You have to compare the ratio of the current (amps) the 70 pint is rated versus the 50 pint to determine which is energy more efficient. You want the highest pints per ampere of current. This assumes the ratings of each is accurate.

What is the current humidity and temperature of the basement and does it feel comfortable?

It feels comfortable. I set the sucker on HI last night and bumped it down to 55% from 60%. I went down this morning and its flashing 55% and every now and then 60%.

My various stats say anywhere from 50% to 55%...however the one that supposedy was calibrated with the cigar/salt/bag thing, if accurate indicates an adjusted RH of 58%. I'll go with that number.

Note the RH seams to vary up to 5% throughout the basement...Ex, placing the stat in the area under the one ac duct I have currently installed reads 50%.

I think the dehumiifer is working but the compressor is running continuously. I am leaving it go till I get home from work and will recheck....if the compressor s not cycling on and off then I would think I should go to the 70 pint unt...no?

Also, I calibrated a second stat with the bag/salt method. It is off by 2%....pretty much the same as the other stat. The weird thing is that when you put them side by side, you would think that they should read about the same since they were both off by 2/3%. I am tetsing that but could have swore they differed by 8%!

BTW, the unit is in the closet with the HVAC with door open. It was suggested I get a return installed in there as well.

So, if I get home and the compressor is not cycling on/off but rather running continuously OR if it cycles for a short time on (5 minutes) then off (5 minutes) like it was when set at 65%...should I get the 70 pint unit?

It sounds like the 50 pint is running at maximum capacity. You should be able to bring down the humidity a few more percentage points and it may actually cycle on and off.

These cheap units are frustrating. There is an opportunity for a company to sell a quality unit in the $400 - $600 range, but no one seems to want to pursue it.

It could take some days for a dehumidifier that has near the capacity to reach your desired steady-state humidity to get it down to that level from where you started. If it were my basement, I'd give it a week or more. Look at it like a pump removing water from a hole. You have water running into the hole and the pump removing it. Is the rate of water removal just a little faster than the water running in? If so, the water level (humidity) will go down very slowly. You can go out and buy a bigger pump and see results faster, but later, you will get a lot of cycling of the pump. All other things being equal (steady-state running efficiency), the smaller pump will cost less to run.

A fan or fans to circulate the air throughout the basement might well increase the efficiency of the dehumidifier unless it is already in the most damp part of the basement. I am concerned that you seem to have it located in a "closet". That might cause poor circulation and polarize the humidity levels in the basement.

"You have to compare the ratio of the current (amps) the 70 pint is rated versus the 50 pint to determine which is energy more efficient. You want the highest pints per ampere of current. This assumes the ratings of each is accurate."

Already done by our friends at the EPA in their Energy Star program. Why reinvent the wheel?

There is lots of other information there as well including some of the advice given in this thread and whether the fan operates continuously.

Ion,
The unit drains into the floor...no pump. I'll leave the sucker run f or a few days but if the compressor runs continuously then I'd suspect c a bigger unit is called for.

Would it be normal to for the compressor to cycle on /off every 5 minutes? It was doing that when set at a higher humidity level.

There used to be yellow Energy star tags on these thing...not anymore...I'll go thru the literature to try to find the pints per amp.

My first concern is can it get the humidity down.

My second is whether I am working the mchine to death and should get the 70 pint machine.

My third becomes the gray area of efficiency.

Ideally I'd like to see whichever unit get the humidity down and ideally, perhaps just run each night on a timer.

Mike,
You may be right....but I may need to bump it down more..maybe to 50% which may overload the sucker...again...the 50% reading could really be 55 or 60%..who knows....I figure I need to be confident the basement is no more than 55% to be safe....but that may equate to 50% or 45% on the dehumidifer....I'll know better know that I have two humiditstats that can sort of trust!

The pump example was an analogy meant to illustrate proper sizing of equipment.

Energy Star has a web site with liters per Watt or something similar.

Cycling on and off every 5 minutes would indicate over sized equipment to me.

If you want to get the humidity down fast, run both of your current dehumidifiers and then shut one off and see if the remaining one cycles.

Don't worry about working a machine like this to death by running it continuously. A lot of on and off will likely wear it out faster. Think of running your car on the interstate vs. stop and go, what is tougher on it?

There is equipment that is not built for continuous service. I can not think of many meant for consumer use that does not have built-in protection, but maybe blenders and garage door openers are examples. There is a thermal fuse in the fan motor in my dehumidifier, non resettable. The compressor may have a self-resetting thermal fuse, some motors do. A burned-out cheap blender is not a tragedy. No one but a bored, unsupervised kid would run a garage door opener up and down until smoke came out.

"Already done by our friends at the EPA in their Energy Star program. Why reinvent the wheel?"

How does a consumer determine between two humidifiers which are both labeled Energy Star compliant as being the one which is more energy efficient?

"How does a consumer determine between two humidifiers which are both labeled Energy Star compliant as being the one which is more energy efficient?"

The consumer looks at the column labeled, l/kWh. They range from 1.85 (nearly all of them = 1.85) to 3 or nearly 3. The more efficient ones are all Therma-Stor products (Santa Fe, Honeywell, and Ultra-Aire).

ok, looked at Energy Star site, found a spreadsheet...cool. Both the GE 50 I have and Frigidaire 70 I was considering upgrading to are rated 1.85. How does that tell me which is more efficient?

Further, it states that the GE does indeed have a continuous fan. The Frigidaire does not. I like the sound (or lack there of) of that better!

Again...how is the Frigidaire going to cost me more?

"You have to compare the ratio of the current (amps)..."

Amps are NOT power.

Power = amps * volts * 'power factor'.

The nasty little 'power factor' can be very different among electric motors.

And even varies with the load on the motor.

where the heck do I find that?

This srticle appears to indicate the 70 pint might be a better fit for me....

http://www.best-dehumidifier-choice.com/50-pint-dehumidifier.html

andrelaplume2, You asked if it would be beneficial to buy a more efficient dehumidifier (Santa Fe). After you experiment a little with your current units, you should know how much capacity you need. Add to that the prices of the efficient (ca. 3 l/kWh)and the price of the less efficient units (ca. 1.85 l/kWh) and your electricity costs, and you can calculate what it will cost you to dehumidify your basement with the different units. There will be some assumptions, most difficult are the reliability of the equipment.

Have you considered a heat pump water heater in your basement?

Ion,
I was going to ask the hvac about a heat pump water heater! I hear they somehow help with the humidity and supply some free (so to speak) heat in the winter.

So far as the Santa Fe...likely more efficient but where I am now is determing if the 50 pint unit is cutting it and if having the noise of the fan on all the time outweighs the added monthly cost of a 70 pint unit that does not have a continuously running fan.

From the articles I have read the 70 pint may not cost more and may be quieter long term. However, you are correct in that I need to give the 50 pint unit several days to stablize the house.

...and I appoligize for being a little thick with the math. I figure a 70 pint unit must draw more current and cost more to run but may run less. I still don't know how to calculate the monthly cost. At some point the house will stabilize and I guess I will know how long the compressor runs, how much water is removed and perhaps then I can figure what my cost is....I think my electric rate in 10cents or so...if you care to site an example...I am a good student!

I agree the Santa Fe is almost twice as efficient.

"Amps are NOT power.

Power = amps * volts * 'power factor'.

The nasty little 'power factor' can be very different among electric motors.

And even varies with the load on the motor."

Your statements are correct, but when comparing two humidifiers they would be using the same voltage. I would also assume the power factors would be very similar. Therefore if you cancel voltage and power factor for each humidifier you can use the current in order to make the comparison easy.

To calculate the cost for a given humidifier:

Cost = Power (kW) * time (hours) * elec. rate ($/kWh)

You can assume the power factor will be very close to 1.

"I was going to ask the hvac about a heat pump water heater! I hear they somehow help with the humidity and supply some free (so to speak) heat in the winter."

I have a heat pump hot water heater in my basement. Like your dehumidifier, the heat pump hot water heater is simply an A/C unit sitting in your basement.

In the case of the heat pump hot water heater the air in the space is cooled and the heat is put into the water in the tank. In the case of your dehumidifier, the air in the space is cooled and the heat is dumped back into the room,

Both devices have, as a byproduct, condensation that you need to dispose of.

Contrary to your statement, the heat pump hot water heater does not provide you heat, free or otherwise, in the winter. It cools, winter and summer.

I absolutely love my heat pump hot water heater because of the electric saving my wife and I accrue due to being able to operate it in heat pump mode only and supply our needs. We save about $45-$50 per MONTH! That said, the humidification of the basement air is minimal... maybe a couple of pints a day. Also, the cooling of our basement has had no measurable effect on room temperature. And it is noisy!

A heat pump water heater is going to work best in a place that is hot or humid all of the time. I don't know about your basement temp.

Example of costs with made-up numbers for ten years of operation follow. Plug in your own costs for dehumidifiers liters/day and electricity. I assume that the higher quality dehumidifier will last twice as long.

Low cost dehumidifier $300 each x 2 = $600

20 l (~ 40 pints) /day
divided by
1.85 l/kWh
times
$0.10/kWh
times
3650 days
= $3946 operating cost
plus $600 for the dehumidifiers = $4546

For a more efficient dehumidifier, I will assume the quality is higher and the cost will be for one and the price is $1000.

20 l (~ 40 pints) /day
divided by
3 l/kWh
times
$0.10/kWh
times
3650 days
= $2433 operating cost
plus $1000 for the dehumidifier = $3433

Bummer about my misconception that the heat pump water heater gives off heat. Bummer its noisy too. The monthly savings might pay for my dehumidier though..hahahahah. How does the price compare to a decent regular water heater?

Back to school...so if my 50 pint unit runs 100% of the time it cost me about $40 per month. A 70 pint unit is $56. I'll have to think about this...my hope was neither would need to run at capacity.

I'll let the 50 pint continue to run. It is currently set at 55% and it has started to cycle but the compressor is only ever off for a minute or two. I think I am maxing it out but we will see. My RH ranges from 55% to 58% depending on the part of the basement you are in. I think I need to bump it down to 50% and see what happens. Note the outside humidity today was low...20%.

I would hope the 70 pint unit would run less.

This post was edited by andrelaplume2 on Tue, Jun 4, 13 at 23:38

1) Bottom of steps, L shaped play area. Room in back corner is work room..bilko door is in there. Area is finsished and insulated. The lone ac vent is currently over the sofa.

This post was edited by andrelaplume2 on Tue, Jun 4, 13 at 23:39

2) Standing at opposite end of ping pong table looking towards back wall: 1 closet - storage, 1 closet - Water heater / water softener and a washer and dryer. To the left is the side of the hvac 'closet' Note two sliders on extreme right...havc is directly in back of them, dehumidifier is in there too.

3) Standing on far left back side of pool table (black cover)...looking past w/d (left) and havc closet (across from w/d) into future 12 x 18 tv room...its framed, XPS'd and awaiting electrical then drywall and insulation.

.

looking into hvac closet across from the w/d where dehumidifier is draining into floor...I have left slider open here...would LOVE to close it...would love for the thing to dehumidify the entire basment from there, would love for it not to have to run 100% and not cost a fortune...I know, I know...to be honest I am not sure the little guy could handle the humidity if I slid the door shut...thoughs its not a tight seal. Its been suggested I add a return to the HVAC unts it self. Air can flow in and out since the sliders are open at the bottom....or so I am told.

This post was edited by andrelaplume2 on Tue, Jun 4, 13 at 23:43

...I set the dehumifier to 50% last night.. the thing is not cycling...yet running continuoulsy. The rh according to stats is 54 - 55%. Its getting close to where it needs to be! Still, humidity out side is LOW the last two days and the unit is running on High...nevertheless it looks a bit more promising that a unit can dehumidify from in the closet...whether I keep the 50 pint or move to the 70 is still up in the air...we will see what the next few days bring. Thanks all for the help!

update....just checked. RF now around 53% in basement with dehumidifier on HI and set on 50%Compressor however has not cycled...runs non stop. I am going to leave it go another day. I am leaning towards upgrading from a 50 to 70 pint unit. Research also shows the calculated cost to run the 50 pint (or any) unit is likely more than what you would think unless your basement starts at 80 degrees F and RH = 60%.

It wouldn't hurt to upgrade to the 70 pint dehumidifier. I say go for it.

I use two dehumidifiers in my unfinished basement. It keeps the humidity level more even over the area without requiring extra fans. No attempts are made to otherwise condition the basement air. The range of temperatures in the basement over the course of a year are 58 to 78.
My newest unit is a Frigidaire 70 pint unit. Much quieter than any previous unit I have owned. Thus far, it has my enthusiastic endorsement.
And probably very soon, other makers will be offering units that work as well, or better, and are also quiet. I moved the noisy older unit to the part of the basement where humidity levels are naturally lower and the unit runs for shorter periods of time.

" I would also assume the power factors would be very similar. "

A very bad assumption.

Bottom line is the 50 pint is lowering the humidity but it seems to run nonstop. I did hear it shut this morningâ¦for 3 minutesâ¦it then kicked back and was still running 20 minutes latter when I had to leave⦠RF in the house was around 54% with the unit set on 50%....I think if I were to bump the sucker down to 45% I might kill it! I am getting the 70 pint unitâ¦hopefully the difference in electricity used will be negligible. Hopefully the Frigidair will completely shut off when not in use, hoepfully its quieter too.

".I think if I were to bump the sucker down to 45% I might kill it! I"

Dead wrong.

" I would also assume the power factors would be very similar. "

"A very bad assumption."

How much variation do you think there could be between 50 and 70 mint models from the same manufacturer?

Have you seen power factors below 0.95 for home appliances with small motors?

I thought the utility meter can only measure real power. If that is true then does it matter if the power factor is less than 1?

This post was edited by mike_home on Thu, Jun 6, 13 at 10:13

Well, I also read the cost per liter thing on the energy star site assumed 80F temp and 60% RH. I read as those numbers fall so does efficiency. Bottom line, this is a case where it is what it is. I need something to dehumidify, preferably that I can place in the closet that cycles on and off where the fan actually shuts off...that fan is noisy. I'd be willing to hook up a timer and let it run over night but t needs to be able to dehumidify in that time.

The 50 pint I have runs non stop for several days now. Ill let it run and monitor it the rest of the week till new unit arrives. However, my guess is the 70 is going to work better for my needs. Hopefully its not going to cost big bucks *more* to run.

I'll let you all know....

Here is something to use to satisfy your curiosity about energy usage. It gets very good reviews, but I have no idea about its accuracy. It is probably close enough to give you a good estimate on energy costs.

Here is a link that might be useful: P3 International P4460 Kill A Watt EZ Electricity Usage Monitor

Use of a larger dehumidifier so you can turn it off when you are in the area and run it while you are away is a good strategy. If I was to do that, a model with the "pause" feature would be a good idea. You can do something functionally similar by putting a timer on it with no stop pins and a bunch of extra start pins. If you use the timer to turn it off when you are in the basement and forget to turn it on, the next start pin will do the job.

I have some Intermatic Tn311. It is hard to find timers with removable pins in stores and harder to find the spare pins, but they are readily available via internet purchase. I use them to start things up and leave them running to manually turn them off, or to manually start them for a period and then leave them off (battery chargers).

When it is cool in your basement, the dehumidifier might work better if it is raised off the floor putting it as high as you practically and safely can.

I understand that it used to be that some refrigeration equipment had to shut off periodically so oil could return to the compressor. This may have been, however, only for ultra-low temp equipment.

The earlier comment about a heat pump water heater in your basement leads me to comment about the effect on relative humidity in that basement. While such a water heater does not directly add or subtract any moisture to the basement, it does lower the air temperature as it moves (pumps) the heat from the air into the water. As the air is thus cooled, the relative humidity in the basement is raised.

"While such a water heater does not directly add or subtract any moisture to the basement, it does lower the air temperature as it moves (pumps) the heat from the air into the water. As the air is thus cooled, the relative humidity in the basement is raised."

Simply not correct. As the heat pump runs it removes air from its surroundings just as does an A/C unit. While it is running, the condensate runs out of a tube or tubes and into a drain or, as in my case, a condensate pump.

Let's say that is no hot water usage for a week. And let's start with a full tank of hot water. As heat leaves the tank and goes off into the surroundings, the water will cool. When it cools, the thermostat will call for heating (the water) and an amount of heat will be removed from the surroundings and put back into the water. How much heat? EXACTLY the SAME amount as left the water earlier. No overall effect on surrounding (or water) temperature.

Now run a hot water tap in the kitchen. The amount of heat removed via the water flowing upstairs less the small amount of heat coming into the room from the street main must be replaced by the heat pump removing heat from the surroundings and put into the water tank.

I can not discern ANY MEASURABLE amount of temperature change in my basement either during the summer or during the winter.

The heat pump is quite a small device. The amount of water removed from my basement with my GE unit with two of us using it is maybe two pints a day. The unit has no measurable effect on basement temp. It's a little noisey, but it saves us like $40+ a month in electrical use.

Mine has paid for itself in under two years with rebates, tax credits, reduced electrical usage, and no sales tax on the purchase. And the savings go on. (I do not have NG available so don't attack. lol)

Well, the Frigidaire arrived. First, it is waaaaaay quieter than the GE. Second, the drain plug is on the back, aims down and it on the rights side..ie on the side where my drain is. 2 plusses so far. I put it on 45% and the humidity level is dropping where as the GE sort of leveled off.

I put it back to 55%..I want to see if it cycles and how long...now if I could just find some time to spend down there....

...its suppose to be more humid and rain Mon....we'll see what happens....

Update:
The new dehumidifier continues to before more quiet. Set on 60% in the closet area I have seen the humidity level fall to 55% in the area by the sucker but closer to 60% or so in the other area around the corner. It even shut off. I bumped it to 55% but it does not seem to cycleâ¦.Booo! We did just have 2â of rain or so..but temp have been cool as wellâ¦not sure if that makes things worse for a period of time. I hope I will I will not need to bring it out into living space. If it appears to run continuously at this setting, I may try a 12 hour on 12 hour off and see what happens. IâÂÂd hate to run my bill up $50 a month! Also, I am still looking into having a return put in down there.

Set it to the humidity level you desire and then leave it alone for a few days. See how that works.

Yea, its been a few though...however we are getting anothe deluge of rain again...very odd weather lately.

12 on and 12 off is probably a little long for maximum efficiency. You want reasonably long run times rather than a lot of switching off and on, but if you have to over dry by a lot to keep to the average level where you want it, you loose efficiency too. That is because it costs more to maintain a lower humidity. The dehumidifier gets less efficient as it runs in drier conditions.

There is a sweet spot somewhere on a curve on axes of run time vs kWh for your chosen average humidity. I can't really say where that is, but I expect it is shorter than 12 h.

Of course, continuous running of right-sized equipment is going to be the most cost-effective given that there are no other variables.

the hvac guy comes out Tues..we will see what he says about adding some duct, a return and the heat pump water heater.

So you are saying it might be most cost effective to let the sucker run continuously for say 8 hours...long enough to get the humidity down, then let it sit off for 16 or so hours.....

In this scenario, its assumed the unit can get the humidity down in that time period (which so far is questionable, set at 50% I have not heard it shut off but readings of rh are close to that) and the hope the humidity does not rapidly climb back so the rooms are sitting at 70% for hours on end...? I can try this...do you know if humidity build more during the day or night....prefer to run it at night when no one is down there to hear it....

Well I moved the sucker out of the closet area...in fact I moved it away from the unifinshed 12 x 18 area to around the corner to the 24 x 27 finished area. It was set on 50% and the unfinished area was a bit below 50 and the finished area was a bit above...I found that odd but at least it was it should be. However the sucker never cycled off. I bumped it up to 55...it shut off for a few minutes the back on. I returned an hour later and notices the rh in the larger finished area had risen by 3%...that seems like a lot for an hour on a dry day. I am sitting here and it does shut off, for about a minute then back on with compressor running. It runs 10 minutes or so...

Now I am wondering what could be contributing the humidity. The area is finiished but there is no flooring yet. All walls have 1.5" XPS and fg insulation and are drywalled? There is one ac duct. The is an open floor drain...what could cause a rise? Is this abnormal?

HVAC guy comes Tuesday.

btw way it was filling every 8 hours or so, so I think its removing about what its suppose...70 pints a day.

You work for the government? They find things that work and mess with them until they are broken.
Until and unless the unit is given some time to demonstrate what it will or will not accomplish at a particular position, one will never know what it can do plus one will be fatigued with all the effort of continually moving the unit.
Think about this: The effluent collected is not being manufactured by the dehumidifier. It is removed from the atmosphere. Let it do the job. Buy additional units for better area coverage. Almost certainly, the effluent collection rate will decline after things have BEEN GIVEN A CHANCE TO STABILIZE.

ok, ok but I have had a dehumidifier running pretty much non stop since May 30th!

When I built my house about 10 years ago, it took two years of almost non-stop dehumidifier running to bring levels down to 50%- and my basement has no water intrusion. Later the running of the dehumidifier increased because the unit was failing-- it ran but did almost nothing. Now the running is just a few minutes per day-- but other situations may be very different. Some basements may require full-time running. Remember that if the collection bucket is full, the unit is not running and is doing nothing.

HVAC Guy out

1) Said he'd charge me to put as many duct in as I'd like but in reality it would not make the basement any warmer...said better of spending $$$ on a small radiator or two,

2) Said I could pop a small return in,,,likely would not make a big difference either in so far as humidity or heat..

3) said the hybrid water heater would run about $2200 (we did not get into specifics) Said it might help more than anything else with humidity and could lower usuage by 60%.

4) Dehumidifier still on 55%, continuous, room say around there...emptying 3X a day....I'll leave it go for now. Suppose to be getting another 2" of rain!

I know from a bit of research that your world is not really that of technology-- and that is OK. But since one unit at your premises is not lowering the relative humidity level to 50%, it is axiomatic (at least that is the word I would use if I was an educated person) that more capacity is needed-- at least for the time being. Do you disagree with that? If so, why? If you do agree, why then are you continuing to expect just one unit to do the job within a few hours? Units in multiple locations give better coverage-- my basement has two.
It is my belief that controls placed away from the units offer more accurate readings, other things being equal. To that end, I use wall mounted Honeywell humidistats set at 50% which control single receptacles with the dehumidifiers plugged into the special .receptacle. And I trust the Honeywell controls. I set the dehumidifier to the lowest possible setting. When the wall control is "satisfied", all power to the dehumidifier is interrupted and the fan does not run continuously.
By no means am I recommending that you personally undertake to do such an (electrical) installation. But I do believe that my approach is technologically sound and practical.

I like your idea. I do agree two units are likely necessary. Still some advise here says let one run a while and let things settle out.

I decided to just ignore the sucker this week. I empty it 3x a day. RH on the unit is set at 55% and that's about what stats read...maybe a little less. I have the old unit yet..perhaps I will run 2 but I am just going to leave things be for a while...we had a lot of rain lately.

Interestingly, on a rain free day, with the RH at 53% with the unit running nonstop, If forgot to empty the bucket for an 8 hour period...it rose to 64%....turned it on and 8 hours later it was back at 53%...but not shutting off...not sure why that drives me nits but I am getting past it!

I just stumbled upon this and thought I'd follow up...its always nice to know how things turn out.

Basement was finally completely finished.

The Old 50 pint er died.

I bought a Frigidaire 70 and pulled it from the closet area and put out in the open in front of washer and drained into floor drain.

It had no trouble getting humidity to 50% and cycling on/off - though it never stayed off for long.

After 3 years...the sucker got recalled! Something about fires. Interestingly it seems one company makes these suckers under a dozen different names.

They offered me a $130 credit or replacement. I took the replacement unit - duh? It cost $250 new!

Awaiting delivery...