I'll let someone more knowledgeable comment on whether the pricing is reasonable, but I'll share some thoughts:

-People I know who have installed tankless water heaters have regretted the decision. Unless you get a very top of the line model (which are very expensive), they can't supply as much hot water at one time as a convential unit. So, if two people are showering, or there's a shower when the dishwasher is filling, the hot water gets cooler. Also, in the winter when your supply water is quite cold, it may not be capable of enough of a temp increase for a real hot bath, for example, or washing dishes. Lastly, there's no payoff, you'll rarely save enough in utilities to pay for the increased cost of the unit and installation.

-Often when there are rebates, tax credits, or some other kind of cost sponsorship of different actions, the cost to do it will go up, as you suspected. Is there enough of a difference to forgo the rebates or cheap financing? You'll have to answer that.

If what you have is working, I'd wait. It's unlikely that these steps will come anywhere near paying for themselves anytime soon. Do the less expensive things now and let the more expensive steps wait until you have equipment failures. The availability of rebates or cheap financing isn't a good reason to fix what ain't broken.

Sounds like a reasonable price for the work and equipment.

NJ is one of the most expensive states to live, is highly taxed, and HVAC is no exception as far as pricing goes.

Move to another state and it will be less expensive.

IMO

it is really hard to get an existing house so
tight that gas appliances have to be power vented
or tankless. most existing homes have no need
for fresh air as they are not tight enough to
require it. to achieve air sealing below
.30 air changes per hour..takes a LOT of sealing.

if they had done air sealing on existing homes
they would know this.

what kind of prices for the air sealing?
what is it they propose to do?

best of luck.

The quote says they will be sealing "all areas of communication between exterior (attics, basements, crawlspaces, and garages) and living areas as specified by BPI air sealing guidelines." The blower door said I have leakage of 2950 cfm50 and I think they want to achieve as close to 1837 cfm50 as they can.

Have no idea what that really means, but it is what the "NJ home performance assessment summary report" said. This is from when the guy did the blower door and checked the pressures in different rooms. They then took the info he gathered and put it into a computer somewhere (with the state utility??) to arrive at figures of what I would save energywise by different measured.

For example, a 15.2 SEER, 96 AFUE furnace, .66 hot water heater, air sealing, 8" of fiberglass should result in energy savings of 20.907....This gets me a 4k rebate.

If I do all of the above but instead get a tankless water heater my savings is 26.597 and I qualify for the 5k rebate instead of the 4k. This is how the tankless comes to cost me "only" 500 more than the powervent...

Anyway....I was told the air sealing is why I need the powervent, I believe it is part of the health and safety requirements. They are also changing my dryer vent from flexible foil to solid.

I still don't know if it is TRUE about the venting, but 3 companies told me so......

I still think the cost quoted to me for the Carrier is higher than if I weren't getting amazing rebate...I

Cindy,

I know you have put a lot of work into analyzing your new system. I had a few questions:

What is the annual cost to heat your house?
What is the annual cost to cool your house?
What is the annual cost to make domestic hot water?
If you move from house before the 10 year finance loan is paid, do you have to pay it off immediately?

is the powervent a powered attic ventilator (pav)
that goes in the attic to vent hot air?

please clarify.

best of luck

I wonder if the program in NJ works similar to some here in CA. The CA rebate program involved much more than extra paperwork.

My home was very well sealed, but it wasn't going to save them any of their labor: they were going to squirm around the dirty attic into every little area where a transition between the envelope was disturbed (exhaust fans, recess lighting, etc) and anything to the exterior, like weather stripping. They were also going to do as you stated: change all the exhausts to be insulated and put insulated boxes around my recessed lighting.

Participating in a program here in CA was a real headache for them from beginning to end, but they were willing to do it as a cost to do business (marked up, of course). They have to staff their own in-house certified person, use their special software, and then wait until two different bean-counters checked their proposals AND then after install, retest everything again to confirm the proposed changes yielded promised results. If not, they have to correct w/out charge. All this BEFORE they were allowed to accept any cash from me. They were paid literally month(s) after the job was completed.

If you've got 3 quotes for the work and there isn't time/energy left to get more, you're stuck to decide based on the Cost/Benefit to you , not on their profit margin. Many independent business folks will tell you that's where your thoughts should be, don't stress the margin. Putting aside whether they are right or not, I'd bet the majority of consumers do it that way. They don't have the time/intellect to evaluate every detail of a proposal, especially when it's very far outside their knowledge-base.

I doubt that makes you feel any better, it never works for me for big financial decisions. But I keep trying to convince myself of that ... there's a lot more to think/worry about in life.

Cebury, you make some good points. Not sure if they are doing the outlets and stuff because my house is only 16, so it's not overly leaky as is and they have to leave some fresh air to get in. I hope they do all of that though.

I think I get a bit hung up because our hvac is fine (knock wood...it's in the 90's for a stretch now!) and our water heater is only 8.5 years old. As far as hvac we believe it will fail in the next year or two, and ultimately when we sell someone will knock our price down due to old hvac, so why not do it now and gain the rebate. I just don't want to it if I'm not TRULY gaining anything. It will take a while for the savings to pay back, but the rebate makes it worth doing. I hope.

Thanks for your insight. I over analyze many decisions. Kills me, but I am usually confident once I do decide.

so is the powervent a pav or not?

Energy rater, not sure I understand what pav is. It was explained it is like a normal water heater but has like a blower on top that blows/sends the exhaust out the PVC flue pipe. I believe it will just go out the side of the house. The old one went thru the attic in a metal pipe.

Oh wait! By pav you mean an attic fan? The fan that goes in the roof to suck out hot air? No. That wasn't brought up though I did wonder if it is a good idea in addition to insulation and sealing of attic. We had one in our town home and never thought it helped.

Mike,I have to get those numbers for you and also check on the loan thing.
I did just get my gas bill for this mo th and it was a whole $42. That is for the dryer and water. Our cooking is electric. Our electric company just got a 4% increase approved. It starts Sunday and I just read about it today.

Cindy, besides your equip rebates going away and possibly the program disappearing later? keep in mind inflation, etc.

Several years back (5?) I had an estimate for a "standard replacement" for my existing AC from a company I trusted very much. I decided to wait and use it 'till death before replacing -- well two years go by and I get another quote and lo-and-behold it's now $2000 more expensive! I was like WTH, how can that be? "Cost of copper, a code change, inflation, yadda yadda" (apparently copper/unit cost was true as distributors were only honoring price quotes for like 5 days). Ditto happens with my roof "cost of lumber has skyrocketed" so three years later the estimate was $2000 more. I even got new independent estimates to check against the same company updating their quote, as I couldn't believe it.

Here I was thinking the economy was bad, people out of work, I should get real low quotes and companies will be desperate for work. In reality, companies that "survived" were swamped with work, and roofing/hvac work wasn't something for me to risk hiring a laborer who "used to do" the work.

Maybe that was an odd bubble, but as I over-analyze like you do, I also was kicking myself pretty hard for not upgrading at the time. But again, gotta learn to let that stuff go....

Something else to think about.

I am so crazy I was even wondering how much my old copper line set was worth and if I should sell it! I'm sure they do though I don't know if they'd admit it. I also wondering how much the new one is costing and if I should consider flush and reuse...I know, bad idea.

We went through the NJ clean energy thing and considered using the program. We solicited a couple of the major plumbing and heating contractors in NJ that had a lot of experience with the program, and had them quote on what we wanted, which was a mod/con boiler with indirect WH. Our costs from the NJ Clean Energy contractors were substantially higher - essentially a good part of the rebate was built into the pricing of the work, so that you didnt really gain the benefit of the combination of NJ and Federal rebates. Is there additional work to be done like air sealing? Yes, and that makes the costs higher; but it is good stuff to get done if it helps overall efficiency and bills... But not if it is costed excessively which is what seems to happen.

Called another local well known plumbing and heating company, who we just had quoting stuff ala carte. The total was less $ to begin with, but what was interesting was that the costing for the equipment and its install as stand-alone tasks were quite a bit less expensive. Why? No pillaging of the rebates.

We are considering solar (even though there is no more NJ rebate). Talking to the solar folks, they more or less admitted that the prices were raised up because of the rebates, they took more profit because of the program, because they could, then if folks were just buying with the federal rebates, like in most of the rest of the country.

So there are a ton of things that kill cost structure, copper is expensive, if they find knob and tube wiring it has to be removed, etc. So surely a ton of risk. But caveat emptor, there are plenty of folks who want to take advantage of you, and in light of rebates that are supposed to benefit the consumer, just want to line their pockets. Some say its bad to have knowledge of this stuff or ask about it, you are just supposed to accept what the people charge you and smile - its like medieval Europe, knowledge is bad... There is nothing wrong with a reasonable profit, but a lot of the time you will get raked over the coals if not careful.

There are a number of academic studies in microeconomics that have shown that in many cases, rebate programs don't really lower the total price that the buyer pays much, if at all, when sellers have market power to increase their prices. In these cases where the rebate is paid by the gov't, much of the rebate goes to the seller/vendor side - Cash for Clunkers, 1st time homebuyer stimulus rebates, etc. That's what you're seeing here - the vendors raise prices and grab much of the benefit. That's just how free markets work, and the gov't is satisfied because consumers/buyer to purchase and stimulus happens.

Similarly, when the seller is "paying" for rebates, such as some of these class-action settlement rebates, automakers and others sometimes can raise prices enough to claw back most of the rebate. And since they are selling more volume because of the rebate stimulus, they sometimes are actually making more profit from the rebates.

That all said, it does not necessarily mean the first dealer is "ripping you off". If other Carrier-authorized dealers are quoting and getting the same prices, they are just charging what customers will pay. You alone can't change this market force; only if lots of other customers did their homework like you and refused these higher quotes, would the inflated prices come down and the rebates then go to the buyers.

You have done your homework and gotten quotes with and without gov't or manufacturer eligible rebates, and found out exactly how much rebate is getting back to you; so you can decide whether the true rebate savings is worth it.

Well said! In our experience we found it not worth it. We were getting no benefit beyond the tax breaks that the Feds were giving us. It will be interesting to see if the OP determines same.

I am going to call someone this week that participates in the program, but I'm not going to mention it. We are in the midst of a heatwave so I might wait...

I spoke to one of my neighbors, they got a Trane XC17 put in and I asked about price. I was hoping to get their figures and compare them to a Trane quote I would then get. Turns out that won't work. Neighbor is an electrician and he did the electrical and they only got a 80% furnace. We both bought our homes new, we paid for the upgrade to a 90% heater and he got the standard, I thought it was an 80, but he said it was actually only 76%. His hvac guy told him that the way his ductwork was designed it wouldn't (or couldn't?) be suitable for a high efficiency. Not sure why that would be.

Therefore, I'd have to figure out the extra cost of my new 96% furnace over his new 80% and allow for the savings he got by doing the electrical. I believe he said it was $9200 before the Trane rebate ($800?? and $500 from the state)

Any guesses what the cost difference would be between me getting the 96% and his 80% and doing his own electric??? His was really more than I expected for an 80%, but I think that is a very nice a/c that he got.

With only a 76% furnace I'd have gotten a lower a/c and redid my ducts for a 96%. I bet it would pay back! Am I wrong? Only problem preventing it would be that I think he has finished basement with sheetrock ceiling, not drop...

Ill bet with a bit of internet shopping you could at least see how the proportional cost characteristics lie. Then you could get a rough estimate from there.

If everything is installed already, how much electrical work would be necessary? I cannot imagine very much.

Not sure why the ducts would be different. The thermodynamic cycle effects the efficiency rating, not the duct.

There is no Trane XC17. There is a Lennox XC17 AC condenser. In the 3 ton size it is about a 16 SEER rating. It is a single stage condenser.

The electrical work alone is $250-$300. I was quoted this three years ago by an HVAC contractor who required the customer to hire a licensed electrican as part of the installation.

I have never heard about duct work which is not designed for high efficiency. Either your neighbor did not understand the contrator, or the contractor is not interested in installing a 90%+ efficiency furnace. Perhaps the finished basement would have made it difficult to run the PVC pipe out the side of the house.

In my opinion your neighbor paid a lot for his system. The difference between an 80% and 96% furnace is going to be $1000 - $1500 depending on the difficulty to run the PVC piping and the features of the furnaces.

Oooh, you are right. It is Lennox. I got this number off the side of it XC17-048-230-05

I don't know about the ducts. He mentioned one of the duct lines had some sort of bend or elbow that was why that room didn't get as warm (or cold...not sure). Maybe that was the type of thing he meant. Could he just mean the ducts in the basement were too big or too small? Does a 76% use different size ducts? Maybe he did just mean the PVC exhaust wasn't in place and I guess that is extra cost too.

I just can't believe he wouldn't have gotten a higher eff heater. Here in NJ the heat can be needed in October and sometimes even into April. The a/c mainly starting in May/June...some weeks you need it, other you don't. Main a/c time is June July August and a little bit of Sept. When we bought house we only upgraded heat on our limited budget. Apparently a smart move!

Googled prices. Not sure how accurate this is...but looks like about no more than 1,000 more to get most efficient from 80%..That brings neighbors potential cost to 10,200 so my Carrier est is still higher, but I have no idea if they did all the other stuff like new lineset, condensate pump (not needed for 80%?) 10 year parts AND labor... WAIT, his a/c is better than what I'd get (18 seer vs 15 or 16 Seer)..so I guess it breaks even and my quote ends up being 2500 higher....my tankless is overpriced by about 750, so I get a little benefit from rebate...maybe 2000, and the financing. Comes down to if I want to spend more to save more. I WILL get lower bills out of it....

http://www.qualitysmith.com/request/articles/articles-heating/lennox-furnace-prices/

forgot to add....gonna stop obsessing so much. I'll get a quote or two for hvac alone...Probably a Bryant and either Trane or Lennox. If they are really different I will have something to discuss with the guy who did my carrier quote. Maybe I'll just get some air sealing and insulation done. Any ideas how to find someone for just that work?

My main concern is that if the rebate program IS IN FACT a good deal I don't want to miss it. It can run out at any time before Dec 31 and may not be available next year. The rebates were higher last year and I never heard of them. I might kick myself if they are gone and my system goes next year, so I am wise to find out what the price would be without a program.

That 10k financing makes it sooo easy to just do it without much attention to cost....I did compute that if I had to pay 5% interest on the money for 10 years my payments would total 12727...2727 in interest!Meanwhile I can leave the money in my investments (possibly even losing $! but hopefully earning)

The duct sizing is determined by how much air needs to pass through and the distance it needs to travel. The duct work does not care how efficiently the air was heated or cooled. Your neighbor probably did not want to tear up his finished basement to install the PVC piping. I have a neighbor who had the same problem.

My neighbor said her contractor told them there was no point to high eff furnace because her ductwork was put in poorly. It has some bends that it shouldn't and some of it goes up outside walls that aren't insulated. Makes no sense. Of course the walls are insulated...My ducts in the upstairs all go up outside walls, they have to don't they because aren't they supposed to come out under windows?

I tried to look it up and found a site that said they should be away from doors and air returns. In our house (same builder) the vents are under the windows, usually the wall across from the doors, and the returns are near the doors. (I read the vent should be away from the return). Sounds correct to me!

I told her it wouldn't matter because no matter what the air has to get there and she'd have used less gas to heat it before it traveled the bends and went up the "uninsulated" wall. Don't know about uninsulated...these homes are insulated. Maybe no room for insulation between the duct and the sheathing though...isn't that normal?

Either she is explaining it wrong, I am wrong, OR I am glad I'm not using this guy.

One more thing. Neighbor (the electrician) said the disconnect switch for the a/c (an outdoor part?) was burnt up inside. hvac guys said these should be opened and checked from time to time. Is that true?

WAIT!!! Maybe mine don't ALL go up outside. I think maybe they go up inside and then run through the floor to come out under the window?? How do I know for sure....

The contractor is somewhat correct that connecting a high efficiency furnace to a bad set to duct work will result in less energy savings. If the duct work has high static pressure, then the variable speed motor of the furnace is going to try very hard to maintain the proper air flow. The motor will consume more power and will likely to fail prematurely. The question is why isn't this contractor addressing the duct issues? Stay away from this contractor!

The vents below your windows a problably running through the floor joists. To verify this take off the register cover and stick you hand down into the duct. You should be able to feel the direction of the duct.

If the disconnect block was burnt up, then it sounds the wrong size fuse was used. I image the connection over time became loose which caused it to overheat, but this is not typical. You should not need to check this.

Mike, pretty sure they got variable speed anyway, just 80%..Lennox SL280UH110V48C

I assume the finished basement has to do with not correcting the ducts. If they really do go up the outside wall there might not be any correcting without construction.

This guy did fix my furnace one time. I think it was what i call the Johnson control, not sure if it's really Johnson anymore or not! He came out really late because he was so busy, but he came.

I'm baaaackkk!

My contractor responded to my question to him about why the heat pump quote was so much higher than the non-heat pump quote...He didn't really answer it, but he has revised it to include the Infinity furnace (variable I think) along with the Infinity heat pump-a/c. My total payment after rebates is about 13,500. This includes the system below, 50 gal powervent hwh, 950 sq feet of r-19 blown in fiberglass and air sealing gaps in attic and as needed elsewhere.

I have no idea what a reasonable price for this Infinity system is. I know the hwh and insulation are a little high, but not crazy.

Any ideas what this hvac alone should cost? He doesn't list Infinity control but maybe that's an oversight as one of the units (a/c?) seems to require it. I would ask for it to be included in the price. This is the same price as he originally gave me for the 59TP5 furnce..the only diff is the furnace, is it much more in cost?

� Remove and dispose of existing furnace, coil, line set, and plenum located in basement
� Clean duct system.
� Install new 2-stage, 100,000 BTU Carrier 96% gas furnace. (Model 59TN6A0100E2120)
� Install new 4-ton Carrier Infinity 16, 2-stage heat pump condenser on legs. (Puron) (Model (25HNB636B)
� Install new matching Carrier evaporator coil. (CNPVP4821A)
� Install new properly sized disconnect/ whip.
� Install new media cabinet and filter. (MERV 10)
� Install new Carrier Edge programmable thermostat control.
� Install new plenum and duct adaptation to existing supply and return duct.
� Install new copper line set to connect units between indoor and outdoor equipment.
� Install new condensation removal system terminating to exterior.
� Connect to existing intake and exhaust piping to exterior.
� Includes Carrier Limited Lifetime warranty on heat exchanger.
� Includes Carrier Limited 10-year warranty on heat exchanger.
� Includes Carrier Limited 10-year parts warranty and 10-year labor warranty.
� Includes 1-year maintenance agreement. (Fall 2012 and Spring 2013)
� All UCC required permit fees included

Of course I do know that if my unit dies I could replace it with something for around 8-9k...but don't know how much Infinity would cost or if it's worth it.

Also, He wrote his in the email, "This project will save over 27% of Total usage but I used 25% reduction over the course of one year. Using your utility bills from 5/11 to 4/12 you spent approx. $2,397.00 on electric and $1,040.00 on gas. (Keep in mind this was one of the warmest winters on record. From 4/11 to 5/10 you spent $1,375.00 on gas).
Taking theses costs and deducting the 25%, we have an average monthly savings of $21.66 on gas and $49.93 on electric which equals to a total average monthly savings of $71.59.
Remove that cost from the $83.33 loan payment you have $16.74 per month payment which equates to paying back $2,008.80 on a $10,000.00 loan."

BUT, isn't part of my electric my fridge, computers and tv???
Also, I doubt the people who paid 8k got a 10yr pt/labor warranty...which does have some value.

I paid more for the same system (except an 80 AFUE furnace and no duct cleaning) in Oregon... it looks like a good price. Carrier did have a deal where you'd get a free electronic air cleaner with any infinity system purchase... I'm not sure if that has expired (or if you want that kind of air cleaner). Also, I don't see a pump on the quote which you'll need to drain the coil.

AGAIN, you will NEVER make money on any of these systems. You are paying $13.5k (+ loan interest) and you're saving ~$70/mo in utilities (which sounds high to me). A more expensive system can save you money on your utilities... you need to compare the costs between an efficient system and a cheaper system and see if the cost difference is worthwhile. This is analogous to buying a $30k hybrid car to "save money" when your 25mpg car is still working. You're never going to save enough in fuel to justify $30k. However, if you require a car then the $5k additional cost for a hybrid could be justified on fuel economy savings over the lifetime of the car.

The contractor has clearly listed the Carrier Edge thermostat. I feel this is not an oversight. The quote needs to be changed if you want the Infinity controller. I would not buy this system without the controller.

Your previous quote had an 80,000BTU furnace. This quote has a 100,000 BTU furnace. Did this contractor do a Manual J calculation? This seems oversized.

The Carrier 10 year labor warranty costs about $600. All Carrier products get the 10 year parts warranty for free.

The claimed energy savings are overstated. This is why I asked you to figure out how much money you spend on heating and cooling. The actual savings are going to be much lower. You are correct that electric and gas bill is driven by other appliances. You will also have to pay for the electricity to drive the hot water heater power vent.

Greg..it does include a condensation removal system,also in the hwh part of the quote it states "� Install new condensation removal system terminating to furnace condensate pump". I would need to get that pump specifically listed.

Mike, yes they did do a manual J, he showed it to me. Not sure why the change to 100btu.

How do I know how much is heating and cooling out of my bill. Gas is only heat, hot water and dryer, not cooking. Last summer's bills were 37-49 approx for gas. In the winter of 2010 (cold unlike this past winter) they were 230, 319, 221 for dec, jan feb. My elec bill ending Jun 22 was 286. I'm afraid to see this month! 10 days in a row int he 90's and more coming next week.

I'm sure I will have some savings due to the insulation alone. At this point I am interested in whether the price is reasonable for the system, and if I should just push for a reasonable price on a non-infinity. Does the Infinity (both a/c and heat) really save more than a lower model with similar claimed efficiency/seer? Or, is it a matter of increased comfort? Does the increased comfort from the ability to control temps better cause the system to run less, saving more?

To determine how much gas you used to heat your home, take the average gas usage for May - September. This will represents the average usage per month for all appliances other than the furnace. Multiply the average by 12 and subtract it from the total gas usage for the year. The result is what you used to heat the house. Repeat the process for electricity by taking the average electricity use of the months you don't use the AC (October - April).

The Infinity system is more about comfort than saving energy. There could be some savings for the AC since it does a very good job of lowering the humidity. This could allow you to set the thermostat at a higher level.

What good is a Manual J calculation if you are going to ignore it?