You will be furnishing the new HVAC, necessary supplies,tools, instruments, refrigerant, new pad, misc as described? An old system will have to be removed and refrigerant evacuated properly?

If so, figure one day one person. Person should be HVAC qualified and licensed with all certifications. Site work should be evaluated prior to install. Figure the prevailing HVAC labor rate for your location for a lead HVAC installer.

I assume you are attempting to have this work performed on the side so to speak without going through a dealer. Not really something I would recommend. Maybe a Saturday job. Make certain you understand how this might affect warranty and the risk you might be assuming.

Good Luck...

I am supplying equipment purchased online per his specs. He is HVAC certified and licensed but independent. I am unable to ascertain the prevailing labor rate for my location which is why I am posting. The supposedly top-rated companies I got quotes from do not break out equipment and labor and seem exorbitant ($6k for low-end Amana). This gentleman is quoting a $1000 flat rate which frankly also seems high for something he states is a simple straight install and can do by himself. I can't afford the big name equipment through dealers (Carrier, Trane...). It's just not an option. It seems like this industry is just one big shell game. Thanks for your help!

jmwhite:

I'm not going to try to talk you out of your decision. I am going to point out a couple of things:

1. You likely will have no warranty on the equipment that's purchased online. Please confirm that before you decide.

2.You will have little-to-no recourse with this installer if things don't work out well.

My neighbor went this route and it didn't go well for him.. could be that the installer didn't size the system properly, or that the existing furnace / ductwork wasn't up to the task, or that it was a bad install job... I don't know.

I'm guessing that you are looking for labor rates to try to negotiate the $1000 fee. The thing is he's presumably paying his own taxes, insurance, overhead, truck and tools. I'm not taking a position on the amount of his fee, only that you have to understand what goes into it.

I will assume the person who quoted you 1K is a one person shop who has a small business to operate.

I would think if you could locate a lead installer who works for a fully staffed dealer and who would be willing to do work on a Saturday turnkey and include everything that I discussed, then 750 seems a fair price to everyone.

Keep in mind, you usually get what you pay for.

For $250 difference, I don't think I would quibble. I know Birmingham quite well and would want reliable AC ASAP.

Of course most HVAC purchased on Internet is junk, sorry but that's true.

IMO

Haven't made a decision. Still investigating. All equipment sites so far say full manufacturer's warranty. Not looking at anything secondhand -- only new. Hadn't planned to negotiate labor rate. Just want to know what's fair. If this isn't then I'll find someone who is. This guy's been around for a while; came through a personal recommended. I'd anticipate a lot more trouble getting service or satisfaction from big companies after the fact than an independent who relies on word-of-mouth for his business. At least that's been my experience with other contractors. Can't tell you how many times I've heard the words "oh he (the salesman that quoted your job) is no longer with the company" effectively voiding every single thing he promised just to make the sale. In all fairness, however, the most devastating ripoff I've experienced came from a personal recommendation similar to this one so I'm leery of them too. Like I said it just feels like a great big (unwinnable) game to me. I don't want to play. Whatever happened to decency and fairness? Thanks.

If you trust his skills,which I suppose you do or you wouldn't be hireing him,I believe his price is more than reasonable. As far as knowing prevailing local labor rate,it's no wonder. The way you ask questions leaves a lot to be desired. I would pick up the phone and ask "what is your hourly rate and minium time?" Asking contractors (and people on the net) how much to install equiment they never saw in a house they know nothing about is a stretch,don't you think?

Thanks guys. From reading through forum it looked to me like equipment wasn't so much of an issue as installation. That is, I should pay as much attention to who's doing the work as what "brand" I am buying. Believe me I would love to find someone to do this job FOR me (it is not fun) and at a fair price; I just haven't found him yet so was exploring this as an option. [Note: I showed this installer the online equipment quotes; he said they were cheaper than what he could get locally with contractor discount. That's essentially how this all started.] Thank you for engaging me in discussion and not writing me off as an idiot (like all the salesmen I've dealt with have).

If you buy equipment on line make sure you read the warranty coverage carefully. If there is a problem the manufacturer will only deal with the HVAC installer and not you.

What's unclear about how I phrased the question? Already told you the companies I've gotten quotes from won't reveal that information. They literally WILL NOT TELL YOU what their hourly rate is or what they will charge for a job unless you meet with their salespeople and bend over for a smoke-filled enema. Dealt with enough condescending jerks in the course of this thing. Don't need any more thanks.

Thank you Mike. Excellent advice.

There are a couple of issues:

1. tigerdunes, If I was an HVAC business owner and discovered one of my employees was moonlighting jobs I would fire him on the spot. It would not be acceptable for an employee to compete with his employer and underbid work like that.

2. It's necessarily not about decency or trust or anything like that. The issue is often, "does someone have the financial ability to assume the risk of something going wrong?" If an installer isn't making any markup on the equipment then clearly he has no ability to assume financial responsibility for warranty repairs. (if a part fails, you don't expect him to troubleshoot or repair it for free do you?) Ditto with labor... if you get him down to some minimum labor rate he can't afford to warranty his work. (let's say the AC unit has lost its charge in 6 months due to a leak- perhaps was his fault or not) Do you expect him to eat the materials and labor to fix that?

In addition, people who go this route often don't want to pay for upgrades to the furnace / ductwork to work with the AC or do a load calculation etc. There's a reason that these kinds of installs often don't end well.

This post was edited by jakethewonderdog on Mon, May 12, 14 at 14:53

I hear you Jake. Fact is there's risk no matter who - or what - you go with. It's a crap shoot. Who do you believe? One company tells me "oh your duct work is terrible - so is your furnace - it all needs to be replaced." Two others tell me "your ductwork and furnace look great." I'm not looking to negotiate anything down or do anything on the sly. I just know for a fact (or rather, choose to believe the two that say) all I need is a new A/C. I wish installers did quotes instead of salesmen. That's why at least I feel better about the independent guy because HE is the one that will be doing the work. Appreciate all your input guys! It's brutal out there.

Back to Jake,

I don't disagree with your statement directed to me. Right or wrong, you and I know this is done all the time. Some dealers would take your side, others wouldn't care.

At the end of the day, you have to have a measure of trust and you get what you pay for. Many less expensive shortcuts can quickly become more expensive in the long run.

TD

TD:

I don't know that it goes on all the time. In fact, I question why any lead tech would jeopardize his good job to do something like that. Do I trust someone who would undermine his employer like that? not really.

I have to admit, I've had much better luck than the OP. I just had a new 95% furnace and AC unit installed last year. Salesman was low on the BS factor and the installers did a professional job. The price was very reasonable and warranty seems unbeatable (10 years parts and labor).

They sized the unit properly (did a quick Manual J) and
I watched as they adjusted the charge using sub-cool method.

Two guys were in and out in 6 hours and cost me $4,700 and I got a rebate on the A/C unit and the furnace (with the rebate, the higher SEER unit was same as lower SEER unit). What's not to like about all that? And I have someone who will stand behind the entire thing without pointing fingers.

Care to say what brand you purchased? I would say you got a great deal as long as it wasn't Goodman.

In my location, side jobs are done all the time,with or without dealer owner's knowledge. Good dealers will pay their quality techs/installers a living wage where they wouldn't be forced or tempted to work on the side. Still it goes on quite a bit. But the risk to the homeowner is definitely something to consider.

TD

No, wasn't Goodman - was Trane.

I'm familiar with Goodman - word is that they have improved their quality recently... but I couldn't consider them.

Jake would you mind sharing more info on your system (size, type, where you are located)? If you're anywhere near me at all I want to check out your guys. A coworker of mine recently got a Trane A/C unit and furnace and was quoted $7800. They negotiated that down to $6000 and considered themselves to have gotten a deal. Again I am getting quoted $6000 for just a 13-seer run of the mill A/C unit from the big companies. I would like to know how what you achieved is possible and how I can get it. Thanks - jm

I bought a new A/C and gas furnace together through the evil nasty Internet, installed everything myself, including opening up the roof (doing a reroof, rewire, reinsulate at the same time), running lines, removing the 40 year old stuff, drywall work, sheet metal matching, applied impact engineering, and so on. Then I got a brick and mortar A/C company I had a history with to come out and finish up. It was about a thousand. It was a bargain.

Still friends with the A/C company.

Take a look at prices at theACoutlet.com. $1000 isn't bad for a quality install by a licensed HVAC contractor. Ask him about his labor warranty (should be 1 year). You should get the full Goodman Warranty if he is licensed (and there's nothing wrong with Amana/Goodman equipment).

This post was edited by sktn77a on Wed, May 14, 14 at 18:18

Thanks sktn! ACoutlet is one of the sources I'm considering. I think $1000 is a little high but he is licensed. I am hearing the same thing (nothing wrong with Goodman or Amana - it's all in the install). I still want to know how Jake got such a phenomenal deal. 10-year equipment labor appears standard but I haven't found ANYONE offering a 10-year labor warranty. Max is 2 and costs extra (have to purchase service contract). If I could get a Trane furnace AND a/c for what Jake paid I would do it in a heartbeat. Brand not so important to me but might be to new owners. On warranty issue (buying equipment online) Goodman site DOES say direct to consumer voids equipment warranty so that is a concern. Getting another licensed independent out tomorrow morning for estimate. We'll see what he says. Thanks so much everyone!

The Goodman internet warranty situation is a bit open to interpretation - it says warranty does not apply if equipment was bought on the internet "unless the unit is installed by a dealer adhering to all applicable federal, state, and local codes, policies and licensing requirements." My interpretation of that is a licensed HVAC contractor who pulls a permit/inspection for the job.

jmwhite

See: Replacing stolen condenser in Chicago post on here... he has bid for 3 ton Lennox for $3335 and 12 year ports and labor.