ajChicago69: you probably don't realize it but you illustrate the point in your post above where you said you've changed the capacitor 1 time in 6 years. I can sympathize with you on the job loss we've all been thru tough times so I can fully relate to that.

But 1 time in 6 years illustrates the plight of a HVAC business owner. How does a business survive on 1 call every 6 years? This is exactly why so many HVAC companies fail at least in my area.

Certainly everyone reading this thread should realize that the HVAC business is mostly seasonal summer time business. For me in the south, I can not count on winter heating calls ever. I would never recover advertising costs for heating season in my market.

This is a good conversation guys because it highlights why things are the way they are. The HVAC contractor ( owner operator) isn't out to rip you off, the costs are just far more substantial than you realize.

The bigger companies these days (the ones that advertise on TV, Radio, Bill Boards, Blanket Google Ads, Full page telephone book ads) are more or less salesmen. Very few if any of them know how to do much more than just sell. The objective of these companies is only to sell. They have numbers to hit, if they don't hit those numbers they are likely gone in short order once the fall season hits or some dirt is gotten on them for something they did.

HVAC is a numbers game based on volume. The higher the volume a company hits the less it needs to charge to make a profit, but the more companies there are in a given area the higher those prices will be. Those that do not charge enough will cease to exist. (volume dries up once school starts back after summer vacation. --- bills keep coming, month in, month out.)

This business in many areas of the country is often referred to as "Three months of Hurry!, Hurry!, Hurry! --- 9 months of worry, worry, worry!"

I've got customers that I've installed equipment for that are counting on me to be there when they need service again. So running this business the "right" way doesn't always appear to be right in the eyes of those looking from the outside in that don't understand what it takes to run a HVAC company successfully.

Sunrise, yeah I know the numbers are very low... but I was trying to be as fair as possible. There are companies here that run "free" calls, but there is no "service" in free. That is the difference folks.

In the end, I do not think those companies, large or small, who charge $400 - $500 for a $10 capacitor problem (the most common problem) will exist, only those who find a way to give real service to those who need real service.

For the record, a capacitor is not the most common problem. While they do go bad from time to time it is only one part among many that fail.

To all..

the thing is it will always be too much to spend on something that you and you and I don't want to spend our hard earned money on, and when we have to we will complain about the cost, it's human nature folks. As a contractor and a consumer I totally get it. It a cost a contractor more than the part to provide the service no matter how low you keep the overhead. Anyone who can fix their own ac safely should do so, people who want service can opt to pay for it. As for the guy who has a large company coming out there are advantages. They usually give you the top spot and faster service. They should not be scamming you. Some insight. I was breilfly an Opts manager for a larger company recently. $85000 a year salary and I quit because the guys and myself were hounded for revenue. The techs were told to be honest but when they didn't produce we got beat up. They said to the general manager, hey you told me to be honest and I was and now I'm being hammered. The guys in the middle are usually the best bet. They won't be the cheapest but they normally do good work, tell it to you straight and don't sell you something you don't need. If they recommend replacing most likely they're trying to save you money in the long run.

If a contractor knows a system shouldn't be repaired and does, he's double dipping. Gets the repairs and replacement. There is more than one way to look at what being ripped off is.

A note: Capacitors usually go out for three reasons, a power surge, motors that are out of spec due to age and/or lack of yearly service. I recommend for anyone to find a honest guy and have yearly service and know it usually cost the contractor more to provide the yearly service than he charges.

The $29-$69 guys are spending more just to come out than they are charging, hence why they try and sell. Pay $99-$129 and most likely you'll get honest techs. Isn't a little more worth a piece of mind and no headaches? I wish we could provide it for free, I've ask my workers, my landlord, my auto finance companies, my utilities companies, my vendors to chip in to help people but they said no to me.

I also think the dielectric material of a cheaply made capacitor is going to breakdown faster then one then has better materials. The capacitors in my original Carrier condensers lasted 25 years without failure. The ones being made in China today are not going to last anywhere near that length of time.

@mike

you are so right. There are American made capacitors that last longer. In the past, due to people wanting everything cheap we were using Supco capacitors which were failing like flies in two weeks sometimes. We went to Ameticsn made and only replaced if we thought there wasn't another bad part that would take out the new capacitor. There have been times when we declined a repair because we knew it would most likely keep breaking down. That's no win, if we fix it and it breaks down again clients are angry, if we don't fix it clients are angry. This is not a fun business anymore. It used to be at one time when people appreciated us getting the cold air blowing. The old days people spent an hour in the yellow pages just to reach a live person. When we fixed the ac they were all smiles and hugged us. Now with the net we are bad guys. It's funny when people spend time just to get a guy on the phone and can come out the same day, that used to make people smile, now we are just someone asking for a check.

@ajChicago69: I'm also in Elk Grove, CA. Could I private message you as I'm looking to replace a capacitor and I guess I'll have a hard time finding a place to buy one. Thank you!

You can get them online at eBay or Amazon (very reasonable). I got my "spare" from one of them, but the two prior I bought in Sacramento from a supply store that sells them to the public. Hard to find! I can't come up with the name but will post if I do. As I type.... Standard Appliance. http://www.standardsupplyusa.com/

Austin Air Companie, I beg to differ with you. For the record, where are you getting your numbers? I researched it, myself.

J J, don't know if I mentioned it, but Youtube had very good "how to" videos on replacing them. Piece o cake....

Best to install it "upside down" (contacts down). One of they guys behind the counter at Standard Appliance gave me that tip, and someone in the biz here confirmed. That keeps the liquid electrolyte in contact with the windings? Too technical for me, but he seemed to know what he was talking about. Just make sure there is NO WAY for the contacts to short on anything underneath them.

Thanks so much, I searched Amazon and found them, yeah, really inexpensive on there, but may not be able to wait. I'll check out Standard appliance. We're hoping it's just the capacitator but it may also be the fan motor. Hopefully, not more than those two things. Current symptoms are fan wouldn't run unless we turn it off again and hubby gets it going with a screwdriver/stick, "jump starting" it, and then it dies again after awhile, but the outside unit does work and inside is fine, just pushing non-cool air... last night was kind of rough with two kids under 5...

What is most important to take from this discussion is that as a homeowner, we must have a general knowledge of how the systems in our house work. If you do not, then guys like Mr. Sunshine can rip you off for hundreds of dollars. I always try to educate myself as to any repair that needs to be done..be it home system, auto or appliance. If you do not, the Mr. Sunshines of the world are waiting to bleed your wallet.

My I suggest grainger supply company? They are online and sell motors and capacitors very inexpensively. I am lucky we have an outlet in our city. Often I get parts cheaper there over the counter than their online catalog.

Graingers is ok, but prices are not very good compared to other internet retailers, nor is their selection for something like this. I got my latest capacitor at this place: Capacitor - Run Capacitor - Dual Run Capacitor - SupplyHouse.com

Also you don't need to set up an account, anyone can order.

AjChicago: I run AC service myself. My numbers are my own, capacitors may be some where around 30%-40%. I have a shed full of dead equipment waiting to be broken down and recycled.

PS: After much more thought and thinking I realized I over estimated this. It's probably closer to 10-20% of the time.

"This keeps the internal liquid surrounding the plates better and extends life of the capacitor."

This really makes no sense. The "liquid" is something like wet cellulose. (think tightly wrapped brown paper towels, that are then dampened) If the position mattered, the manufacturers would somehow have a notation to indicate it, as is the case with high wattage commercial light bulbs.

David....And gravity would tend to pull it down and away from the terminal end over time? Here's another "how to" that supports what makes no sense to you. I did it this way on advice from an old pro. Works. And why would manufacturers want to extend the life of their capacitors if they didn't have to? http://www.ronstultz.com/knowledge/Documents/HVAC/HVAC%20-%20How%20to%20Replace%20the%20Run%20Capacitor%20in%20the%20Compressor%20Unit.htm

and another example... https://dengarden.com/appliances/How-to-Change-an-Air-Conditioning-Capacitor

HVAC equipment manufacturers buy capacitors from third parties. If installing them upside would make a difference then you would think every capacitor would be upside down so the HVAC system would have fewer break downs.

A capacitor is composed of two plates separated by dielectric material.These plates are connected to the terminals on top. The plates and dielectric are rolled up inside the can to save space. If there is liquid inside the capacitor it would have to be filled to the top.

The thinner the dielectric, the more capacitance you can achieve per square inch of plate area. But if you make the dielectric too thin, then the electric field can destroy it causing the plates to short out. The liquid itself also breaks down due to heat and high voltage stress.

Some of the chemicals used in older capacitors like PCBs have been banned. This makes it more expensive to build a long lasting capacitor. It can be done, but people don't want to pay for them.

It doesn't hurt to install upside down, just don't expect much of a difference in life expectancy. But if anyone has data to the contrary, I would love to see it.

You provided no "data to the contrary" and I'd like to see that, too! I would NOT think that anyone (many?) making money off of installing capacitors would install them to prolong life. On the contrary, the sooner they fail the more they can make. I don't have the data to show you, but I will install mine upside down. Don't shoot the messenger!

Not shooting the messenger, just giving you what I know about capacitors. The only data I have is the capacitors in my 25 year old Carrier equipment were installed right side up.

I agree that a repairman would like to see repeat business so he is not going to go out of his way to make a capacitor last longer. But a manufacturer, who has to cover the warranty of the parts for 10 years, and would like to make his equipment appear more reliable than his competition, would install capacitors upside down at no additional cost in the manufacturing process.

Well Mike, the manufacturer would have to spend more money on training to make certain the employees are turning them upside down after 30 plus years of installing them terminal side up. LOL.

Voltage spikes, power surges, brown outs etc. do more to damage a capacitor than the position in which it's installed.

If you install it terminal side down, you're going to have a nice mess to clean up if the canister bulges and explodes. (The real reason we don't install them terminal side down.)

#Common Sense 101.

AJchicago: We lay awake at night thinking of ways to get at your capacitor money. LOL.

Austin, exaggeration and passive aggression not really appreciated. Inside my a/c case you'd be much better off with a downward "explosion" toward the tray than toward the wire harnesses and up and out the fan opening to the stucco house, and there are plenty of my unit in the neighborhoods sitting next to stucco houses. What kind of mess if there is no liquid inside?

exaggeration? Well I have 21 years of seeing things in person in this field. So while you may think what I say is exaggeration - I can assure you it is not... but that requires you to have belief and I know belief in anything these days is fleeting.

What kind of mess if there is no liquid inside? If there is no liquid inside we are not talking about run capacitors any longer.

Austin... I ask again. What kind of mess when there is NO LIQUID inside the cap (as earlier stated by another expert)? Since this IS THE REASON you install it up instead of down I am trying to picture, but I'm having a hard time seeing the mess caused by dry cardboard, wrapped tightly, with glue-like electrolyte in between the folds.

ajchicago:

I told you. If there is no mess, you are talking about a start capacitor, not a run capacitor. Two different things, with different purposes.

run capacitors are filled with a die electric fluid, start capacitors are not.

Austin: No. You didn't. You insinuated that there would be a mess installing capacitors upside down, making no differentiation between run and start capacitors, and gave that as the reason you installed them terminals up, and insinuated "WE" installed them terminals up as if "WE" included all in the industry "in the know"..... thus my exaggeration comment. The advice I passed on, and those pictures of start capacitors upside down, are from folks in the industry with many years experience. I replied only to that comment. That's all. oh and almost forgot.... LOL.

apparently, even though AC run capacitors are "poly caps" and not aluminum electrolytic, they are _still_ filled with a dielectric oil, cf:

http://datasheet.octopart.com/97F8038-Genteq-datasheet-8815537.pdf

So in other words, all big caps found in AC units used for motor running or starting have some kind of liquid in them. Either polar and/or water based for aluminum electrolytic caps, and oil/non-polar for polypropylene caps.

AJ, your insistence there is some kind of "capacitor orientation conspiracy" is hilarious. The capacitor manufacturers put the right amount of liquid in, whatever it is, and if a specific orientation is required, the spec sheet will note that. Apparently (yes, I've actually researched this to be sure) some through-hole cap makers like Nichicon do specify an orientation for certain large aluminum electrolytics, but only to insure the correct functioning of the pressure relief valve during a thermal breakdown event.

It's as if, in your version of the physical universe, a nurse giving an injection would have to "shake the alcohol pad" before opening it, to be sure the alcohol hadn't settled in the bottom of the packet! Of course this is never the case...the nurse opens the packet and whatever orientation it has been in, the whole pad is saturated. Capillary force can and does overcome gravity...and isn't even needed when there's enough liquid to fill the voids left inside the cap. anyhow.

We're in Tucson AZ, it's 110 degrees outside and INSIDE our house was registering 105 degrees because our a/c went out. We have a Rheem 3 ton 13 seer. Turns out it was the capacitor, it cost $265 ($95 for the trip and the rest was parts and labor). He fixed it in 15 min. We were just thankful it wasn't $400. I don't think $265 is too much. I don't think you got ripped. Often service repair is not based on the part nor the amount of time it took. They have to make a living and keep their business afloat too. $215 what you paid is fine IMO.

Davidrt28, where in the world did you come up with "conspiracy?" I was just trying to pass on knowledge. Have you ever opened up a start capacitor? You will find that they are NOT "FILLED" with electrolyte liquid. It's not as though there is liquid flowing around inside the container. There is paper with electrolyte wrapped inside of it... not much electrolyte at all. I don't know why you felt you had to poke something rude into the conversation. Your comment is not hilarious, at all. It is sad. I think you speak from ignorance and that's what I was trying to help alleviate with some facts I came across via research and an "old sage's" experience. I install my own start capacitors for $15 and 15 minutes... upside down. Just had mine serviced because it wasn't cooling. 4.5 lbs of R22 coolant and a little vial of leak stop and about 20 minutes later, it cost me over $900! Two other companies wouldn't help me if I thought the problem was coolant! Amazing! Now there is customer service for you! $900 for coolant! .... (and, of course, no guarantee of a fix). $265 isn't much, at all, Brian.... in comparison, but you could have done it for $15 - $40 and a half hour of time.... after U-tubing a little "how to" research. By the way, I later found that I could have legally purchased 5lbs of R22 (for a licensed person to use) for <$150. Hmmmmmm

"By the way, I later found that I could have legally purchased 5lbs of R22 (for a licensed person to use) for <$150."

Maybe, but you'd have to provide the contractors EPA license number and it would have to be shipped to his business address. And I'm not sure if you can ship R22 across state lines.

Not if bought off of Craigslist or local eBay sellers. That's where I found it. I see some there in both places now again. I also have a willing tech to do a "side job." That's what it takes to fight the ripoff prices. Plus, RS410A (used in new equipment), the replacement for RS22, does not require certification. Seeeeee ya! :)

I'm so sick of zombie threads on site. Going to email Houzz with the suggest anything started before a certain date gets locked. This is getting ridiculous.

AJ, you made me had to re-read a bunch of this. I agree with you that cap replacements are often a ripoff. You are simply wrong about orientation mattering for anything other than practical reasons. (i.e., where the wiring harness is) End of discussion. I don't care what 'old tech's tale' is circulating out there. You said 'David....And gravity would tend to pull it down and away from the terminal end over time...And why would manufacturers want to extend the life of their capacitors if they didn't have to? ' That is what I was responding to. Sounds like a conspiracy to me. But gravity just can't do that in this context, period!

At any rate, you don't seem to understand how product liability law works in the US. If cap makers knowingly made caps that needed a certain orientation and then didn't properly advise users on that, they would be sued out of existence.

"AJ, you made me had to re-read a bunch of this."

You're kidding, right?

Occasionally an old thread benefits the community by re-opening with updated status.

If your panties get wadded up, go to the bottom of the old thread and "Click to switch off notifications about new comments."

I just did so to avoid any more nonsense about old threads!

You're kidding, right? You had to go reread an old thread that got resurrected by someone, get your own panties all wadded up, and then insult a contributor who is trying help others be aware of things. WOW... talk about nonsense. What was that all about? What problem did you have with anything there?

WOW... talk about nonsense.

Yes, indeed, you posted some nonsense!

Best to install it "upside down" (contacts down). One of the guys
behind the counter at Standard Appliance gave me that tip, and someone
in the biz here confirmed. That keeps the liquid electrolyte in contact
with the windings

https://www.gamut.com/c/motors/motor-capacitor-mounting-hardware

"Mount capacitors in any position by using mounting hardware."

https://inspectapedia.com/electric/Starting_Capacitor_Wiring.php

"Start/run electric motor capacitors can be mounted in any direction or position."

https://en.tdk.eu/inf/20/25/ds/B32350_B32352.pdf

"mounting in any position possible"

Go do a google search for yourself on "capacitor upside down". Maybe you'll learn something. http://www.ronstultz.com/knowledge/Documents/HVAC/HVAC%20-%20How%20to%20Replace%20the%20Run%20Capacitor%20in%20the%20Compressor%20Unit.htm

Speaking of "normal"... https://www.doityourself.com/forum/air-conditioning-cooling-systems/496422-capacitor-condenser-unit.html

As I said, I got this tip from an old, retired HVAC pro who now runs a business supplying the HVAC industry in Sacramento. Seeing others mention that they found them upside down or asking about it makes me believe there is probably something to it. It's not that they fail if not installed upside down, it's that upside down will lengthen the life, especially in very hot climates like Ca. and Az. Your argument about manufacturers is mute/pointless. They make their product so that it can be installed either way or horizontal. It's up to you which way you think is best. I decided to rely on a retired HVAC pro with many years of experience who supplies the local HVAC industry. I'd bet on that.

"It's up to you which way you think is best."

I'll trust the engineers and chemists who design the things!

And what are those engineers' and chemists' take on it? I only see opinion. Even one of the links (2nd link, the 1st doesn't even discuss it) you supplied states: "Start/run electric motor capacitors can be mounted in any direction or position. However there are some other capacitor mounting considerations that can affect capacitor life: basically you want to minimize the capacitor's exposure to vibration and heat." NOTE THAT HOWEVER. I just don't wee what point you are arguing.

The spammer returns with yet more in-depths insights(^^^^^^)!

The part was $15 on amazon, it took 5 minutes plus got the ac hosed, gave the guy $ 100 for all for his time

By "hosed" I assume you mean cleaned with a hose. Whole lot better than getting ripped off for $500, huh? Glad an old thread did some good.

"It's complicated", that's what I tell my wife when we had a start capacitor replaced on our 2012 Carrier outside fan unit. The cost of the part was maybe $40 tops, so why were we charged $325? "Well honey, if I knew what the problem was I would have fixed it myself, Air Conditioning repair is like going to the Dentist". We pay a bank load of hard earned money to a professional who has a huge monthly nut to crack, that's the American way, right?

$215 is cheap, I charge at least $250. $300 if it is in hard reach area. (like on the roof)

I charged myself $15 and 20 minutes... and bought a spare! ;)