessible even to a real novice homeowner. Can you post a link?

  • ellessebee
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I appreciate all of your advice and suggestions - but not particularly the scolding. I would hire an independent HVAC consultant if I could find one in my area who does small residential work. Most are commercial and would charge double the cost of ripping out what I have and replacing it. Yes, money is a big consideration given that this is brand new construction, a custom built house that was supposed to be my retirement home, into which I put my retirement fund. I just learned that my GC has a contract which his HVAC sub to do basic, builder grade equipment, not name-brand or variable speed anything, contrary to the contract I have with him. Why do I care about labels? I don't, really. I don't know anything about HVAC equipment other than what I can read in a place like Consumers Report. I cannot evaluate the quality of one brand over another so far be it for me to say Luxaire is worse than Carrier or Trane is better. But I can look up the brands on-line and in CR or other publications geared to homeowners and see what they say. I have no interest in being an expert - I just want equipment that is reliable and will handle the cooling load of my house. My architect specified Trane or Carrier under the assumption that they were solid brands and that to be an authorized dealer required some degree of training and vetting by the manufacturers. That's what every builder bid on. To have my GC change the rules in the middle of the game is not right. To demand what I was supposed to get is my right. The question is how to do it without losing my builder when the house could be finished and I could be living in it in about 2 months, given the little that remains. The purpose of having 5 HVAC subs look at the job was to try to get 3 realistic bids to compare, as I was advised by people on this forum. I assumed that 2 might not show up or submit proposals as it is busy season for them and they have plenty of business. But all 5 came and all of them seemed interested in submitting proposals, although I still only have 2 on the table. One has come back a second time to take additional measurements of existing ducts. I asked one not to go to the trouble of bidding because he said he was at least 4-6 weeks out and I didn't want to put the job off so long. There is even a 6th guy who would be happy to take a look but was very forthright in telling me he is primarily a commercial shop and while he could do a great job, would be much more expensive than a residential outfit. I am trying to do the due diligence I didn't do upfront but assumed my GC was doing on my behalf. You can scold me for that. But to have an HVAC engineer come in for complete and proper evaluation AT THIS STAGE would be nearly impossible with the walls closed up. If we open the walls to reveal the ductwork and insulation it will required a lot of re-work. I have to be pragmatic because I missed the boat on doing it right the first time. If I could afford it, i'd rip open the walls and start from scratch. But I can't. yes, I'll need luck, but I also hoped for advice on the basis of the difficult position I'm in. I'm sorry if you can't empathize with a naive and trusting homeowner who seems to have gotten ripped off and just wants to get on with her life making the best of what can be salvaged. At my age, life is too short. I can assure you that whatever happens, contractor #1 will not get paid for what he hasn't done yet and the cost of any remediation that can be done by a new (and I hope better) HVAC contractor will be deducted from any amounts I may owe him (that's per a clause in my contract with him. I learned from several of the HVAC people who came that things like zone dampers and float switches are missing - that's useful information. Also all finish work like registers and thermostats are missing and not yet paid for.) I'll still need luck, though, so thank you.

  • edwardo
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    What ever happened with this? Did you get your HVAC problems solved?

  • jennyross
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    for quality contracts for HVAC maintenance and repair ... www.rileyheatandair.com ..
    Riley Heat And Air is widely famous in furnace service, air conditioning maintenance, heating and air conditioning maryland, furnace repair, in Maryland, U.S. Other services such as air condition service, air conditioning repair, heating furnace services also provided by Riley Heat And Air in Maryland, U.S.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Air Conditioning Service Upper Marlboro : Furnace Repair Maryland Blog

  • ellessebee
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I am no where near your service area and don't appreciate the blatant sales solicitation. That is not allowed on this ADVICE forum, although if you were in my area I might have considered calling.

  • SaltiDawg
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    ellessebee,

    Well I do live within their service area... I would NEVER use them!