I assume natural gas is not available.

What are the sizes of the first and second floors?

Using propane does not mean you must get baseboard heating. You could get a propane furnace with a forced air system. The propane could also be used for cooking, drying clothes, and hot water heating.

The heat pump is a good option if you have reasonable electric rate. Don't dismiss the heat pump because of a YouTube video. The better heat pumps are quiet. The noise they generate is about the same as when they are in cooling mode.

Thanks Mike. I don't think there's natural gas. How much noise is made when the heat pump is cooling? I'll have to check with the architect for the exact square footage. I have a heart condition (POTS) that necessitates air conditioning. If it's loud when it's cooling, everyone outside on the large porch will hear it. I know our plumber sells heat pumps (Lenox and another brand). Should I ask him if I can listen to one?

This a dumb question but doesn't forced hot air come out of baseboards? Do you know anything about radiant wall heating? Thanks so much for taking the time to help me.

I don't how to describe how loud the heat pump will be. People sitting outside will hear it, but don't think it will be problem if you are sitting 15 feet front it. Some models offer sound deadening blankets. Perhaps you can create a noise baffle by planting shrubs between the porch and the heat pump.

Forced hot air comes out of registers. It is the same registers that provide cooling.

I have no experience with installing radiant heat in walls. It can be done but it will be expensive. It is not very common. It will be expensive and may be limited to installation on interior walls only.

First of all, you need to find out whether you have nat gas service.

And second, I just want to reinforce what Mike has said about noise.

Depending on brand/model of heat pump, heat pumps are not noisy and certainly not noisy on defrost calls. That is pure nonsense. I can not hear my HP running unless I am outside in the yard and it's barely noticeable. Yet I can hear my neighbors. As far as defrost calls, again nonsense. My DF system is nearly 10 yrs old and I have never heard my system in defrost mode. I do suggest if you are looking at HPs, you check the db rating and insist on models with electronic demand defrost.

Do you have existing ductwork system?

IMO

suz,

You can go to youtube.com and search on heat pump defrost and view videos and listen to the noise during normal operation and also during defrost cycle.

Of course it is difficult to get an absolute sense of how "loud" the units are. I think you would be wise to ask the potential installer to show you a couple of units. I don't know if it is reasonable or possible to force a heat pump into a defrost cycle during the summer..... my three year old Carrier is considerably louder during a small part of the defrost cycle, as can be heard on any of the many youtube.com videos.... not an issue as this is only an event that occurs during heating season and I suspect you won't be lounging on the porch, in any event. (My unit never defrosts if the outside temp is below 25 degrees.)

Best of luck.

I asked my architect about natural gas and size of house this is his response.

There are 2,562 square feet of finished interior space (includes the attic
closets), and there are 783 square feet of porch space.

No natural gas in that area, and you probably won't ever see it there.
Propane tanks are commonly used for storage of heating fuel throughout
Maine, and it is generally preferable to oil due to fuel costs and because
gas boilers have a higher operating efficiency than oil boilers.

I listened to other heat pump videos and a LG one was silent. Of course it probably wasn't in the defrost cycle. I am curious- if you can hear your neighbors, doesn't that mean it's loud? I see what you mean about not likely to be outside in the winter. What about the autumn? We are likely to be outside and I wouldn't want to hear noise. Another concern is that the AC is likely to be loud and people would definitely be out on the porch or lawn.

I think I read that if there's a lot of humidity in the house it's a problem for heat pumps. The cottage that is currently there has a humidity problem, probably because of its southern exposure.

There aren't ducts because it is going to be new construction. Hope this provided some info. Again- thank you so much for your advice. Susan

You are getting a great deal of both negative and false information. Look for a db rating of 72 db or under.

"I am curious- if you can hear your neighbors, doesn't that mean it's loud? I see what you mean about not likely to be outside in the winter."

What above means is they have old and cheap condensers.

Outside condenser should be placed close to inside air handler/furnace and where it is least likely to be a noise issue. I can say unequivocally my Trane HP is not noisy nor objectionable. Do not purchase a HP that does not have electronic demand defrost. Take a field trip and visit some neighbors' HP systems.

If humidity in summer for AC cooling is an issue for your location/climate, then you want a system that has independent dehumidify on demand feature.

Unless you have an unusual sensitivity to noise, I think you are making a big deal over nothing.

IMO

I will ask about the db rating. That's good to know. The reason I panicked was due to Jerry Kelly's video on YouTube. I figured if he sells them and he still did a video of it's very loud noise, then it must be a significant problem.

Is there a reason why we shouldn't go with propane since that seems to be the norm? Susan

I will ask about the db rating. That's good to know. The reason I panicked was due to Jerry Kelly's video on YouTube. I figured if he sells them and he still did a video of it's very loud noise, then it must be a significant problem.

Is there a reason why we shouldn't go with propane since that seems to be the norm? Susan

What is cost for propane/gal?

What is cost for electric/kWH?

Any interest in geothermal?

You might be a candidate for hybrid system-high eff heat pump with propane furnace backup.

Or straight Carrier GreenSpeed HP system.

Tell us about your winter and summer climate for your location?

Lots of possibilities.

Post back.

IMO

This post was edited by tigerdunes on Wed, May 21, 14 at 5:25

having gotten away from propane heat with heat pump
install...its a wonderful thing.

don't notice noise of my heatpump when outside in spring/summer
& if its loud in defrost...I'm inside & don't hear it.

variable speed air handler unit handles high relative
humidity inside the house very well.
here in La. humidity outside is high.

I agree that you are getting mixed/unfounded info.

best of luck.

Agree with energy rater.

Since home is new construction and I will assume excellent building and insulation qualities, perhaps go all the way electric...

Note this cottage will be in Maine.

How will vacation home be used? Regularly year round?

Propane prices usually track oil prices and this winter prices spiked sharply higher due to supply/distribution issues.

I would definitely get. Carrier GreenSpeed dealer involved. Maybe propane for backup generator.

As said, lots of possibilities. You need to get to work now.

IMO

Tiger- I tried to find answers to your questions. The house will be in midcoast ME (Harpswell). The temps in the summer are relatively cool except for heat waves. I'll still need a cooling system. The winters are very cold. I live up there from May through Oct. We will be using it occasionally in the winter.

Propane is $3.00/gallon and is expected to go lower by the fall.
Electricity is $9.36 for the first 100 kWh and 0.068920/kWh for anything above.

Wasn't sure whether you meant geothermal HP or not. Don't know how either really works. Since I am ignorant about anything to do with heating, couldn't really compare a hybrid system to Carrier's.

We had a Monitor kerosene heater in the tiny cottage and because we had to close up in Oct (no insulation, exposed water pipes) the Monitor was fine.
I guess I'll have to find some Mainers and see what they use. If the above info narrows down my options, I'd love to hear. Thanks- Susan

Call a Carrier dealer. Get some idea of pricing on an all electric GreenSpeed HP system as well as a Dual fuel hybrid Carrier system.

You need to get them involved now. Sister company Bryant has exact same equipment.

IMO
Good Luck

I think so far conversation is about heat pump split systems,
not geothermal heat pump.

geothermal costs are much higher than split systems
in my area.

I agree that you should start educating yourself
now...and understand better what different types
of systems would apply to your new home.

right now my propane costs are low also...( I have
gas stove/water heater)...it is when the weather gets
cold and you really NEED propane that the costs
skyrocket.

best of luck.

I'm not sure I understand all the factors you want to consider, but my first choice would be a high efficiency heat pump with propane backup heat. It would run off the efficient electric heat most of the time, and only kick in the propane back when the weather was really cold.

I am also surprised that an all electric heat pump would be used in Maine. I live in Northern Virginia, where folks complained last winter (relatively cold compared to normal) that heat pumps got expensive because it had to run in backup mode so much of the time. In Maine I would expect it to be on backup heat quite a bit of the time in the winter.

In this area we have natural gas piped into my neighborhood and most folks choose either that or a heat pump. I don't recall any big variation in natural gas prices last winter, but maybe propane is different. I think some propane dealers also offer a level price option for the year if you sign a delivery contract.

Bruce

This post was edited by bcarlson78248 on Fri, May 23, 14 at 9:12

I would suggest a combination of Rinnai Energysavers and mini-split heat pumps. If you are living on a lake in Maine some of your neighbors have the Rinnai's. It is the biggest market for the product nationwide. I covered that territory for 20 yrs. Any propane company in Maine is familiar with Rinnai's. For your supplemental heat Fujitsu is the largest selling brand in Maine. It is an ideal combination.

Jackfre- I am familiar with Rinnai as we had a Monitor heater before. I just read that Monitor is no longer making those heaters.

We're on the ocean in midcoast Maine. By supplemental heat, do you mean if you have a heatpump? Is that necessary because heat pumps won't work below zero degrees?
Can you think of a reason why we shouldn't just have propane heat like my neighbors? Is it the cost of the ductwork?

We really won't be up there in the winter, just the occasional weekend. The AC won't be used much except during a heat wave. Our plumber sells two kinds of heat pumps. Would he be able to demonstrate their noise?

Thank you all so much for your input. Suz

You are not listening and are wasting time.

Do not purchase heat pumps from a plumber.

You have enough information now to get started.

Get in tough with qualified dealers. I would call Carrier or Bryant mainly because of their low temp heat pump called Greenspeed and Extreme. Pair with a propane fueled backup furnace. You have cheap electric rates so an all electric should be an option as well. I see nothing wrong with propane as long as you are aware of the operating cost.

IMO

I have found the combination of the mini-split heat pump and Rinnai's to be excellent both when we lived in MA and now in the foothills of CA. On the coast you rarely need AC in Maine, but you do need dehumidification. I would not use a ducted system, unless as a part of the contract you have third party come in and pressure test the duct prior to paying for it. Duct leakage is the dirty little secret the HVAC industry doesn't like to talk about.

Propane is a very effective method of heating. The problem with lp is that typically the gas company owns the tank. As a result they put in a tank size that works for them, meaning that they will fill you every 4-6 weeks throughout the season. If you buy an underground 1000 gal tank you an control your fills and shop for pricing from a lot of companies.

Todays heat pumps will work well at low temps. Generally the output will decline a bit as temps fall, but they do produce excellent heat. Carefully check the specs against the temps you actually see in ME. My mini-splits heat very well, but not as well as my gas fired Rinnai's. I find the combination to be excellent and efficient. As well, I have very comfortable zone control with the combination.

You are correct on the Monitor. They have been out of business for the last 6 or so years.

I would not think heating and cooling a cottage which is primarily used in the summer would be so complicated. I would recommend keeping it simple and go all electric with a heat pump. I would get the propane if you don't like going on an electric stove. Otherwise it does not seem worth the extra expense of burying a big tank and having to worry about it in the future.

unless I missed something...this is the first mention
of plumber/hvac dual trades.

I'd be leary of plumber doing hvac...
it takes education to be a master plumber
and it takes education to be hvac contractor.
I"ve never heard of these trades being combined.

if you have $$'s for architect & vacation cottage..
you have $$ for hvac company that does hvac
exclusively. don't cut corners on things that matter OP.

get a minimum of bids..from hvac companies.

as TD says...read & apply info you have
gotten so far. don't just throw your $$ away.

seeing the oversized holes that plumbers cut for piping
I'd run from a plumber doing hvac install.

on thinking about it more...I have worked with an
a/c company that was plumbing & a/c. both different
installers company co-owned & co-managed by
master plumber & top of the line hvac people.
but it is rare...in 15+ years...& thousands of
homes I"ve seen...one company. so beware.

please reread the replys & as always...

best of luck.

Tiger dunes- Actually, I have been listening and researched everyone's suggestions. I apologize for wasting people's time.

It is sites like below that caused my concern.

http://www.ductworkinstallation.com/NoiseReduction/HeatPumpNoise/tabid/274/Default.aspx

A big thank you to all who took the time to respond. Suz

I personally think we're headed for a world with plumbers doing HVAC installs, if some of the worst in the field don't watch their backs. That being said, I wouldn't want a plumber anywhere near my home cooling/heating.

While HVAC isn't a science, it's way more of an art than plumbing and does take a fair amount of knowledge and practical experience. :)

In the NY - NJ area it is not unusual to find companies that are HVAC contractors and have master plumbing licenses. I know of at least one that is also a Carrier Factory Authorized dealer.

Suz04079,

You seem to be very concerned about noisy heat pumps. Did you have noise problems in the past? What are your expectations about noise levels?

In the past I've lived in homes that you may hear the heat come on (a few seconds) and then there was no sound.
I've lived with an electric baseboard heater in the kitchen but it makes quite a bit of noise.
I find it difficult to ignore the videos on the links that I've posted. I can't imagine having people on the porch hearing that noise while I'm in the house staying cool.
I think what it comes down to is that you guys are being fiscally responsible by buying the most cost-effective and efficient method of heating. Since I won't be using the heat and/or AC all that much, it becomes a matter of making the least sound. I will still look further into the various heat sources that have been mentioned.

Thanks- Suz