I will assume your home will have excellent building and insulation qualities.

Your heating fuel is nat gas?

Two separate systems with var speed furnaces with minimum 15 SEER AC condensers.

Carrier/Bryant and Trane/AmStd are the brands I would be looking at.

I wouldn't consider guessing at the cost without knowing more details and complete scope of work.

Be sitting down though. It will not be cheap.

IMO

This post was edited by tigerdunes on Sat, May 17, 14 at 12:34

Thank you so much Tigerdunes!

Yes. It will be nat gas.

Main floor has 9FT ceiling
Upper floor has 8FT ceiling

They say 1 furnace will be in the attic, and second one will put in basement.

2' x 4' framing

With your expertise, What series of brands you have suggested should be use?

On Trane, 60 K XV95 downstairs, 60 K XV80 for upstairs or same equivalents from AmStd dealer. Both will require two stage thermostats. Since you have nat gas, no need for HPs. AC condensers no lower than 15 SEER. HW VP IAQ thermostat with or without WiFi.

On Carrier, same size downstairs 59TN6 Infinity 96, 58CVA 70 K Infinity 80. Both would require Infinity controllers, with or without WiFi. Again, minimum 15 SEER AC condensers no lower than the Performance series level. Same available from sister company Bryant.

You will want at a minimum a pleated fiter media cabinet for each system. Best matching evap coil from manufacturer, no third party coil.

Of course my sizing is only a guesstimate and should be verified by a professionally performed load calc.

BTW,special attention both with insulation and HVAC CFMs should be paid attention to bonus room. FROGs , finished rooms over garage, are notorious for heating and cooling.

Ductwork for each system should have plenty of return for good airflow and minimum R8 insulation. I prefer individual room returns but several central returns on each system would be OK as long as strategically located for best airflow.

I suggest as time is available you go to both Trane/AmStd and Carrier/Bryant websites.

IMO

This post was edited by tigerdunes on Sun, May 18, 14 at 9:57

If this is a custom home then ask the builder if he can install both furnaces in the basement. This will allow both furnaces to be high efficiency and you won't have to contend with duct work in an unconditioned attic.

Good idea by Mike but due to sizing and location/climate, not really a big deal. There are some situations where people should think more about close sizing over whether furnace is 80% versus 95%+. Because of the way brands size equipment, an 80% in many cases is a better choice on operating cost than a high eff condensing furnace and can be less expensive both upfront and installation cost.

IMO

I am more concerned about the duct work in the attic than the 80% vs. 95% efficiency furnace. There is a significant amount of heating and cooling loss. In some cases the loss is large enough the affect the load calculation.

The down side it increases the installation costs. But it is a small amount compared to the cost of building a new house.

Mike and Tigerdunes, your posts are very informative! Thank you so much!

Tigerdunes, two systems you posted were they included Heat and Air? I went to their website saw commercial series gas forced only.

What are roughly costs for those?

First question, yes. Pay attention.

I would not even attempt to speculate about pricing.

If your pricing is coming through a GC, sit down and be prepared to be gouged. If through an HVAC dealer direct, then you will be treated more reasonably. GC normally quotes low end builder grade base and then stiffs their client with upgrades.

Don't believe you were looking at correct website. I will list below the residential links for both Trane and Carrier. Let me know if I can help.

IMO

https://www.trane.com/residential

http://www.carrier.com/homecomfort/en/us/

Tigerdunes,

I can not find either model of Trane on their website that you posted.

Your search - trane 60 K XV80 - did not match any documents.
No pages were found containing "trane 60 K XV80" .

Also, could you please post the pair of HVAC and gas forced with dehumidifier for Trane/Carrier/Ame Standard. The ones you posted above for gas forced only?

Thank you!

60K is the size.

Models are XV80 and XV95. Link attached

Not sure I understand last question. Dehumidifier and humidifiers are a separate component. Look at websites.

IMO

Here is a link that might be useful: Trane Residential Gas Furnaces

Tigerdunes,

The one you posted is for gas furnace. What about central air?

My builder recommended a dehumidifier for my basement after built.

Thank you

" AC condensers no lower than 15 SEER." From my first post.

Depends on single stage or two stage. No lower than XR15 or XL15i for your NC location. See link.

Of course, you only want the best matching Trane evap coil for the system configuration.

IMO

Here is a link that might be useful: Trane AC Condensers

This post was edited by tigerdunes on Sun, May 25, 14 at 6:11

Below is the quote from GC's HVAC guy.
Your thoughts please! Thank You!

Description Cost Total
Install American Standard Gold SI 4A7A3042, 3 1/2 ton 13 seer Air
Conditioner system with Gold XI AUH1B080A9H31C, 95% efficient gas
furnace to condition main level .
Install American Standard Gold SI 4A7A3042 3 1/2 ton 13 seer Air
Conditioner system with Gold XI AUH1B080A9H31C, 95% efficient gas
furnace to condition upper level. UNIT IS SIZED TO CONDITION
BONUS ROOM FOR FUTURE USE.
Estimate includes two complete duct systems with air registers and four
foldout return grills. two digital thermostats, pads under outdoor units,
auxiliary drain pans with overflow switches, refrigerant and drain lines.
Install dryer vent and termination.
Install flex duct to five bath fans.
Warranty - Ten years all parts, One year labor.
17,650.00
Install gas line to two furnaces, fireplace, cooktop, and tankless water
heater.
1,100.00
Install vent to kitchen hood with termination. 300.00
Return to house at a later date and add two supply ducts and one return duct
to bonus room.
500.00
$19,550.00

I don't see anything wrong with pricing.

I would want to see load calculation both heating and cooling to support the sizes of both the furnaces and AC condensers.

I would want to know the evap coil Mdl numbers quoted.

Where does dealer plan to install the furnace for the upstairs zone?

What model thermostats? They should be 2 stage models.

I would upgrade to the 15 SEER AC condenser. You were quoted the 13 SEER model.

What about filter cabinet for both systems? You will need them.

More details needed on ductwork systems. R8 insulation? How many returns for each system? Galv trunk lines with flex runs?

IMO

This post was edited by tigerdunes on Tue, May 27, 14 at 14:02

Tigerdunes,

I copied and pasted your post to email and ask GC to have HVAC guy provide those numbers you were requesting. Seems they do not want and asked me to meet in person to explain.
What you think? should I stop and look for another builder better than signing construction agreement in blinded quotes?

Thank You

You are the purchaser. GC/HVAC needs to fill in the details. Nothing secret about that. The items I mentioned are legitimate/reasonable and not out of the ordinary plus no proprietary information involved here. Meet with him in person, go over the list I gave you, and take good notes.

The equipment quoted is good-AmStd one of my fav brands.

Make certain they understand you will not sign any paperwork without an understanding they will perform a Man J load calc for correct sizing with a detailed copy to you by each zone on the software letterhead.

IMO

This post was edited by tigerdunes on Tue, May 27, 14 at 15:30

GC says sign construction agreement now and I will have 3 months to get HVAC prices later after grading started.

What do you think?

Thank You.

Very unreasonable....Why would a GC act this way over an HVAC sub...That is ridiculous...stand your ground or send send him packing...

TD

Ditto. This is a very big red flag. Tell the guy you're not signing anything until EACH and EVERY question you have is answered satisfactorily.

He called me yesterday morning and asked to meet in person, and said no because I do not know what are you talking about. Just please response to questions that my friend were asked (Tigerdune as my friend :-) ). The guy asked can I talk to him.
No, please answer those emails first.
He says ok.
Am unsure when though

GC told me today that it takes several days to do J manual calculate. Is it true?

Am waiting for this to get started for lot grading

Thank You!

It should take 15 - 30 minutes to enter all the data from the house plans into the Manual J software program. Once the data is entered the results are available immediately.

It sounds like the GC is stalling for time.

I would measure all the data myself to be inputted into the Manual J. Saves your guy lots of time.

Better yet, I would do it myself as well. From my brief experience, out of three manual J's only one came close to my own numbers. One in particular was off by almost a ton.

http://www.loadcalc.net/

For a free calculator, it's a pretty impressive project and worth a donation if you receive any benefit from it.

For a custom home your size and 2 zones, no more than 4 hrs for an experienced pro who has done this before. In this case, he should have house plans with specs which really makes inputting data quite easy.

IMO

The house has not been built yet. The OP is probably not going to get a copy of the plans.

Any HVAC contractor who does not not a Manual J calculation on new construction should be fired immediately.

This post was edited by mike_home on Mon, Jun 2, 14 at 22:14

The GC certainly has house plans and there is always more than one set. This definitely could be shared with HVAC dealer for the Man J load calc. No excuse not getting a prompt Man J performed, completed, and in writing on the software's letterhead.

TD

Yes, GC has 4 sets of my blueprints. I have not started anything yet.

I received just one hour ago:

Residential Heat Loss and Heat Gain Calculation 6/3/2014
In accordance with ACCA Manual J Report Hickory, N.C. Design Conditions: Hickory Indoor: Outdoor: Summer temperature: 72 Summer temperature: 92 Winter temperature: 70 Winter temperature: 22 Relative humidity: 50 Summer grains of moisture: 91 Daily temperature range: Medium Building Component Sensible Latent Total Total Gain Gain Heat Gain Heat Loss (BTUH) (BTUH) (BTUH) (BTUH) Whole House 4,389.5 sq.ft. 54,294 28,703 82,997 88,240 ( 7 tons )

First Floor 29,599 17,988 47,587 51,287

Master, Baths, and Breakfast 800 sq.ft. 8,604 4,692 13,296 14,373

Family, Kitchen, Dining ,Living 1,248 sq.ft. 20,995 13,296 34,291 36,914

Upper Level 24,695 10,716 35,411 36,953 Master,

Bathrooms, Bedroom 2 1,449 sq.ft. 15,410 7,012 22,422 21,530

Bonus 690 sq.ft. 6,491 2,384 8,875 10,931

Bedroom 4 202 sq.ft. 2,794 1,320 4,114 4,492

Whole House 4,389.5 sq.ft. 54,294 28,703 82,997 88,240 ( 7 tons ) HVAC-Calc Residential 4.0 by HVAC Computer Systems Ltd.

Load calculations are estimates only, actual loads may vary due to weather and construction differences.

And he add to his email:

"I have upgrade the Air Conditioners to 15 seer which also required a furnace upgrade to 2 stage, variable speed. The furnace BTU is larger than needed but are required to achieve 15 seer. The thermostats are 2 stage IAQ models. The duct work is metal truck with R 8 insulation and flex branch lines.
I included the humidifier for the main level and dehumidifier for the basement.
Ive also attached the load calculation and the AHRI certificate for the equipment proposed. I hope I have covered everything."

Description Cost Total Install American Standard Gold XI 4A7A6042, 3 1/2 ton 15 seer Air Conditioner system with Gold ZM AUH2C100A9V5VB, 95% efficient two stage variable speed gas furnace with Coil model 4TXCC049BC3HCB to condition main level .

Install American Standard Gold XI 4A7A6042, 3 1/2 ton 15 seer Air Conditioner system with Gold ZM AUH2C100A9V5VB, 95% efficient two stage variable speed gas furnace with Coil model 4TXCC049BC3HCB to condition upper level AND BONUS ROOM.

Estimate includes two complete duct systems constructed of round metal trunk line and flex branch lines with R 8.0 insulation, with air registers and four foldout return grills. two Honeywell IAQ two stage thermostats, pads under outdoor units, auxiliary drain pans with overflow switches, refrigerant and drain lines.

Install dryer vent and termination.
Install flex duct to five bath fans.
Warranty - Ten years all parts, One year labor. 21,850.00

Install gas lines to two furnaces, fireplace, cooktop. and tankless water heater. 1,100.00

Install vent to kitchen hood and terminate. 300.00

Install Aprilaire 800 steam humidifier to main level system. Estimate includes Humidistat control and drain system.
Warranty - Five years all parts, One year labor. 1,350.00

Install Aprilaire Dehumidifier for basement area. No ducts needed. Includes condensation drain. 1,850.00

$26,450.00

********According to his quote:
1- Do I need this big system (it is $7000 more than the first one)?

2- I have hardwood floor and near by the lake not on the lake. Do I really need humidifier for main floor as he says?

Thank You so much for your help !

This post was edited by houses14 on Wed, Jun 4, 14 at 6:53

I'm sort of stunned by any new construction requiring basically 1-ton per 625ft. even with 9ft ceilings. I mean even average constructions from twenty years ago would require something in the order of 2 2-ton units.

Even the heat gain/loss he's suggesting seems off by like 10-20k btu. Unless I'm completely missing something in a mass of so many words. Quite frankly, there's a difference between working hard and working smart.

And int he very least, I would ask him to up has labor to two years. That's a heck of a lot to go wrong in such a huge install.

This post was edited by bsmith on Wed, Jun 4, 14 at 4:23

This is a little difficult to read, but I think I am able to decipher it.

The usual indoor winter and summer design temperatures are 72 and 75 degrees respectively. Your contractor used 70 and 72 degrees. Are these the indoor temperatures you will use? If not ask him to change them and recalculate. Both the heating and cooling loads will go down. It could mean smaller equipment.

What are the sizes of the first and second floors? Where will the two furnaces be located?

I would not expect a house in NC would need a humidifier. Especially one with tight construction. The humidifier could be added at a later date if it is needed.

I would not oversize the furnaces in order to achieve a one point gain in SEER rating. The savings in electricity are very minimal. I am surprised he would suggest this. I would want to see the AHRI matches with 60K BTU 95% variable speeds furnaces. There should be a few combinations that will achieve a 15 SEER rating.

First floor: 2048SF
Second: 2341SF (included finished bonus room 668SF)

My indoor temperatures upstair are normally at 75-78 in summer, 76-79 downstair, and 75-76 upstair in winter while 73-77 downstair.

I think the downstairs AC is oversized. A 2.5 ton condenser should be fine unless you have a lot of south facing glass.

The upstairs AC is probably about right at 3.5 tons. I don't see any attic insulation values. Perhaps an R49 value may get you down to 3 tons. Adjusting the indoor design temperature to 75 degrees may also do it.

I think you stated earlier that one furnace is planned to be installed in the attic. It were my house I would want both furnaces in the basement. The attic is the worst place for HVAC equipment. If you are forced to install in the attic make sure heat tape is used to protect against condensate from freezing. It is probably not a big issue in NC, but last winter's polar vortex caused a lot of problems.

76f in winter is fairly high. 68f-70f would be more like it.

A humidifier might be useful with those relatively high temps in winter.

Mike,

What is the difference in cost to have both furnaces in basement?

Should I go with the first system at $19000 or this upgrade $26000?

Weemeister,
At night, downstair is set 65. 70-72 is normal unless the children home then it would be 74-76

We cook lots of soup during winter which could serve 20 people at the time. That would add moisture to the air without the aid of humidifier, I think.

If I were you, personally (if possible) I would get way more quotes from honest and reputable contractors before getting anything in writing. It would be as rash as marrying the very first girl you see. :)

Additionaly, you can only get so much reliable sight-unseen forum advice. A contractor in your area will have more general/practical knowledge regarding local conditions and building requirements.

Just from the little I read of your messages and briefly researched regarding your particular region, I think you are being sold way more than actually needed.

In fact get someone to discuss insulation with you. That's where I would place the remainder of this potentially overspent money. It will provide way more bang-for-the-buck and comfortablity than an overchilled/heated house ever could.

If both furnaces are installed in the basement, more rigid duct work would have to be installed, but the lineset and the wiring would shorter. I don't think there would be much difference in materials. There would be more labor. It takes more work to run the duct work up from the basement versus running flexible ducts in the attic. I have no way of estimating this. I would think an extra 2-3 days of labor should do it, but I could be way off. The plans would have to modified.

You second quote for the HVAC equipment is $21,850, not $26,000. I like the second quote with the 2-stage furnaces. Remember this quote is for over sized furnaces and condensers.

I don't understand why there is a separate quote for gas lines. Is this considered an option? I am not convinced you need a humidifier. You can always get a stand alone dehumidifier later if you need it. The kitchen hood is good if you like to cook.

Mike,
""I don't understand why there is a separate quote for gas lines. Is this considered an option?""

No, it is not an option. I think that is the way they try to get more money from me.

Bsmith,

He is from the GC whom I am going to use to build my home. No choice.

Tiger,

""The GC certainly has house plans and there is always more than one set. This definitely could be shared with HVAC dealer for the Man J load calc. No excuse not getting a prompt Man J performed, completed, and in writing on the software's letterhead.
TD""

GC keeps saying all his guys are honest. No argument from me.

I could see only grading guy is but the GC changed his quote almost double manually by hand written not even typed (no letter head). I knew the guy's price before talked to this GC. Although, I have no question for that because if he wants he will get it anyway somehow somewhere while building my home.

I need more opinions for HVAC, which could be address to GC before signing contract. He was rushing me.

You placed yourself in a situation where he's got you by the balls, practically in a vise. :) I would never place that much blind faith in anyone. Even if he's off by 5% here, 10% there it can be huge. More opinions from people who actually have seen the current build are going to be the most relevant. More opinions are a good thing and I wouldn't be shy about getting them for such a project. In fact, I would let him *know* that I am getting more opinions, light a fire underneath his posterior and he won't take you for granted.

Bsmith,

Talked to the home owners he built, they liked him because quality. They built all nice houses and were not care much about money. He got away with those. Told him up front that my budget is limited. Therefore, I need to know all costs to be prepared. It seems irritate him