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elaineycabaney2

Need Help Narrowing Choices, got load calc.

elaineycabaney
10 years ago

Thanks tigerdune and mike_home for your previous help w/load calc questions.

I am getting very different recommendations from 4 vendors on my single story 1928 brick bungalow located in the Upstate of SC. It is 1200 sq ft, old windows with storms (except none in sunroom), R-30 insulation in attic only, partial basement with sump pump. For a heat pump the electric service would need to be upgraded to 200 amps, cost $800 w/new meter. I keep vent shut off to sunroom due to lack of air tightness. I will hopefully sell this house within a couple of years.

The existing system is a 3 ton Carrier PROPANE Gas Pack (outside unit) with a bad compressor that is 12 years old. Apparently Carrier no longer makes replacement parts using the old antifreeze. The ductwork is primarily metal (except to sunroom), has R-4 insulation and was originally installed for a furnace, then modified poorly for the gas pack.

Here are the load calculations I figured on loadcalc.net:
Total Btu's Cooling: 29,796
Total Btu's Heating: 29,093 at 35 deg. outdoor temp
41,329 at 22 deg. outdoor temp
Sensible Load: 28,689
Latent Load 1,107

ESTIMATES:

VENDOR #1: Recommends a hybrid system, tying into old ductwork:
Carrier 25HCD336 (Heat Pump)
Carrier CNPHP36
Carrier 59SC2A080 (Furnace)
Btu/Seer: 3 ton 13 Seer
Programmable Thermostat
Total $6,159

Goodman GSZ13036 (Heat Pump)
Goodman CHPF36
Goodman GKS9090 (Furnace)
Btu/Seer: 3 ton 13 Seer
Programmable Thermostat
Total $5488

Locate Furnace in Basement, heat pump outdoors. Add supply to kitchen. New Pad, Drain, New Copper Line set, Reconnect ductwork, Reconnect fuel piping, PVC flue Reconnect control wiring, Install new power wiring, Get Mechanical/Electrical Permits. Remove existing system. Check new system. Fact. Authorized Startup.

VENDOR #2: Recommends a split system with all new ductwork (says it's leaky and inefficiently designed). However $7200 is just out of my budget and won't recoup costs so alternately quoted on heat pump in basement closer to/better to tie into existing ductwork:

Lennox 2 1/2 ton Heat Pump Model#13HPX-030 13 Seer
Lennox 2 1/2 ton Blower Coil Model CBX25UH-030
Digital manual change-over thermostat
10KW electric heater
Interconnecting refrigerant tubing
All materials to tie into existing ductwork
Electric to be done by others ($800)
Drain for removal of condensation
Patch hole in foundation with pressure treated plywood
One year Warranty on labor from Company
Limited Ten year Warranty on parts and limited Ten year on compressor from Manufacturer
$4,175

Options: Replace ductwork ADD to price, $1,525
For Tempstar Heat Pump, same price as Lennox
For Carrier Heat Pump, ADD $500
For 93% gas furnace and 2 1/2 ton A/C tied into existing ductwork, ADD $1,500

VENDOR #3: Recommends a split system, tying into old ductwork. Says that extended warranty of $350 for 10yrs is transferrable to new owner...REALLY??

Amana AMH950703B & CAPF3031B
95% AFUE 13 Seer Btu's Cooling: 30,000 Btu's Heating: 70,000
Non Programmable Digital Thermostat
Remove existing equipment. Install new equipment pad and vibration isolation pads, all new lines, vent/cap, drain sets, low voltage wire, tie back into existing ductwork and seal. Charge to mfg.'s specs
$4,583

VENDOR #4: Recommends replacing with a gas pack to best recoup costs, tying into old ductwork:
American Standard Model #4YCC3036 Silver SI
10 year Parts, 2 year labor
Remove old gas pack only, Install 3 ton 13 seer R-410A gas pack, Install 1 supply vent in kitchen, Install booster fan for sunroom, Minor ductwork repair. Electrical, gas piping and all material as needed. New digital thermostat.
$4,500

I have used both Vendors #1 & #2 and are both certified, reliable, prompt and professional. Vendor #3 comes recommended, listed by Amana as dealer but not certified & #4 is a neighbor's sons company that is a certified dealer.

Thanks in advance for your help. Let me know if you need more details.

Comments (5)

  • tigerdunes
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Several questions.

    Why are you going from a gaspak to a split system?

    I am not clear why the electric service upgrade unless this is unrelated to your HVAC project. Be specific please. If you don't know, my question deserves an answer.

    A few observations about quotes.

    Vendor #1 seems to be grossly oversizing you on heating. I won't comment on the systems themselves.

    Vendor #2 has quoted on an all electric HP system...not a fan of Lennox especially their HPs

    Vendor #3 has quoted Amana which s nothing more than upgraded Goodman which I would avoid...

    For now, I am not commenting on AS quote #4.

    Just to be clear, you have propane for heat? Nat gas service is not available.

    How would you describe your home's building and insulation properties for a 1928 brick bungalow home?

    Post back.

    IMO

  • elaineycabaney
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks Tigerdunes and sorry for the delay but my response didn't get posted.

    I believe that the split system was recommended for comfort/fuel savings/layout of ductwork. Same thing for hybrid system.

    I would describe my home as average build and insulation for a 1928 brick bungalow. R-30 batts in attic only. I rated it as below average & poor for the load calc.

    The electric upgrade to 200am is necessary for use with a heat pump only. Also, supposedly would not pass inspection.

    Propane fuel--no natural gas available.

    Hope this provides more clarity.

    The points that you bring up regarding the quotes are in sync with my reservations as well.

    Thanks so much

  • mike_home
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    What are paying for propane and electricity? I would think it would be more cost effective to heat with a heat pump given your mild winters.

  • elaineycabaney
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Propane cost have been around $2.70 per gal. this past year but can vary.

    Electric rates are 9.145 cents per kwh up to 1000 kwh and 10.016 cents over 1000kwh.

  • tigerdunes
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    For upstate SC, I would also forget about the propane and go all electric.

    I would also get a competitive quote from a certified electric contractor about electric service upgrade.

    New Heat Pump System

    Here is my general spec sheet for new system.
    both outside and inside units should be replaced to have a properly matched system.

    15 SEER, 12.5+ EER, 9 HSPF
    best matching VS air handler
    full BTUs in both cooling and heating for your rated size
    R-410a refrigerant(same as Puron)
    scroll compressor preferred
    electronic demand defrost preferred
    thermostat with "dehumidify on demand" feature
    staged backup heat strips
    new and correctly sized refrigerant lineset
    10 yr warranty on parts and compressor

    you want a thorough inspection of your ductwork system. size, overall condition, supply and return lines, insulation qualities, leak test, etc.

    any hot/cold spot issues in your home should be addressed.

    My personal recommendation is Trane/AmStd, Rudd/Rheem, and Carrier/Bryant.

    Depending on your location, I would not purchase a new system that did not have electronic demand defrost.

    IMO

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