Where as Bry911 wants to know why a ductless project that take roughly 1/4 of the labor hours of a ducted project costs the same.

The costs are on the front end for on going training to be able to work on these kinds of systems. (We don't care if you know how to work on them? So it doesn't matter if the system actually works?)

Product cycles for these products are much shorter than traditional systems... training costs never end, they are on going.

People only want to look at what they can see and ignore everything else.

If you want someone untrained, unskilled, etc. that doesn't spell 'getting what you are paying for'. Does it?

I had a similar experience in the past. The cost of the below unit is under 700, but the estimate i got was for $4K. It is ridiculous.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Pioneer-12-000-BTU-1-Ton-19-SEER-Ductless-Mini-Split-Air-Conditioner-Heat-Pump-Variable-Speed-DC-Inverter-System-110-120V-WYS012AMFI19RL-16/311474980?irgwc=1&cm_mmc=afl-ir-10577-483420-&clickid=xYMSOHRTixyOUtjwUx0Mo38VUkiz8ZW-Nz6L0E0

Why do professional HVAC people hate mini-splits?

I had 3 installers each quote between $18K - $20K to install two mini-split (Lennox & Mitsubishi) systems (875 sq ft and 350 sq ft). I am doing the 350 square foot one myself with this:

MRCOOL DIY 12K BTU 115V Mini Split Air Conditioner and Heat Pump with Wi-Fi Smart Controller

Costco Price including shipping : $1,099.99 - $300 Fed Tax Credit = $799. DIY Install

I personally think it's as simple as " why kill the goose that laid the golden egg ? " This is the price... period. We all stick to it and we control the market. If someone undercuts us we all raise a collective eyebrow and spout the nonsense we've been hearing for so long. In your case however, the price of a Lennox and Mitsubishi is way more than a Mr Cool for the units. That said, the labor they want to charge you ( assuming a semi normal installation ) is so far out of kilter that it's hard to believe..

The Mr Cool unit is a SEER 22 and obviously built out of the same parts that a huge percentage of these things are built. Probably in the same factories with just a different vanity label slapped on them. You buy it from Costco so if it does not perform well out of the box you drag to the closest store and get you money back. It has a 7-year compressor warranty and 5-year parts warranty. If it fails after that you just throw it away. That is $160 per year. Almost fail proof.

With millions upon millions of these units installed all over Asia and Europe by every Tom, Dick, and Harry, it would seem hard to go wrong. You can see why HVAC companies bad mouth them

HVAC companies have a responsibility to protect the Ozone Layer and reduce refrigerants impact on Global Warming.

If it doesn't Perform well?????? How would you know?

Every Tom, Dick, and Harry most likely wont invest in the recovery equipment to protect the environment before they cut the unit out, return it, or throw it away. Enjoy!

As this thread approaches its 8th anniversary and has passed its 300th comment, it may be time to admit that its best and most useful years passed many years ago. A well earned retirement could be appropriate.

The topic is remains relevant and of interest to some. A fresh start for a new inquiry might be just the thing needed.

HVAC companies have a responsibility to protect the Ozone Layer and reduce refrigerants impact on Global Warming.

First, R410a is not a Ozone destroying gas.

Next, if HVAC companies have such a responsibility to reduce the impact on global warming then why has America been so slow to adopt R32?

See what I mean? More wasted electrons and unnecessary bytes of storage consumed.

Costco Price including shipping : $1,099.99 - $300 Fed Tax Credit = $799. DIY Install.

It has a 7-year compressor warranty and 5-year parts warranty.

But because you installed it, you become the technician of last resort. You think Costco is going to handle a manufacture warranty problem with this unit?

The compressor or some part fails it takes you weeks to get a replacement part. Turns out the part you sent in wasn't defective according to the manufacturer ---

we've all seen the 'parts changer' threads on this board -- nothing new here.

If you approach it as: don't use the warranty just throw it away and buy and install a new one...

What's the worse that could happen under that scenario? buy a new one every couple of years or so? But at that point it's no longer about saving money if every time the thing breaks you go out buy a new one... or you stock another one in case the one you are using breaks.

Because the hotter it gets the higher the rate of breakage / malfunction goes. But you can blame service delays and I'm too hot complaints on yourself.

Maybe you lose a few girl friends for being too cheap? Sum that up as the 'cost of doing business'.

Many ways to 'try' to solve a problem of being a po' boy... knock yourself out.

In 20 to 30 years, add to your tattoo collection of 'somebody did something wrong song'.

"I don't want to cry all alone" let's post to a forum board. Big smiles...

"See what I mean? More wasted electrons and unnecessary bytes of storage consumed."

LOL... irony much?

"Hey wont ya play another somebody done somebody wrong song...."

The global warming potential of 410A should be more of a concern than its lack of HFCs and CFCs that's why we recover it.

Bits of data used 0000101110000000...….

Love the idea you have Elmer. Maybe House can end the comment section?

R-410A - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R410a

• Overview
• Environmental effects
• History
• Availability
• Precaution
• Trade names

Unlike alkyl halide refrigerants that contain bromine or chlorine, R-410A (which contains only fluorine) does not contribute to ozone depletion and is therefore becoming more widely used, as ozone-depleting refrigerants like R-22 are phased out. However, R410A has a high global warming potential of 2088, higher than that of R-22. Since R-410A allows for higher SEERratings than an R-22 system by reducing power consumption, the overall impact on global warming of R-410A sys…

The global warming potential of 410A should be more of a concern than its lack of HFCs and CFCs that's why we recover it. [..] R410A has a high global warming potential of 2088, higher than that of R-22.

The 100 year global warming potential (GWP) of R32 is 675, compared to R410a's 2088... We don't switch to it because the HVAC industry lobbies against the small capital expenditure required to make the change, even though that change results in longer equipment life (which is probably the real reason they don't want to change).

So please don't act like the HVAC industry is altruistic because they recover R410a, when they spend millions lobbying against a refrigerant that is already standard in Asian countries that has 1/3 the GWP. Trailing China in environmental issues is nothing to be proud of.

What's the worse that could happen under that scenario? buy a new one every couple of years or so? But at that point it's no longer about saving money if every time the thing breaks you go out buy a new one... or you stock another one in case the one you are using breaks.

I suspect that I am not going to be able to fix your math here... but if anyone else is interested here is what the numbers look like.

That person is saving between $5,200 and $8,200. So let's check the value of the extended life.

A $5,200 savings would pay for itself if you needed to install a new unit every 5 years for the next 75 years even if you could only avoid 4% interest. In other words, pay some principle on your home.

Suppose you invest in the stock market, and we use the average rate of return, that will get you a new system every 2.5 years for the next 75 years or so.

----

Just because something lasts longer doesn't mean it is a deal at any price. A bird in the hand is better than two in the bush...

Three companies bid the job at 18-20K for two units 2 day install. We all expect you to make a profit, but not 10K on 2 days easy labor. It's not complex ducting. It's an electrical connection, a hole in the wall, and line pressurization. It's a glorified window air conditioner. I will take my chances. How often does your window air conditioner die? Every ten or twelve years. I would be happy to have professionals do the job, but it is clearly a con job, like taking your car to dealer after it is out of warranty. Nobody does it.

Three companies bid the job at 18-20K for two units 2 day install.

I question a quote that high. I believe there is probably plenty you aren't saying it just doesn't make sense. You can say anything you want on a forum board to make yourself look justified. The old 'I read it on the internet so it must be true.' You focus on what you want to say and leave the rest to the imagination of others.

R32 versus R410a

R410a has a flammability rating of A1. It is comprised of a mixture of 50% R32 and 50% R125. R410a MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet)

R32 by itself no mix: Flammability rating of A2L.

Flammability

So just how flammable are A2L refrigerants? There is a lot of conjecture on this issue. Some are more flammable that others but they all have lower flammability, lower flame propagation levels.

Let’s look at R32 as our example. This is the proposed solution for commercial air conditioning.

Is it flammable? Yes

What do I need to ignite R32?
A concentration limit (or LFL) of between 13 – 30
An MIE (Minimum Ignition Energy) of 30 to 100mJ
A flame higher than 600°C
A constant supply of oxygen

Can I set fire to it? Yes

So that poses a big problem for regular HVAC duct systems maybe not mini splits so much?

See people love to talk non sense and just continue spewing nonsense for the sake of yacking. --- They say hey Europe has approved this so why not the USA?

Europe also has a market primarily made up of mini split systems. The refrigerant contained in them is measured in Ounces where as USA the charge of most HVAC systems could be anywhere from 6 pounds to as much as 20 lbs or more-- depending on a wide variety of factors.

(The mini split market in the USA is so small it barely exists, unless you're in some market in which AC is considered a luxury as opposed to a necessity and the homes of that market don't have duct system in place.)

Well R32 isn't really that flammable? Who's going to pay to have your house rebuilt, settle the liability claim against loss of life? Your insurance company? The HVAC manufacturer? The US Government? The HVAC contractor? You or whoever is left in your family tree after the fire?

That's why R32 is not allowed in the USA. It's not that the EPA is worried about the skilled licensed people performing this work across the country. It's the home owner who picks up a torch with no training... other than the 3 min youtube video they just watched.

Somebody done somebody wrong song... yep sums it up exactly. Now go back to your rubber room before you hurt yourself.... LOL.

Just to be clear, r32 is less flammable than hairspray and much less flammable than cooking spray.

ETA:

That really shines a new light on your comment " Now go back to your rubber room before you hurt yourself.... LOL."

You can start insulting if you feel it adds credibility to your fabrications, however, you are just doing the same thing you did before... spinning lies to justify your absolutely ridiculous positions. Your entire post above was just another fear mongering fabrication that doesn't stand up to the most basic scrutiny.

It's a pre WW2 house in SoCal that has only floor and wall heaters. AC is only needed a few days a year. A full blown central HVAC is not feasible because there is no room for ducting. It's a question of the friction of cost vs utility. $2-5K is a justifiable investment, at 18-20K it is not, thus i will do it myself.

How do you become a millionaire? Don't spend a million dollars.

That really shines a new light on your comment " Now go back to your rubber room before you hurt yourself.... LOL."

You can start insulting if you feel it adds credibility to your fabrications, however, you are just doing the same thing you did before... spinning lies

I didn't classify R32's flammability potential. The MSDS / ASHRAE peep's do this sort of thing.

To use a video off youtube no less that shows R32 not burning in front of an open flame is not revolutionary, just misinformed like everything else you present.

The temp in which R32 burns is a shade over 1200F -- R410a is higher than that. Lower vs Higher = Higher is safer.

There are many decisions that go into selecting a refrigerant. Not just flammability potential.

While R410a is flammable it is less flammable than R32. Anything can burn if you crank the temp.

https://www.acr-news.com/daikin-to-ditch-r410a-in-favour-of-flammable-r32 (this link was a story from 2012... 8 years ago.)

From Australia: https://www.airah.org.au/Content_Files/TechnicalPublications/R32-Common-Questions-Sept-2014.pdf

Knock yourself out...

--------------------

It's a pre WW2 house in SoCal that has only floor and wall heaters. AC is only needed a few days a year.

Low use AC market: Yeah you're going to pay more most likely. The people (small number) trying to earn a living in virtually a 'no use' climate. That doesn't spell low cost anything. (specialty niche market = you are paying for a luxury) Only those that can afford it buy it. Or they do as you did... given your low use it may work out for you.

Trying to do this in a hot high use climate like mine? it probably won't end well. But install prices are lower here because the market is bigger and competitive forces at work.

It's like the gasoline analogy and how that effects prices. Lower prices don't really change the use of gasoline. If you have 3 local gas stations and the market they are in the use of gas is 250,000 gals a year.

One may drop price a penny to try to gain market share. But will a penny a gallon make much of a difference?

No, not in a market that sells only 250,000 gals of gas a year. If there is a store with other goods and services -- the store has the potential to sell other things besides gas. If the average gas tank is 18 gals these three stores are fighting over 13,888 people who buy gas.

These 3 stores may be happy to just set the price equal to the other two stores. If they calculate their share as being 1/3 of the market... larger markets are completely different as some may use the gasoline as a loss leader to be able to generate foot traffic to the store to sell higher profit margin goods and services.

I didn't classify R32's flammability potential. The MSDS / ASHRAE peep's do this sort of thing.

Let me help you here... You lied! Not the ASHRAE.

You said, "That's why R32 is not allowed in the USA. It's not that the EPA is worried about the skilled licensed people performing this work across the country. It's the home owner who picks up a torch with no training... other than the 3 min youtube video they just watched." Can you direct me to any place the ASHRAE said that? Because I can find exactly where you said it.

Prior to 2015 R-32 was considered A1 (the A is toxicity and the number is flammability). A1 is supposed to be non-flammable and R-32 is technically not non-flammable so we introduced a new classification level called A2L. In countries that have not adopted the new system, R-32 remains an A1 classified refrigerant.

Given that wood is more flammable than R-32 I can't imagine the we are that worried about a homeowner picking up a torch. That was a complete fabrication! You made something up to rebut my post and hoped that no one would know to call you on it. I provided a burn test to demonstrate exactly what an A2L flammability rating looks like. There are videos of R-32 burn tests from a manufacturer and the actual ISO 817 results you can look at, and they all show the same thing. R-32 burns better than water, not as good as wood.

You are not the bad guy in this particular debate, you are just a HVAC guy who bought the lie they spun to keep R-32 out of the U.S. Don't feel bad, it is the same cover that Congress has used to help out HVAC equipment makers to keep R-32 out of the U.S. The reality is that it creates a competitive advantage for U.S. based companies in the U.S. and they don't care about the environment or the consumer, they care about their competitive advantage.

It's like the gasoline analogy and how that effects prices. Lower prices don't really change the use of gasoline. If you have 3 local gas stations and the market they are in the use of gas is 250,000 gals a year.

The price elasticity of demand of gasoline is not related in any meaningful way to the price elasticity of demand for HVAC equipment. The HVAC markets suffers from cross elasticity and different levels of necessity. Next, we actually know what the price elasticity of demand for HVAC's are in specific climates in the U.S. The price at which people will look to alternatives or even do without is something we can calculate all over the U.S.

We should also note that your summation of price elasticity of demand is completely wrong. The less necessary something is, the more elastic consumer pricing is. This is just another demonstration of the Dunning-Kruger effect.

I don't want to give you a full microeconomics lesson here, but the more an item is viewed as necessary the more consumers will pay. You believe that the only way for a HVAC company in a low demand area needs to charge more to make a living, but you are ignoring the law of supply & demand and the invisible hand. Seriously, just watch a video on supply and demand when price is elastic versus inelastic.

LOL.

I'm not the one going around trying to 'reinvent the wheel'.

Oops now you'll say I lied again about the reinvention of that very wheel?

Whether it's EPA / ASHRAE who ever that decides what toxicity or flammability a refrigerant is: why do I care?

The manufacturer's design systems to use whatever refrigerant they decide. I am not out to re-engineer a piece of equipment. There are many that get caught up in that, I know better. If the system is designed for a certain refrigerant that is what I use to repair it.

For you? It's another somebody did somebody wrong song. I've got your MO down now. Accept no responsibility for yourself, just claim everyone and everything is out to get you.

Bry911 = 'The Victim'.

Not that I care, Bry911 --- it doesn't matter to me. You can do whatever you want to do. But I have that same right. That right doesn't mean agreeing with anything you say. I know you won't like that. Just like the price of 'paying someone professionally' to install a mini split, the audacity of someone not using R32 as the refrigerant in that equipment because the EPA has classified it as a more flammable refrigerant.
Even though the manufacturer designed the equipment to operate with a different refrigerant.

Oh, but that refrigerant has a higher GWP than others. Well electricity produces plenty of GWP but everyone still uses electricity. --- Makes you a hypocrite in addition to not wanting to start a mini split installation company to right the wrong of all these companies who are 'in Bry911's eyes' charging too much money.

But Bry911 makes more money doing something else. It's OK for Bry911 to make more money... but no one else.

This thread is now all a lie to get Bry911 and help his victim hood theory play out. Everyone who happens across this thread is invited to the pity party of Bry911.

There won't be any balloons, no hats, no cake --- no happiness of any kind.

--------------

So Ray, if you don't care why do you continue this worn out thread?

A couple of reasons...

1. To show the foolishness of 'some' people. Everything is an argument and anyone that doesn't smooth the feathers of these poor victims is just wrong on every level imaginable.

2. In my old age to be able to retell a story to show how 'certain people' are wound differently than the majority of us.

And the beat goes on.on..on.on

That Mr. Cool is a pretty good deal....especially with the "Costco Lifetime Warranty". However, I think the tax credit is 10% not 30%.

That Mr. Cool is a pretty good deal

LOL. Provide a link -- Costco is telling me the page doesn't exist. Vaporware.

The model they sell now is a joke, much like this thread. 10K BTU. Play toy. LOL.

Bry911 makes more money doing something else. It's OK for Bry911 to make more money... but no one else.

I believe the market is pretty efficient at seeing that small businesses who don't deserve to make more money don't. High schoolers all over America are learning how to do maximization problems, and I believe an HVAC contractor who can't learn deserve their fate.

I don't have to convince you the math is right for it to be right. It is right.

LOL. I'm at 26 years in the HVAC business within a few more months.

In that time I've heard all kinds of nonsense... yet some magical way I continue on as I always have.

It's not just about making more money, people are very adept at seeing that kind of thing.

I offer a variety of solutions --- people just pick what they want. The money takes care of itself.... When you are good at what you do --- not what others 'think' you should do.

I can't service them all, just a select few. (Katy, Texas area)

I know residential real estate: so the progression was to start my own RE rental. Years and years of serving other landlords. The math gets skewed real fast in the RE rental realm. Because then I control the whole ball of wax, make my own candle --- not to be burnt at both ends.

So I'm not just some poor AC tech looking for a pay check, different picture entirely. The math is right for me... you're the one complaining about the cost. I am merely giving you perspective as to 'WHY' the cost is what it is.

Whether you accept this now or 300 more posts from now: Matters not one bit to me.

This is what I do. You say you don't want to do it, but yet you continue to waste your time on something in which I get 'paid' indirectly to do.

Yet you tell me: The math is right? Oh darn this perception thing... LOL. Full circle.

@Mr. Miller, I just wanted to add an anecdotal experience re the Mr. Cool: we have had one for going on 7 years installed in a very small guest house (250 sq ft ). I don’t recall model or specs, but probably smallest btu model they make and not a smart wifi unit. Building is in zone 4a, southeast mountains in the woods, at about 3000 ft elevation, so heating all winter for pipes, and cooling in summer to keep loft livable. Temp. range -1 F to 90 F, humid.

We have no problems with the unit thus far; ordered it online with the refrigerant installed.

The only negative was the installation was a bit tricky, earning the unit a new name: it is now referred to as Mr. Bitch in our household.

I recently had a 12,000 BTU Pioneer mini split installed for a 400 sq. ft. space. I paid $1,650 total (equipment, and install). The person I hired did a great job and it works really well. I think I paid a fair price. Don't go with the first quote. Shop around, get different quotes. Do you use the website Nextdoor.com? Ask all your neighbors on that website who have they used for a similar job and what they paid. It can be very helpful to gain a perspective.

I installed three of these on my house in the Fiji Islands and the cost was pretty reasonable as it is in most countries outside of the US. I was told that the same units that are installed overseas charged a lot higher in the US and the labor rates are also very much higher. Believe me these Duckless systems are pretty much the norm outside of North America. But for some reason the OEM manufacturers seem like they can charge twice as much in North America. This is why I decided not to go this route on my house in Albuquerque New Mexico. Anyone buying into this in the u.s. is getting ripped off big time.

People crazy don't call those big companies they are a rip off . first of all I get 1 ton mini split for 560 $. It took me about 3 hours get it done. I

Charge 750 per unit plus cost of freon lines. Those usually between 150 and 300 depending on diameter and length. I had several estimates from 4500 per unit to 7000 per unit and AC tech it seemed to me like a serous rip off. You shouldn't pay more than 250 per hour and at 4500

per unit it comes out 1500 per hour

I don't think NASA pays that astronauts. Call small company and you will get fair price.

Did anyone consider swamp cooler

If leave somewhere with low humidity it would chipper and healthier options. Places North Hollywood Valley basically wherever humidity doesn't reach 40%. I live Palmdale and swamp coolers working great here. It's 100 + most of the time. While it's crazy hot and dry outside inside the house it stays 70 and humidity 45 50% plus air constantly getting pumped into the house so it's always fresh unlike AC

Which recirculates same stagnant air

All the time. The best part about swamp cooler is low operating cost

and maintenance.

After buying the smallest LG unit 7 years ago and getting quotes of $4-6K to install, I did it myself. It was a simple hole in the wall and a straight drop down to the compressor. It took a while but I finally found an independent guy who came out to evacuate the system for a couple hun dollars. I saved thousands.

Fast forward, the unit isn’t working, I was able to figure out the flashing codes that told me that the compressor fan was broken. AC company wanted $595 to come out and fix it, even after I had diagnosed it. I ordered the OEM fan on line for $130 - it took me 45 minutes to replace it, would have been quicker but the blade needed a bit of persuading.

Finally an answer to the original question. Break down the project to the activity level add in any additional material cost and now you have time and material covered to get what the actual cost should be. Add in overhead if you will to get a reasonable cost estimate for an install. Goes with everything .... The bottom line is on one wants to be held accountable to the activity/task level or want to take the time to break it out. But one can and should.

In India, these mini split brads - Daikin, Samsung, LG, Mitsubishi for 2 Ton costs only $600 on amazon.in or walmart.in (Flipkart) and the online order will say (installation included). Yes! Installation Included. In USA, these days wholesale price for ductless mini split is around $2000 but installation cost is $5000-$8000. The technician typically takes 4-5 hours to do the install. I am not sure why they charge $1000/hr to install it. It is insane heavy cost to do mini-split install in US.

I bought 3 units from Costco (Mr. Cool) and installed each for about $200 bucks. They have been running for about 6 months (both heat and cool) flawlessly. Like every other business that is being hit by technological advancement, the practitioners are trying to hang on to what they have. The only long-term solution is to embrace the technology and adapt to the new business model. Change is the way of the world. Instead of the $18,000 - $20,000 quotes (from 3 companies) my cost ended up being three weekends and about $1400 each.

@F Hudson Miller - that is awesome! Do you know any one in MA that can do it for this price or even 5 times more than this installation cost ? lol..I can pay..

If you use a self install system like Mr. Cool, any handyman can install it as long as the electric is close and there is decent placement for the compressor.

I was quoted for a Mitsubishi 3 zone system at $10,876 for what the guy doing the estimate said was "the easiest home he thinks he might have ever seen" for an install. The system was priced around $4500 give or take. I started to do more research then found the MRCOOL so-called DIY systems. While those systems were around $2000 less, the lines needed to install would have cost almost the same as the system itself since they don't need a flare fitting made and are pre-filled. Lines for the system needing a "professional" installer go for around $125. Almost 5x more for the DIY system. The manufacturers are just raping people on the cost of the lines. The "professional" installers are doing it to the consumer for labor. Sure, knowing what system and all the technical knowledge is what you pay for but for simple labor there is no way it should cost thousands of dollars simply because they have a vaccum pump and some gauges along with a flare fitting tool. Ironically enough I have buddy who went to school for this and he said buy your own pump and gauges for about 125 total, the flare tool another 125 and just find a video showing how to test the system. He said its crazy what is happening to the consumer and it's only happening because people don't take the time to do their research. I did, basically exposing the sham and it's only because its A/C. These installers should be ashamed of themselves for charging so much for something that in reality is quite simple to accomplish yourself. Don't waste your money on a DIY system that is of lesser quality as well since they just get the same amount of money out of you.

Installed ductless heating and cooling systems cost an average of $3,400 for a single zone system and $7,100 for a multi-zone system.

Austin, TX Aug 2021. Quotes for a 300sf room mini-split not incl electric which I would guesstimate to add $500-800: 1) $4900, 2) $5000, 3) starting at $4800. The only more reasonable one was 4) $3400 which I MIGHT give up and just take, meaning paying about $4000.

The thing is I would be HAPPY as hell to get the 2nd floor central AC to be exactly like our first floor central AC system and pay $5-7000 for it. The 1st floor's Sept 2020-installed 2-ton HVAC, despite being a single-stage, actually cools at 47 dB directly at the intake, 39dB 10 feet away, most of the time. Then it's like 63dB when it has to cool things down multiple degrees but that's not for very long. The 2nd floor's furnace was installed at the same time and is the same exact unit as the 1st floor's but the 2.5 ton outside is not same brand and not the same coils. When I asked the AC co. this summer to just make the 2nd floor like the first floor - replacing the coils and condenser, he hemmed and hawed and said I can't guarantee you the same situation and static pressure, blah blah blah. He couldn't explain why the 1st floor unit had two fan speeds. Isn't there a way to kind of estimate how the thing would work? Funny thing is the 2nd floor furnace is loud as hell all the time when running - I think 67dB with vibrating noises - and will cycle on and off A LOT at night - literally on for 5 minutes then off for 5, then on again for 5 minutes for part of the night, driving me crazy. It's louder than the previous 30-year system which ironically still worked.

The first mini-split estimator to come to the house (the rest I just got ballparks on the phone to not waste anybody's time) - they mostly do full HVACs - when I asked about the 2nd floor, he stared at the grate and said "you need more duct board." Hilarious. Didn't even mention the fact that the intake is too small which I found out on my own but I still doubt that would help because pulling the grate off does nothing except maybe make it louder still. So I don't feel like these HVAC people know much about systems either. One of my installer AC's folks said it's the thermostat - you mean the fancy Honeywell? I called Honeywell without much luck. And when I called the manufacturer to supposedly find a compatible thermostat, the guy said X and it was their $800 thermostat. Um, why?

I'm definitely looking at the Mr. Cool unit. Not crazy about learning yet a new skill and taking forever figuring things out which is how I am - I'm good, just slow but willing. I may also just install a Midea u-shaped inverter window AC - I bought my daughter one and it's remarkably quiet - crazy quiet. Luckily the window in question is on the side of the house far from the front. But I can't believe I have to resort to a window AC. $500 window AC vs $4000-$5000 Euro-style system vs $5-7000 new HVAC compressor and coils which may not do what I want and the guy really doesn't want to sell me. Geez.

It’s a bunch of short term thinkers, why not get with the rest of the world and charge real prices for this?

Sic-him Ray

Sic-him Ray

LOL. I doubt there is anything I could add to this thread that I haven't said over and over (add nasuem). I'll give it a shot anyway just to be a good sport....

People are people... pissing and moaning over money or whatever (it's too noisy -- because I was too cheap, it's this or that --- because I was too cheap.)

To make matters worse people like to chase after the Free estimate. Whether it's a ball park over the phone, in person or otherwise... you're not paying for it. So because you're not paying for it --- this situation turns into a mythical con game.

A salesman comes to your home to "sell you" man. This is how salesmen make their living. They will lie, cheat, steal, tell tall fables.... some might be good... but the odds you choose the good ones are slim. (It's a numbers game, and not a good one.... take a look around this forum board of those who have had trouble.)

I don't recognize the name brand that you're selling? Do you recognize these brands in my graveyard? They all break. (the one you have now? IS BROKEN. RIGHT?)

People ~ as foolish as *some* often are... DO NOT replace or get estimates to replace a good working HVAC system.

I service the Katy, Texas area.

Ray I actually thought you might sell better equipment, install it and pay for the trip to Austin at the kind of money OP is talking about.

This is a YouTube video about a guy showing the Midea window unit's guts: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2NmgOvIv2M

Their slick marketing video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lmSIZd0Lzo

Used to be available on Amazon but now I only found it on Walmart: I ordered a 10,000BTU unit - if we decide not to use it for the MBR, I'll use it as a backup in case of power outage with one of our generators.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Midea-10-000-BTU-Smart-Inverter-U-Shaped-Window-Air-Conditioner-35-Energy-Savings-Extreme-Quiet-MAW10V1QWT/443322505?selected=true It behaves largely like a mini-split but only uses 110/120V. Window units are kind of ugly but so is the tubing that holds the hoses on a mini-split. And no pro or electrician needed. Also I can buy 10 of these for the price of the single mini-split system installed. Maintenance = buy another. I'll have to replace the condenser/coils on the 2nd floor HVAC someday - I may be pleasantly surprised, but in the meantime I could be happy with this solution. I'll give an update.

klem1
18 hours agoRay I actually thought you might sell better equipment, install it and pay for the trip to Austin at the kind of money OP is talking about.

I sell Bosch too, but those kinds of jobs are pretty rare. What people mostly view as better is a slant from each of the major brands. But they only go so far as sticker level, not the myriads of higher level models. What I sell in terms of higher end is more about what it does than the name on the side of the box. If something came out similar to the Bosch, that I thought was better I'd offer it. Brands just don't mean what they used to.

Most in the realm of the Bosch unit... it's about proprietary controls and a bunch of garbage most do not need. Some manufacturer's limit what a system can do... so if you make decisions by brand name you're not thinking with a full deck IMHO.

These days I make more sitting on my bum end than doing HVAC. HVAC is something to do to occupy my time and I only do it for profit, because I have so many other things to do as well. Rental RE price appreciation is thru the roof. Retirement accts. thru the roof. So because I worked hard these past 14 years of owning my HVAC business + I'm smart, it's not luck I can tell you that much -- because I am not that lucky.

I do more low end jobs, because that's kind of the nature of the business here. People mostly come here for work, those that see the value / better comfort in the Bosch and understand the risks --- trade offs whatever you want to call it. It doesn't matter to me anyway. I offer solutions, people pick what they want. I am here for "repeatable" service. You will always need HVAC service. That is the "most important" part in all of it.

That being said, I don't push equipment. I offer it when I feel it's needed. I don't chase new HVAC equipment jobs. I would say better than 90% of the time I am repairing the poor old Tranes, Lennox's, Carrier's, Goodman's and any other brand you can think of.

HVAC repair market is a much bigger market. The con is you have to know what you're doing, some other companies do know... many more do not. This heat down here where I live --- separates the men from the boys rather quickly.

I service the Katy, Texas area.

I follow you AA,my comment was tongue in cheek. What success I've had is attrubitable as much to luck as from being smart. 40 years ago the ecconomy was down and work was hard to find. By luck and help from infulential business aquaitances,a had a client base that afforded me almost as much as I could handle and future prospects were very incouraging. A few tradesmen I was aquainted with told me they were getting as much work as they could handle and being paid more than average and Incouraged me to come join them. I said no thanks and stayed with what I had been doing. A few months later FBI went on the dozens of large work sites,locked the gates and posted the properties with signs saying it was a felony to be on the property without FBI approval. That meant all tools,material,construction equipment and everything else was componscated. Being a small operation,that would have bankrupted and left me in debt. I don't have time to explain the web woven around that deal but if you search "D.L. (Danny) Faulkner" you will be shocked.

Well Klem, I think that story is more about being smart than luck.

I've been aquainted with shysters, they're not too hard to spot now. I've had my rough blips like after Hurricane Harvey, while it didn't flood any home I own it decimated service work as many homes sat vacant due to being gutted shells.

From then to now, most areas you'd never even realize that hurricane happened.

So in terms of that hurricane how would you classify it: luck or being smart, not buying homes in a flood zone (even though I am at sea level!)

Very little HVAC work after the hurricane? luck? or what?

visual representation: (click to enlarge) Hurricane Harvey Before & After

Something I will never forget. (Sept 2017)

Walmart's seller ended up sending me the wrong unit so I ended up getting the Midea U-shaped inverter from Amazon when it came back in stock. It was extremely quiet such that we could hear a bit of the whirring of the (optional) oscillating motor for the vents at the lowest fan setting. The remote is great. The setup only allowed a tiny amount of increased street noise which was surprising since we had to remove the lower noise-protection window insert to install it. We ended up pulling it and keeping it as a power-outage emergency AC as the husband was just too finicky about the temperature, i.e. he complained too much so we didn't really give it a fair shot. I would still recommend it as a cost-effective solution, but I am contemplating getting the compressor replaced for the 2nd floor HVAC with a 2-stage to reduce noise and constant turn-on-turn-off. Might also get a discount if I jump on it now rather than wait till spring.