It seems this should have been discussed with you prior to install either by dealer or GC. I would tell them to stop any further work until you have that conversation.

Depending on specs, models, and efficiency that were outlined, I would prefer Carrier and Trane myself.

What is your location?

IMO

I am about an hour north of New York City. I agree this should have been discussed long before but it is in writing in the contract documents so it's the HVAC sub who either didn't know or tried to pull a fast one. Luxaire is apparently his brand of choice. I understand it is pretty low-end builder's brand. This is a custom house with a mix of high-end and upper middle range everything else. Do you think I should tell him to pull them out (2 air handlers in already - one in the attic and one in the basement) or just let it go? I need good information about Luxaire as well as encouragement. THanks.

You should either get the equipment you specified, or a refund on money as compensation. Luxaire equipment in a custom home in a New York suburb is out of place in my opinion. You should be getting at least the mid range equipment from Carrier or Trane.

What exactly does your contract with the builder specify? You need tell him the equipment is not acceptable and not appropriate for a custom built home with high end features.

What are you doing for heating? Whose idea was it to put one air handler in the attic? If it were my house both air handlers would be in the basement.

I assume it was the HVAC contractor who put the air handler in the attic. I guess it was easier to get the a/c up to the second floor. The attic is really only a tiny space in the ridge over the second floor - it's a cape style house. There is plenty of room in the basement, though. The heating is all in-floor hydronic radiant panels. Pretty expensive stuff. The contractor and subs should have realized we were not looking for cheap equipment in this house. I am going to ask him to replace it with Trane or Carrier - how do I determine that he's not putting in the lowest end of those brands - that we're getting the kind of equipment that belongs in this house?

I am going to ask him to replace it with Trane or Carrier - how do I determine that he's not putting in the lowest end of those brands - that we're getting the kind of equipment that belongs in this house?

Get the model numbers and post back. There are many forum members that will be able to report on the level of quality and efficiency of the Carrier and Trane systems.

IMO

All in-floor radiant heating and the builder thinks you should have a Luxaire AC! At the very least they could have offered you a chance to upgrade your AC system. I suspect the radiant heat come in more expensive than the builder had budgeted and now he has to save money on the AC costs.

Be prepared for a good fight. Get the model numbers and sizes of the equipment they proposed to use. Ask to see a copy of the Manual J load calculations and Manual D duct sizing. This will indicate if the HVAC contractor is doing a quality installation or not.

For the record, the radiant heat was way more than the builder budgeted for hydroair and we paid the entire amount, so he doesn't have any losses on that. This is a "custom" house - on our own lot, replacing a house we tore down. Nothing should be standard so I am pretty ticked off to see we are getting builder grade anything! I got the architect involved (which is difficult in itself because he and the builder work together a lot and pass jobs to each other) and as a result the builder told me he will put in Carrier condensers. I told him I wanted the air handlers replaced with matched units and he insisted they are made by Carrier but had a different label. I believe he said it was First Company. The architect told me even in his own house he has First Company AH with a different brand of condenser and it works fine. I asked for the models of both air handlers and the condensers he is planning. When I get that information I will post it for feedback. I doubt there was any formal load calculation done, only because the HVAC guy seems to run on automatic and not too swift. I think he'd hit the roof if I asked one more question - but I'll try. Thanks so much for you feedback and prompting - stay tuned.

Also, just to show how off-the-mark our contractor is, the contract, as drafted by our architect, called for a Buderus boiler and the plumber tried repeatedly to get us to switch to a less expensive brand. I thought it was because he wasn't familiar with Buderus but he insists it was because the other brands are just as good but cost less. I couldn't evaluate so I stuck to the Buderus. The company that services the boiler at the house we've been living in for 25 years said he works on everything and Buderus was great so we chose not to save money there. Obviously my contractor doesn't understand when it comes to mechanicals we are prepared to spend in order to maximize our chances of satisfaction. Can anyone tell me if First Company is indeed made by Carrier as my contractor claims, and if it is fully compatible with Carrier condensers? Thanks.

I had never hear of First Company so I needed to satisfy my curiosity. I found a link for the their web site. I see no relationship to Carrier or International Comfort Products. ICP is a division of Carrier which makes other lower cost products which are typically used by home builders.

It looks like First Company manufactures air handlers for commercial buildings and multi-family homes. It makes no sense why the builder would choose this equipment for a custom home.

You should insist on getting a matched system. All matched system have an AHRI directory number. The match indicates the parts are compatible. The manufacturer has to measure and post the performance of the system. When you mix brands of equipment you don't know their efficiency rating. There is no reason to be mixing brands on a new installation.

Here is a link that might be useful: First Company

Why pay an architect for his expertise and then have a dealer overrule his recommendation?

I would fire the dealer. He appears to be looking out for himself, not his customer.

IMO

I am an owner's representative dealing with construction for a company that has many different locations and projects ongoing. Assuming that the architect's specified brands are part of the contract you are well within your rights to demand that the specified products be put in. You could, as someone else has mentioned, ask for a large deduct from your contract with the home builder as another option.

Lastly, unless the architect's specification noted the model numbers or other specific identifying information regarding the specified system your contractor is within his rights to put the least costly model of the specified brand(s).

Luxaire was never speced.

IMO

Absolutely correct - but here's my dilemma. The air handlers, supposedly First Company, are already installed. The condensers are not. From what I gather, First Company doesn't make condensers but their equipment is used with other brands. I have nixed the Luxaire and the sub is willing to install Carrier. Yes, probably will be the low end, but how do I know? and how do I know that it is adequate for the house/load etc.? The architect did not specify any models - just brands. Furthermore, to delay would mean the construction comes to a halt since we can't do any more interior work without the hardwood flooring which is waiting for a conditioned house. (Although at my own expense I have rented 5 commercial dehumidifiers and air movers to begin to dry the place out since it has never been conditioned in the past year it was under construction.) So I am trying to move things along but am afraid of problems down the road - including poor efficiency and reliability. I simply don't know how to untangle this mess. Firing the GC would leave me with an incomplete house, not just one without AC. I will post the First Company specs when the GC sends them to me although I'm not sure I can trust his accuracy - I may have to go up into the attic myself to see if I can find anything. Thanks.

I don't see how you can get a matching system with a First Company air handler with any brand of condenser. This has the makings of a royal screwup that you the homeowner will suffer. Best case is to have the air handler removed and dismiss the dealer. Next best is still have air handler removed and start all over with this dealer that includes Carrier or Trane,med to high efficiency, and matching components.

Just curious. What is fuel source for boiler?

IMO

I don't understand the how you went from Luxaire to First Company. If the air handler, coil, and condenser were all Luxaire equipment you would at least have a matched system with a 10 year warranty from one manufacturer.

Since the line set has not been installed it should not be too difficult to swap out the air handler. The Carrier air handler can be installed the same time as the condenser.

You need to ask the general contractor to put in the architect specified brand. His job is to deal the HVAC subcontractor. He may very well never have told the HVAC company about the architect's specified brands. You really don't care who made the error...you want it fixed. A reputable GC will take care of the problem.

Since you have an architect involved is the architect reviewing the pay applications? Even if he's not hold back enough money to easily replace whatever components aren't Carrier if the GC doesn't take care of it right away.

As noted by mike_home removing the airhanders and replacing them shouldn't be a lengthy process. My guess maybe a day or two at most to accomplish the swap outs with a decent crew.

Thanks, to you all for your advice. It is very helpful. Road-king, the architect, has been sloppy about reviewing and approving invoices and wants to stay on good terms with the GC whom he recommended, so he is not likely to put our interests before his own. He himself said yesterday that his own AC system has First Company air handler and Rheem condenser and it works fine. The GC insists the First Company is made by Carrier. Mike_home, apparently it was just the condensers (2) that were going to be Luxaire. The air handlers that were installed a few months ago are First Company although I haven't seen any labels and was not told this until a few days ago. I only learned about it because I asked rather casually what brand of condenser was going in, expecting it to be either Carrier or Trane. Until a few days ago, I didn't know anything about AC units or about matched sets etc. You folks have been a great source of information and I am otherwise totally ignorant - and would have been happy to remain that way if I could rely on an honest contractor and his subs. Tigerdunes, I understand that First Company doesn't make condensers - just air handlers. So how does anyone use them for AC? Are there no condensers that are compatible? Luxaire would not have been acceptable to me under any conditions, including a refund. I want a good AC system, not a piece of junk I will have to deal with in terms of break-downs, inadequacy and electricity consumption. I would like to outsource the AC myself but since the ductwork and air handlers are in, I will have a lot of out-of-pocket costs. By the way, the fuel for the boiler is propane - I just buried a 1000 gallon tank in the front yard.

Elle

You have rec'd good advice but apparently intent on ignoring it. That's OK because it's your system, not mine. I hate to see homeowners run over by GCs and their dealers though when they are paying the bills. Obviously you are having a custom built home but are getting ready to install a third rate mismatched HVAC system.

Enough on that for the moment. Since you have a propane fueled boiler, I would install heat pumps rather than straight AC systems. But if operating costs are not important to you, then disregard this advice as well.

Good Luck!
You may just need it.
IMO

Wait, wait, tigerdunes! I am not ignoring any advice - just taking it in, weighing my options and trying to be pragmatic at the same time. I have a contract and an unfinished house. I will not accept mismatched AC units that don't conform to the contract. My dilemma is how to resolve this. Do I fire the GC, make him do what's in the contract (contrary to my architect's opinion), tell him to get another HVAC contractor and do the right thing, hire another HVAC contractor myself etc. I have to be prepared for everything to grind to a halt and I might not get my house finished for another year. Good contractors are not easy to find and we've already been at this for a year. I told the GC he had to put in either Carrier or Trane since that's what the architect himself sepcified. He agreed to put Carrier condensers but insisted the air handlers (First Company) were made by Carrier. How do I know? I said I wanted them removed and the architect who was standing there said they would be compatible with Carrier. When I insisted on seeing the specs as per earlier comments here, he slapped his hand against the wall and walked away. So the people I'm paying to watch my back aren't doing so at all. The prospect of firing the GC altogether is not a pretty one. We have no C of O and I have no house. If I fire him, there will be a lawsuit. It will delay work on the house and there's no telling when I will be able to move in. This is not a simple question of what to do about the A/C. I am indeed relying on all the good advice here so I can be armed and fortified to stand up to the GC and the architect. I appreciate everything everyone has said. Thanks.

Here is the latest information I got from my GC. How do I evaluate what he is proposing when he gets me the specifics? How do I know if he is really correct in stating that the air handlers are compatible with the condensers? Also - the urgency is resolving the a/c is partly because all remaining interior work except for bathroom tile is dependent on having the hardwood floors installed and the hardwood can't be delivered until the house is conditioned. Relative humidity was about 80% 2 days ago and the flooring was on the truck. I rented commercial dehumidifiers and air movers just to dry the place out but told the GC to get the A/C in. ASAP. So we're in a little bit of a bind. Thanks.

"The air handler name First Company was talked about yesterday, but that was not correct.
The Air Handlers are by International Comfort Products and are produced by Carrier. I saw a Carrier unit today and it is exactly the same.
I will get the exact model numbers ASAP.
I can get you the Carrier Brand condensers to match if you like. Again I need get the exact model numbers for you. I can offer you the Heil brand models (also by Carrier) with an equal warranty and as free upgrade we will upgrade the Model and/or the Warranty to be greater than the Carrier Brand. The A/C installer will also upgrade his required warranty on labor in writing. The Heil Units are available by Tues/ Wed but the Carrier units will take 4 -7 days longer"

Elle,

The GC is back tracking and changing his story. All of a sudden it is not First Company but he can't tell which manufacturer it is. He is correct that International Comfort Products is a division of Carrier. However they are not the same products. The brands they make are Heil, Tempstar, Arcoaire, as well as several others. This is second and third tier equipment. It is the equivalent of saying Chevrolet and Cadillac are the same because they are both made by GM.

The GC is also pressuring you with time. How does he know the time delivery when the model hasn't been selected?

Are you able to go into the attic and take pictures of the air handler? Maybe you will stumble onto other things you don't like about the installation.

As far as compatibility goes, you can slap together just about any two air handlers and condensers and make them function. How efficiently they will operate is anyone's guess. You want and paying for an approved match of equipment. Ask for the AHRI number for the system. If he does not know what that means tell him to ask his HVAC subcontractor.

Here is a link that might be useful: AHRI Directory

Thanks, mike_home. I am going to climb up to the attic - it's full of ductwork and hard to get around in but I'll try. I can certainly check unit in the basement. I understand the GM/Cadillac/Chevy comparison perfectly. Is there a low end Carrier that is actually lower than ICP? I think the GC just left everything up to his subs - he wasn't really paying much attention to them. He is a nice guy, kind of naive himself, and probably getting ripped off as much as I am. Also doesn't appreciate I am looking for a certain level of quality that he is probably just not familiar with - not luxury, but solid, reliable and efficient that I won't be replacing in 5 years. By his own admission he has garbage installed in his own house because that's all he could afford. I will report back with whatever information I can get although I question the accuracy of what he will tell me.

Carrier offers three lines of equipment from from bottom to top. They are Comfort, Performance, and Infinity. They used to offer a Base series that was probably equivalent to the ICP brands, but they seem to have dropped it. The Base level was intended to be the builder's grade of equipment. The Comfort series appears to be good quality with no frills.

Here is a link that might be useful: Carrier air conditioners

Comfort series OK, would prefer the Performance series however both with matching var speed air handlers.

Since your primary fuel source is propane, I would make these heat pump systems for milder weather to help offset the more expensive propane...

Lower end Carrier?...yep it's called Payne. I wouldn't have it nor any ICP brand.

I don't understand why you are letting your GC and his dealer run all over you. Maybe I am mistaken but I thought you were the customer.

IMO

I got the product and model numbers off the air handlers that were installed in my house. They are ICP, NOT Carrier although the contractor has agreed to put Carrier condensers outside.

Air handler for main living area (about 1800 sqft): Product # FXM4X2400A1, Model # FXM4X2400A
Air Handler in the attic for 2nd half-story (about 600 sqft): FXM4X4800A1.

The primary exposure is a south-facing 40' wall which is mainly windows.

I would like to know if these units are any good and if they would be compatible with any Carrier equipment. The contractor has offered to put Heil condensers in but did not say which ones. The contract we have (drafted by our architect) calls for "air handlers with a/c condensers by Carrier or Trane, 16 SEER variable speed." I know I didn't get Carrier or Trane and I have said i want these removed and replaced which has my contractor crazed. But I'm curious to know if the ICP equipment is comparable and if 16 SEER could be achieved with it. Yes, I am still going to insist on having them replaced, but I am curious to know what exactly was installed, whether it's any good or just builder grade stuff and whether my contractor and/or his sub is trying to rip me off. I'd also like to know if there is something better than the Carrier that was specified - or rather how to achieve the best fit for the house. Humidity is a bigger issue than heat While it does get hot during the days, it is humid round the clock.

There's a lot more at stake here than just the A/C and I've totally trusted this guy for the past year and paid for lots of upgrades. This A/C discovery makes me wonder what else is not as it should be in this house. I am very grateful to you all for your opinions, advice and expertise. You've given me the information I needed to stand up to him and the architect. Thank you.

I got the product and model numbers off the air handlers that were installed in my house. They are ICP, NOT Carrier although the contractor has agreed to put Carrier condensers outside.

Air handler for main living area (about 1800 sqft): Product # FXM4X2400A1, Model # FXM4X2400A
Air Handler in the attic for 2nd half-story (about 600 sqft): FXM4X4800A1.

The primary exposure is a south-facing 40' wall which is mainly windows.

I would like to know if these units are any good and if they would be compatible with any Carrier equipment. The contractor has offered to put Heil condensers in but did not say which ones. The contract we have (drafted by our architect) calls for "air handlers with a/c condensers by Carrier or Trane, 16 SEER variable speed." I know I didn't get Carrier or Trane and I have said i want these removed and replaced which has my contractor crazed. But I'm curious to know if the ICP equipment is comparable and if 16 SEER could be achieved with it. Yes, I am still going to insist on having them replaced, but I am curious to know what exactly was installed, whether it's any good or just builder grade stuff and whether my contractor and/or his sub is trying to rip me off. I'd also like to know if there is something better than the Carrier that was specified - or rather how to achieve the best fit for the house. Humidity is a bigger issue than heat While it does get hot during the days, it is humid round the clock.

There's a lot more at stake here than just the A/C and I've totally trusted this guy for the past year and paid for lots of upgrades. This A/C discovery makes me wonder what else is not as it should be in this house. I am very grateful to you all for your opinions, advice and expertise. You've given me the information I needed to stand up to him and the architect. Thank you.

When I Google these models it comes back as a Sears part number. I suppose ICP manufactures these air handlers for Sears.

Do you have the model numbers reversed? The FXM4X2400A1 is a 2 ton air handler, the FXM4X4800A1is a 4 ton air handler.

If by reversed you mean the upstairs one switched with the downstairs one, no. I checked the time stamp on the photos and I took them about 30 minutes apart. I'm posting pictures of the stickers on the 2 units. I'm surprised that the upstairs unit is the larger one, if indeed that's the way they are. It is just one zone and the downstairs unit is supposed to be 2 zones. however, much of the upstairs zone is open to the living room below on the first floor and maybe they felt it would get hotter upstairs as warm air drifted up from below so a larger unit would be better to keep both floors cool. I am just surmising. I thought we were actually getting a 3 ton condenser for downstairs and a 2 ton condenser for upstairs. We've discussed the outside locations and the downstairs unit it supposed to be the larger and probably louder of the 2 I was told. The 4 ton air-handler is a surprise to me - but I'm learning to expect surprises now. I have no idea what the contractor had in mind with these. So I have to start over. In insisting on Carrier equipment, what should I be expecting in terms of models? I want quiet as well as efficient. I am willing to put in some money to upgrade Carrier equipment or go with another brand for greater efficiency, reliability and comfort (including quiet). I want to give my contractor the chance to correct this mistake but if he refuses, I will go it alone. Thanks.

Here is the sticker from the air handler in the attic - I thought it serves the upstairs but I could have the configuration wrong. Maybe it also serves part of the downstairs area, too. I can check that with the contractor.

These appear to be ICP ,possibly Heil, air handlers. They have high efficient blower motors but are not var speed. And they definitely would not be compatible with Carrier brand condensers. Link below.

Your dealer continues to lead you down the primrose path. The sad part is you are following. Too bad.

IMO

Here is a link that might be useful: Heil Air Handlers

I'm not following my contractor down any path at all! I've you'd have heard me telling him to take them out, you'd know! I am trying to arm myself with all the accurate information I can because this may well lead to a lawsuit. Even my architect is against me. And I will tell you something I hoped to leave out of this conversation but I think it is definitely part of the dynamic between my contractor and me. I am an over-sixty woman who they probably think would be easy to fool and push-over. I'm not but when it comes to construction, it's not something I have any training or education in, especially the fine points of the trades. It's been a bit of a struggle over the past year, for me to insist I get what I want. And this A/C issue would never have risen to visibility if I hadn't stood my ground and insisted he condition the house before the oak flooring was delivered and acclimated before installation. Did I mention that I MYSELF rented commercial dehumidifers ($2800/month) to dry the house out so he could keep working? But I told him he had to have the A/C working before the wood was delivered and I asked which brand he was getting, Carrier or Trane? That's when this all started, last week. So please don't think I'm a pushover 'cause I'm not. I'm more of a thorn in his side. But I need folks like you to keep me strong and armed with correct information or else I'm just a cranky old lady making his life difficult. Thanks.

I would be concerned the equipment is not sized properly and will not be efficient or provide comfort regardless of the brand. I have no faith in this HVAC contractor.

I have no faith in him, either, mike. I don't know if I can throw him off the job at this point, but I definitely want to know more about how he sized the system. However, I don't understand any of this and couldn't do the calculations myself. Other than hiring someone new, is there anyway a homeowner can figure out how big each unit should be and if she's getting what she needs or is being sold a bill of goods? Also, I learned that the larger of the 2 air handlers was put in the attic to handle the entire second floor as well as the main living area below- it is open to the second floor through a cathedral ceiling. Only the masterbedroom is on the air handler in the basement. Now I am concerned that the air handler in the attic will be very noisy because it is in the attic just above the cathedral ceiling and the sound will carry and possibly be amplified all over the house. Is there any way to dampen the sound? It wouldn't be as much of a problem if the house weren't so open but the first floor living area is essentially one big space with an 18' ceiling that's open to the second floor. I haven't heard it running because it's not hooked up - and never will be because I have asked my contractor to replace it with the proper equipment. So this is my chance to take any preventive measures. Thanks.

You can do your own load calculation for $49 using HVAC-Calc.

I am not a fan of having HVAC equipment in an uninsulated attic. I don't understand installing equipment in the attic to cool the first floor.

Here is a link that might be useful: HVAC-Calc

I agree about AC in an uninsulated attic but the reasoning was that it eliminated the need for extensive ductwork in the basement which only has 7' ceilings. The ducts would have had to run about 60 feet from one end of the house to the other in order to cool the entire first floor from below. i think it's a toss-up if the contractor is really correct in his description of what the ductwork would have been like. I wouldn't have wanted to kill so much of the basement. Nonetheless, judging from how things have been going on this project, they probably did what they did because it was easier for them. Thanks for the link to HVAC-Calc. I will check it out.

I am taking your advice and going to do the HVAC on my own. I've had 2 authorized dealers take a look so far. Will have 2 more. I've gotten one proposal back and the second guy will do one but his will be time-consuming and I hesitate to have him put a lot of work into the proposal when I'm still interviewing others. He said he would not be happy if he didn't get the job. I can't promise he'd be the one. NOTE: No load calculations were ever done on this house for heat or AC. I just learned this yesterday - 1 year into the job. The second AC dealer wants to do load calculations but, as I said, we've come so far and have limitations. Would it be worth his time? The first proposal goes like this:

Remove incorrect air handlers and install
2 Trane variable speed Hyperion AH
2 Trane 2-stage SL16i condensers
install Honeywell control system - digital programmable with WIFI
replace all flex ducts on 2nd floor (I believe they're 6 or 7") with new 10" round flex with larger difusers
Install 2nd return in ceiling on 2nd floor, redo existing return ducts

The total cost of all this is $14,650. He also proposed installing a secondary heat source. We have Viega radiant heat panels in the floors but there is some concern that it will be adequate given the level of quality of the HVAC work and a poor experience with the electrical sub. There are 4 options for supplementary heat proposed:
1. Hot water coils in the AHs: $3400
2. Electric heaters: $700 plus cost of running electric lines
3. Carrier Heat pump (would mean using carrier equipment, not Train) $2900on top of AH price
4. Carrier Infinity 20 greenspeed heat pump - $5400 on top of AH price

I have no specific model numbers from him - I suppose he doesn't want me to be able to compare prosals directly.

Any reactions?

My reaction is if you install heat pumps then don't need to turn on the radiant heat.

Did the same sub-contractor install the radiant heat?

I am curious to know the cost of a whole house radiant system. Does it have multiple zones?

I'm not sure how well a heat pump would work as full-time heat in my area. They're not commonly used. We intend to use mainly the radiant heat. Installers have suggested either a heating coil or heat pump when offering proposals for the A/C since we already have the ductwork and will have air handlers. A plumber installed the radiant heat It was designed by the plumbing supply house, maybe in conjunction with Viega, but no load calculation was done. Couldn't tell you the cost of the heat because it was combined with all the rest of the plumbing and the cost of the originally planned hydroair system was credited against it. There are 3 zones on the heat, running off a Buderus LP boiler. It may turn out that we don't need any auxiliary heat, especially since we have a Lennox LP gas fireplace (I think about 35,000 BTU). We may opt for electric heater on the air handlers or some Runtal rads or similar if we really need more but we thought it worth considering if we're doing air handlers right now.