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collinsd4

Evaluating Heat Pumps and Air Handlers

collinsd4
9 years ago

i have a single story home in Richmond VA, 1000 square feet. I've received 6 quotes from 4 companies, Hungerford Oil, Taylor Construction, Sears and One Hour to replace a 2 ton 20 year old central air system with a new heat pump and air handler. I'm also interested in having a UV light, programmable thermostat and annual maintenance plan.

I currently use oil for heat and hot water. I'll be using this only as a backup for heat on really cold days, but otherwise, it will continue to provide hot water. Taylor Construction proposed some sort of mechanism that would prevent the heat strips in the air handler from coming on at very low temperatures and rather, would defer heating at these times to the oil furnace, stating that heat pumps do not generally perform well during extended periods of sub-freezing temperatures.

1) Energy.gov recommends the selection of a heat pump with a demand-defrost control. This isn't standard?

2) is there a recommended process for evaluating the reliability of these installers and the level of service I can expect, especially if there is an equipment problem in the future?

3) I'm leaning towards a whole house energy audit to be followed by an audit of the work of whichever company is selected to make sure the work is done correctly. Is this overkill?

Of the companies bidding, Hungerford has done a great job servicing my oil furnace and existing central AC system on an annual basis. The other three companies came to me by way of being recommended through homeadvisor.com saying "these service professionals, while screened HomeAdvisor Service Professionals, have not been matched to your request, and are being provided solely for informational purposes, as a directory."

I'm thinking that as a more educated consumer since speaking with these companies, having reviewed many of the earlier posts to this same forum and having done some general research online, I should probably do #3 above and then get some recommendations on local companies. Sears and One Hour had great presentations, but they seem to be very expensive as compared to what I think I should be paying in the neighborhood of $4000-$6000.

I'd love to know what others think.

~ Collins

Comments (20)

  • tigerdunes
    9 years ago

    I would not use an oil company or a big box store including Sears for purchasing HVAC. I prefer authorized dealers that usually can be found on the brand's website.

    To your questions...

    1. Demand defrost feature or EDD should be standard but it isn't. A very high majority use the cheaper method known as time/temp that will go into defrost at a certain outside temperature whether needed or not. Demand defrost eliminates and reduces nuisance, unnecessary, and expensive defrost calls. Trane and Am Std offer demand defrost on their HPs. So do Rheem/Rudd.

    2. There is not a written uniform process. I personally prefer the smaller established dealers who obviously have standing in the community they serve. Ask people in your workplace, neighbors, friends, etc.

    3. Not saying this is a bad idea but may be overkill unless you have a specific issue that needs to be addressed with options to correct/improve. Be careful here. They should be certified by a national organization that have certain standards. I have mixed feelings about this.

    I will assume natural gas service is not available to your home/area you live. Correct? I see nothing wrong with keeping your oil boiler operational for the cold days. However I would consider an electric hot water heater if gas is not available.

    You will be installing a new ductwork system?

    New Heat Pump System

    Here is my general spec sheet for new system.
    both outside and inside units should be replaced to have a properly matched system.

    15 SEER, 12.5+ EER, 9 HSPF
    best matching VS air handler
    full BTUs in both cooling and heating for your rated size
    R-410a refrigerant(same as Puron)
    scroll compressor preferred
    electronic demand defrost preferred
    thermostat with "dehumidify on demand" feature
    staged backup heat strips
    new and correctly sized refrigerant lineset
    10 yr warranty on parts and compressor

    you want a thorough inspection of your ductwork system. size, overall condition, supply and return lines, insulation qualities, leak test, etc.

    any hot/cold spot issues in your home should be addressed.

    My personal recommendation is Trane/AmStd, Rudd/Rheem, and Carrier/Bryant.

    Depending on your location, I would not purchase a new system that did not have electronic demand defrost.

    IMO

    This post was edited by tigerdunes on Sun, Jun 1, 14 at 9:07

  • collinsd4
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Tigertunes:

    I do have natural gas, lines in crawl space coming up to fireplace, adjacent to the area where the oil furnace now stands.

    The ductwork seems to be in good shape, but I intend to get it tested and resealed as may be required. I wasn't planning on new ductwork, though I guess an inspection and testing might necessitate otherwise.

    Thanks for the explanation and advice. This is very helpful.

  • bsmith
    9 years ago

    Sears/Home Depot/Lowes etc. simply contracts out the lowest bid in your area, they don't even bother vetting them much. Get on Angie's List (or equiv review/rating service) and start getting some quotes. Do your best to weed out the worst contractors.

    In this way, you would cut out the middleman and substantially lower your price and increase the quality of your install. The equipment is secondary to the actual competence of the installer. This cannot be said enough.

    Take the money you save and get your ducts and insulation tightened. DIY is definitely a cheaper option.

    This post was edited by bsmith on Sun, Jun 1, 14 at 12:51

  • tigerdunes
    9 years ago

    Since you have nat gas service, why are you not considering a small gas furnace and gas water heater. I would not want to rely on oil boiler even for cold day backup if other options are available.

    How would you describe the insulation properties of your home?

    IMO

  • collinsd4
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    tigerdunes: Not considering natural gas at this time due to cost containment and because that opens up another can of worms for which I'm not educated. Perhaps if I find a good local contractor knowledgeable in this area too, I'll consider making this plunge too, sooner rather than later.

    I definitely need to increase insulation in attic. Been told this by several people already. Figured the home energy audit would address this need, not only on attic floor, but under the house in the crawl space and under the roof if necessary. Of the 4 service companies to visit, no one has cared to look in the crawl space under the house and only Sears tried to talk me into some sort of insullation under the roof, above the attic floor. I figure they were just going for the big upsell.

  • tigerdunes
    9 years ago

    Any use of oil when nat gas service is available is the same as burning money...

    IMO

  • bsmith
    9 years ago

    Under the floor, a good/cheap solution is to blow in cellulose with a perforated radiant barrier ontop. For radiant barrier, I like Atticfoil.com. Buy ten bags of cellulose at HomeDepot/Lowe's get the very expensive blower for the day free.

    For the ceiling, EPS foam is really cheap and you can seal around the edges. Then staple a perforated radiant barrier ontop of it. This will allow enough moisture to pass through while keeping major air-infiltration at bay. Just a few simple suggestions.

    Also a good idea is having returns in the most often used rooms, except bathrooms, especially if the doors are often closed. Otherwise, you are constantly pulling air from the outside. Basically you would be cooling/heating outside air as well.

    Those suggestions would be money way better spent. Cool that Sears was the only company to suggest insulation. I do give them credit for that one. ;)

  • bsmith
    9 years ago

    Another vote for natural gas over oil. It's a no-brainer switch and has been for decades now.

  • SaltiDawg
    9 years ago

    I would prefer to have NG if it were available

    I used $400 in oil this past winter to supplement my heat pump's heating. (Oil when outside temp is below 25 degrees F.)

    Wonder how much using NG (were it available) would have cost. I would have been interested in that savings because some nearby neighbors that were able to bring in NG to replace their oil spent nearly $10K to connect and plumb.

    My only point is that one should still run the numbers to see what the pay back is for converting from oil to NG. In my situation I do not use very much oil so converting to NG may not present a large enough annual savings to make it produce an overall savings for many, many years.

    Don't misunderstand, I wish my home had NG... but I also wish I was 50 pounds slimmer.

  • collinsd4
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Ok, you have any natural gas recommendations in terms of what to buy, what to look for, and pitfalls to avoid. I live alone. My hot water consumption is likely minimal, showers, cooking, laundry and cleaning. Would you recommend tying it in to the radiator heating system throughout the house, or just use for hot water?

  • tigerdunes
    9 years ago

    Get rid of the oil period. Connect Nat gas.

    Decide what you want to do with radiator system-use it or decommission it. If using it, you will need a small high eff nat gas boiler.

    Yes, it's a cost but conservatively, nat gas cost is about 1/3 of oil.

    IMO

    This post was edited by tigerdunes on Mon, Jun 2, 14 at 6:56

  • SaltiDawg
    9 years ago

    "Yes, it's a cost but conservatively, nat gas cost is about 1/3 of oil."

    Rah! An answer to my question above.

    I used $400 in oil last winter. Had I converted to NG it would have saved me ~$265.

    The payback is simply not there IN MY CASE if NG were even available. The OP should "do the math."

    This post was edited by saltidawg on Mon, Jun 2, 14 at 9:27

  • mike_home
    9 years ago

    Collins,

    How much did you pay for oil during the past 12 months? This will give you an idea of your potential annual savings.

    What do you pay for a gallon of oil? What are electric and gas rates?

    How old is the current boiler and oil burner? Is the oil tank underground?

    If the current oil equipment is old, and you plan to live in this house at least another 5 years, then switching to gas makes sense. If you get a boiler then you could get an indirect hot water tank.

    When it is time to sell, your house will be more attractive than similar houses heated with oil. Another plus for gas heating.

    Get quotes from an insulation company to insulate the attic floor and crawl space. This should be high on the priority list.

  • SaltiDawg
    9 years ago

    "If the current oil equipment is old, and you plan to live in this house at least another 5 years, then switching to gas makes sense"

    Mike,

    You've determined the return on investment payback time is five years before "doing the math?"

    It MAY make economic sense - or may not - but as you suggested, do the math before concluding it does.

  • tigerdunes
    9 years ago

    For Salti

    Two different situations. OP has access to nat gas service, you don't. When you sell your home, it will be more difficult with oil over a similar home with nat gas. In fact, you or your beneficiaries will probably be marked down. While the federales say we are close to becoming energy independent with oil imports decreasing to 1973 import levels), the fact remains oil prices will track world markets and certainly be unlikely to come down. The situation with nat gas is quite different.

    I agree OP needs to understand all upfront costs not only in HVAC but connecting costs and decommissioning old oil boiler. Still this will not get any cheaper and he should bite the bullet as soon as possible.

    IMO

  • mike_home
    9 years ago

    Salti,

    I agree that you have to do all the math to determine the investment pay back period. Even then it is an estimate since no one can accurately forecast fuel costs in the future. For a 1000 sq. foot house it is probably longer than 5 years. I used 5 years as a general guide line.

  • SaltiDawg
    9 years ago

    Nonsense about oil heat adversely affecting sale of my home in my area.

    As I have previously explained, I live in a relatively affluent subdivision of early 1970s residences in the MD suburbs of DC.

    The homes built in 1970-1972 all have gas heat. In 1973 a moratorium was created preventing any new gas hookups and thus the second half of the homes all have oil heat.

    I do follow property values in our area quite closely and the selling prices have no apparent correlation with heating fuel type.

    As a retired military service member, I have bought and sold many homes - likely more that most here. Heating method, while an item of immense interest in this forum was not at the top of the list of considerations re any home my wife and I bought. Schools, yes. # BRs and # baths, location, age of home, location, commute, condition, perceived re-sale, all yes. (And likely many other considerations, including working heating. lol)

    I'm a bit of a TV junkie now that I'm retired. I do watch "House Hunters" and I have NEVER heard a house hunter identify heating fuel as a consideration in their search.

    There is a lot of bad advice given here due to not "doing the math" - all things being equal, I would prefer to have NG heat rather than oil. Cheaper operating costs, not concern about deliveries, etc. However, I have done the best I can to insulate, reduce heating set point, shift the heating burden to heat pump, and closely monitor costs.

    I don't have NG available, but based on the costs to bring in NG (based on the experience of a few of my neighbors that were able) it makes absolute no economic sense IN MY CASE.

    If you don't use very much of an expensive product, your absolute costs may not be that great and the incentive to convert may well be lessened.

    If you visit the roofing forum, I suspect they'll identify the roof as the most important factor effecting price... in the landscaping forum it will be the grounds, in the kitchen forum, the kitchen and bath.

    Heating is certainly an important concern, but we need not cry wolf about it.

  • mike_home
    9 years ago

    How much the value of a home is affected by the choice of heating fuel is highly subjective to the area. You have to research your house versus similar houses in your local area.

    There is a general agreement that natural gas is more desirable than fuel oil. The question is how much does that desire translate into more home value. I do have a good friend who is afraid of natural gas. She would not let her husband convert to gas more than 15 years ago during a major renovation when they moved their underground storage tank to the basement.

    Here is a link I found discussing the topic. As you can see there is general disagreement among the real estate agents.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Oil vs. gas heating affect on home value

  • bsmith
    9 years ago

    The only reason why oil/gas wouldn't be a selling factor would be abject ignorance. People in the US have so many choices they usually only opt for the lowest common denominator.

    However this is information (oil vs. gas) my father was smart enough to know in the sixties, pre-Internet. Based on other oil homes in our area vs our natural gas, I'd imagine it has saved tens of thousands of dollars. Fourty years later and it's still one of the best decisions a homeowner can currently make. Roof would easily be second.

    This post was edited by bsmith on Mon, Jun 2, 14 at 11:41

  • energy_rater_la
    9 years ago

    3) I'm leaning towards a whole house energy audit to be followed by an audit of the work of whichever company is selected to make sure the work is done correctly. Is this overkill?

    not in my opinion.
    meeting with an independent (not working for utility co. or anyone besides you) would give you access to
    the actual costs & benefits of the system best suited to
    your actual location.
    a pre work inspection/testing of whole house, recommendations,
    and post inspection/testing of whole house would
    give you the info you need.

    resnet.us is one source of energy raters
    another is bpi.org for auditors.
    these people know the area,
    rates & common building issues.

    any added insulation in attic would be
    after sealing air leaks..and radiant barriers
    should be stapled to undersides of roof rafters.

    best of luck.

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