Please give all details for quote.

Is this a package unit or split system with separate outside condenser with inside furnace and evap coil?

Need specifics.

IMO

It's a split system and my heater and evap coil are in the attic (1 story). I'm assuming that this makes the install more expensive.

And he didn't specify the heater model numbers. Is that something I should have, or is that predefined with a matched system?

Location please...

Is this a straight AC or heat pump system.

Inside unit is not predefined...

Dealer should provide complete model numbers for both outside condenser and inside air handler or furnace with evap coil.

New lineset to be provided? New thermostat to be provided? How about an air filter cabinet?

Post back.

IMO

Location? Besides Texas and in the attic? Let's see: North Austin, outside unit on the west side of the house, but shaded by a 2- story house next door.

Electric A/C, natural gas furnace.

I don't think that he's going to replace my thermostat. We already have a programmable one that's working and he didn't say that he would, so lets assume that he won't.

New air filter cabinet? I know the answer to that is no.

I'm going to show my extreme ultra stupidity and reinforce my need for help: I don't know what a lineset is.

This post was edited by barbja on Sat, Apr 20, 13 at 11:19

So to be clear, are you keeping existing furnace or purchasing new furnace?

I assume quote includes new inside evap coil. If so, provide model number.

You must filter your return air. How is this being accomplished?

The refrigerant lineset without being too technical carries refrigerant in a certain state back and forth between condenser and evap coil. Is it being replaced or does dealer intend to flush and reuse old lineset?

There are some differences between the two models quoted, mainly warranty. Minor differences are efficiency and noise. If you have a conventional non var speed furnace, then you would be just as well off with the XB13.

I will provide a link to Trane AC condensers and you can use the comparison area to see the differences between the two models.

IMO

Here is a link that might be useful: Trane AC Condensers

Ok, I think that he'll be using the same lineset.

I have two returns in the ceiling of a hallway. My filters are there.

I have an estimate for just replacing the outside unit and evap coil with the xb13 for $3500, but my system is 20yo, so I think it's a good idea to replace the whole thing now. The estimates in my OP were for both the a/c and the furnace.

Would it be worth it to entertain an xr13 to get the extra warranty over the xb13 (and whatever minor differences it has)?

This post was edited by barbja on Sat, Apr 20, 13 at 15:00

The XR13 is a nicer condenser than the XB series, and comes with 10/10/10 warranty, compressor, coil, and parts.

What model furnace has been quoted? If not a var speed model, I would at least want the XT series furnace.

Post back.

IMO

I just sent him an email asking for more specifics on the furnaces in the mystery quotes. I'll post when I hear back.

Thanks!

For the XB13 13.0 SEER system the furnace is TUD1B080A948. It looks like this is an XR80.
For the XB14 16.0 SEER system the furnace is TUD1C080A9H41. XT80 for this one.

I've been reading some good things about the XV80. Do you know if the unit cost for this one is significantly higher than the other two?

Perhaps an XR13 with an XV80 would be a good choice? I feel like I'm going to the doctor with my own diagnosis.

So you are clear, the XT80 furnace is much nicer than the XR80 furnace.

The XR series condenser is a much nicer condenser than the XB series.

The XV80 is an 80% two stage var speed furnace. It would require a true two stage thermostat for best operation. Don't ignore comment about the thermostat which will allow furnace staging based on demand rather than running on high stage whether needed or not. I like HW VP IAQ stat which also gives you dehumidify on demand in AC cooling mode.

The XT80 is also an 80% eff furnace, single stage with high eff blower motor but not var speed.

Ask dealer for pricing on both systems.

IMO

This post was edited by tigerdunes on Mon, Apr 22, 13 at 9:53

> Ask dealer for pricing on both systems

The XR80/XT80 and XR80/XV80?

No.

XR condenser with XT80 furnace including all model numbers and Trane evap coil.

XR condenser with XV80 furnace including all model numbers and Trane evap coil.

IMO

Sorry, I meant XR13, not XR80 for my first numbers there. I had 80s on my brain.

No problem, you are on the right track.

IMO

A dealer gives you a quote. He says use THIS system/parts. For 5100$. Why would/should we say uh-uh. Use THAT system for $800 more? Why did dealer offer to sell you 1 system when he has 14 other combos available?

For above poster

A very easy question to answer.

Most dealers qualify homeowners to their needs both system and what they think they can afford without ever asking them or listening to them about what they really want.

IMO

Here we go, everything is 4ton:

XB13/XR80: 5100
XR13/XT80: 6050
XR13/XV80: 6570
XB14/XT80: 6500
XB14/XV80: 7250

And he is planning on replacing the thermostat. XL600 if installing the XT/XR furnaces, XL602 with XV. Would one with a built-in humidistat be helpful with the XV?

Tiger dunes, you had mentioned Honeywell thermostats. Are those better than the Trane ones?

IIRC, the trane units are made by Honeywell.

I thought they were looking pretty similar.

Tigerdunes recommended a HW VP IAQ. I have a scale up and a scale down question for that:

If I'm not planning on adding any 'extra' equipment like a humidifier, would a VP 8321 be good enough (ie, give me the dehumidification control I want out of that XV80)

Alternatively, if I want to get my geek on and I want to be able to check stuff out/control it with my ipad, what's the next step up? I can't tell which prestige unit has the right amount of function. Although the Prestige IAQ would allow me to discard the (doesn't always work right) remote temp/humidity sensors I use now. Awesome.

But I'm leery of a thermostat that is so complicated on its face. More stuff to not work. I'd prefer limited control on the panel (like a cheap one) with a well developed app interface. Kinda like the TiVos that have no buttons. Perhaps I could control my thermostat through my tivo. It's a thought.

Barbja

I would like to know the evap coil mdl number to double check compatibility and system matching.

I would discard the XR furnace quote.

Either the XT or XV furnace. Either the XB14 or XR AC condenser. Your choice.

On the XV furnace, I would want a true two stage thermostat that also has dehumidify on demand feature. Like Honeywell Vision Pro IAQ.

On the XT furnace, thermostat Honeywell Mdl 8321 that has overcooling feature for humidity control.

Just so you know, I prefer a whole house pleated filter media cabinet installed on return end of new furnace over 1" filters installed in ceiling. Filter in these cabinets are easily installed and last up to one year.

IMO

This post was edited by tigerdunes on Wed, Apr 24, 13 at 10:32

Another guy came out to do an workup today. He is recommending a 5ton XR15 to get the two step a/c (he said 2 stage, but it only has one compressor..that's two step, right?), the XV80, an XL830 or above, and a media filter or a cleaneffects.

He did a pretty good sell on the XR15. He did a duct analysis and found that my airflow requirements are almost 1800 cfm. He's going to fix some of that with dampers to adapt. I already knew my ducting wasn't ideal.

Does the 2-step really have any advantages over a regular single stage? Or do you have to go up to a real 2 stage (xb16) to see a benefit?

To get a Trane rebate that is going on now, you have to use a Trane thermostat. The XL380 is a 2 stage with humidity control. I have my fiscally irresponsible eye on that XL950.

I'm leaning towards a media filter. The CleanEffects sounds cool, but it also sounds like another thing to break and to clean.

I expect an email with his quote to show up tomorrow. It should have model numbers. I'll post when I get it.

Thanks!

Here we go:

Condenser 4TTR5061E1000A (âÂÂXR15âÂÂ)
âÂÂEvaporator Coil 4TXCD063BC3HCB
âÂÂâÂÂVSâ Furnace TUD2C100B9V5VB (âÂÂXV80âÂÂ)
Thermostat TCONT803AS32DA (âÂÂXL803âÂÂ)

Total Price - $10,515.00
Media filter: +$415

Yow!

Why in the world would one upsize from a 4 ton to a 5 ton system? Bad, bad idea. No benefit if 5 tons is not what your home requires. 2-stage is absolutely no excuse to oversize equipment and cost you, the homeowner, more in the long run! 2-stage systems work well when sized properly. Oversized? Well, you should have just bought the cheaper, properly-sized single stage 4 ton outdoor unit. I don't understand the way some dealers think. Oversizing is very bad practice

If 5 tons is what you need, then you'd better see a full Manual J load calculation to support that. For 2100 sqft, even in Texas, that sounds absolutely absurd! 4 tons is likely more than enough. Oversizing is not good for comfort, efficiency or reliability. What do you expect out of your new replacement system? I would certainly not move forward yet. Keep looking for the contractor that will SIZE the equipment PROPERLY.

This post was edited by ryanhughes on Thu, Apr 25, 13 at 0:01

Isn't my system undersized now (1600cfm from 4ton vs 1800cfm required air flow)? I'd rather the house be re-ducted to require only 1600cfm.

Differences between furnaces is clear. I just don't get the differences between the a/c's. I get the energy efficiency thing, but, even though I live in 'so many 100+ degree days I can't count them' Texas, my cooling costs don't justify jumping even from an xb13 to an xb14. So, when you take energy efficiency out of the equation, how do you choose?

I want to keep my home cool (or warm) and dry in an unobtrusive manner. And my eyes to not sting. And lose weight. (Ok, perhaps that's one too far)

If by "duct analysis," the dealer simply determined that your ducts were capable of moving 1800 cfm, then that is not thr correct way to size equipment. For a 5 ton system, the ducts should ideally be sized for 2000 cfm.

The dealer needs to do a Manual J load calculation to determine proper equipment size and actual airflow requirement for youe home. If they won't do one, you should keep looking as this is the correct practice for properly sizing equipment. That's where you should start. When you know your home's load requirement, you can accurately compare system options.

This post was edited by ryanhughes on Thu, Apr 25, 13 at 7:48

I did not see any comments as to how the current AC performed. Did the current 4 ton AC when it was working properly keep the house at 75 degrees on the hottest days of the year? If the answer is yes then 4 tons is the proper size.

This post was edited by mike_home on Thu, Apr 25, 13 at 13:03

I find the pricing and sizing absolutely absurd on the latest quote.

We are talking about 2100 sq ft.

Go back to your quotes.

If you want to upgrade, stay with 80 KBTU XV80 and move from the 4 ton XR13 AC condenser to XR15 AC condenser, add the media cabinet and HW VP IAQ thermostat.

3937756 Active Systems XR15 TRANE 4TTR5049E1 4TXCD063BC3 *UD2C080B9V4 46000 13.00 16.00 1 RCU-A-CB 348 Yes

Second choice would be XT80 80 KBTU furnace with 4 ton XB14 AC condenser. Add the media cabinet and HW mdl 8321 thermostat.

3938521 Active Systems XB14 TRANE 4TTB4049E1 4TXCD063BC3 *UD1C080A9H4 47500 13.00 16.00 1 RCU-A-CB 359 Yes

Weigh the choices and prices.

I still would like to know what evap coil dealer has quoted.

IMO

>I still would like to know what evap coil dealer has quoted.

This dealer quoted 4TXCD063BC3HCB evap coil.

When he called this morning I said that I didn't want to go to a 5-ton system. I'd want either a 4ton 2-stage xr16 or the budget option of a xb14. He is going to give me a new quote with those systems.

Tigerdunes, I read in another thread where you said that the Trane XL830 was not a true two stage thermostat (or something to that effect) and the HW VP IAQ is. Is this why the HW IAQ is recommended over the Trane ones?

>Did the current 4 ton AC when it was working properly keep the house at 75 degrees on the hottest days of the year?Hmmm...I don't think I've ever tried that. We run our a/c at 79. I only run it down to 76 or so in the shoulder months (like January :) ) when I want to dehumidify, and that's the temp I have to set it to to do so.

I do feel that it is working pretty hard to keep it at even 79 when it is 105 outside. I thought that anything would work hard when it was 105 outside. Perhaps I'm mistaken.

Here are the new ones. He's still quoting using an XL380 though.

Option 1 - XR16/XV80: $10,170.00

Condenser " 4TTB4049E1000B (âÂÂXB14âÂÂ)
Evaporator Coil " 4TXCD061BC3HCB
âÂÂVSâ Furnace " TUD2C080B9V4VB (âÂÂXV80âÂÂ)
Thermostat " TCONT803AS32DA (âÂÂXL803âÂÂ)

Option 2 - XB14/XV80: $9,268.00

Condenser " 4TTR6048A1000A (âÂÂXR16âÂÂ)
Evaporator Coil " 4TXCD063BC3HCB
âÂÂVSâ Furnace " TUD2C080A9V4VB (âÂÂXV80âÂÂ)
Thermostat " TCONT803AS32DA (âÂÂXL803âÂÂ)

Media filter +$415

Barbja

What happened to those prices you posted previously on 4/23?

Here we go, everything is 4ton:

XB13/XR80: 5100
XR13/XT80: 6050
XR13/XV80: 6570
XB14/XT80: 6500
XB14/XV80: 7250

And he is planning on replacing the thermostat. XL600 if installing the XT/XR furnaces, XL602 with XV. Would one with a built-in humidistat be helpful with the XV?

Tiger dunes, you had mentioned Honeywell thermostats. Are those better than the Trane ones?

IMO

This post was edited by tigerdunes on Fri, Apr 26, 13 at 20:08

The prices on 4/23 were from contractor #1 and the prices from 4/24 and 4/25 are from contractor #2.

Obviously contractor #2 is weighing in on the more expensive side. The first contractor is done hvac work for me and for friends for 20yrs. He's "our a/c guy". He's an independent, so I can see where his prices could be less expensive. I don't think he low-balled.

However, I'm concerned about his lack of exactness on his quote. That is why I got another quote. Also, I think it would be irresponsible for me to spend so much money on this without checking around. Checking around has certainly made me feel much better about his quote.

Talking to both contractors and advice from you guys is really helping me get a good handle on this. If it weren't for you guys, I wouldn't be getting:

1) VS furnace
2) Media filter
3) More awesome thermostat (HW VP IAQ)

Now we need to nail down that condenser and ask contractor #1 to bid it out with exact model numbers.

4 tons -- check

XB14 -or- XR15 -or- XR16

How do I choose??

I found this regarding the XL16i: "It has relatively poor dehumidifing properties and the difference between 1st and 2nd stg is small."

If this also applies to the XR16, that make it out too. That would put us down to two:

XB14 -or- XR15

Ssssso close.

Does this narrow it down? When I was on the phone with C#1, I asked if the XB14 had a scroll compressor. He said that some of the do and some don't. At the time he couldn't look it up because the Trane site was down.

Of the 4ton X*nn, where nn is less than 16, which, if any, uses a scroll compressor?

>Of the 4ton X*nn, where nn is less than 16, which, if any, uses a scroll compressor?All of them.

Not really true about the XL16i when sized and set up properly (about dehumidification). If it were true the same would apply to all manufacturers' dual stage scroll units. With the new Hyperion air handlers the XR16/XL16i with TAM7 perform quite well -- when size/installed properly. A proper installation is key.

The 4 ton models you are considering will have scroll compressors

This post was edited by ryanhughes on Fri, Apr 26, 13 at 15:44

Barbja

Go back to your first dealer.

Go back to your quotes.

If you want to upgrade, stay with 80 KBTU XV80 and move from the 4 ton XR13 AC condenser to XR15 AC condenser, add the media cabinet and HW VP IAQ thermostat.

3937756 Active Systems XR15 TRANE 4TTR5049E1 4TXCD063BC3 *UD2C080B9V4 46000 13.00 16.00 1 RCU-A-CB 348 Yes

Second choice would be XT80 80 KBTU furnace with 4 ton XB14 AC condenser. Add the media cabinet and HW mdl 8321 thermostat.

3938521 Active Systems XB14 TRANE 4TTB4049E1 4TXCD063BC3 *UD1C080A9H4 47500 13.00 16.00 1 RCU-A-CB 359 Yes

Weigh the choices and prices.

I don't think the XL16i is necessary as long as you get the thermostats I listed above.

IMO

I talked to my contractor (C#1) and he says that the 4TXCD063BC3 is about 24x24 and it won't fit through my attic access door. He said that he would need to cut a bigger hole (and mess up my stairs) or, instead of the cased A coil, use a cased horizontal flat coil: 4TXFH063CZ3

Interestingly, if I enter the following values into the AHRI search, I get hits for all the xb14->xl16i. However, they all show 16SEER and $340/yr

furnace=UD2C080B9V4
coil=4TXFH063CZ3
seer=16-18
tax credit=yes
status=active
cooling cap=40000-51000

If I leave the indoor model number blank and let it display both the regular and flat coils, the flat coils show a blazing savings of $8/yr.

Is there anything wrong with using the flat coil, or should I have him just take that keyhole and recip saws to my hall ceiling and put that regular coil in there. I have to replace my stairs anyway because C#2 broke one of the steps.

Edit: I also talked with him about using the HW VP IAQ. He's never installed one of them before. I did my best to explain to him why its better to use that than to 'let the furnace do the thinking'. I may have messed something up in translation.

He prefers to install the Trane thermos when he does a complete trane system because of the 10y warranty that will accompany the thermo. Is the XL850 equivalent enough to the HW VP IAQ? Does it have an outdoor sensor? I really like that option.

This post was edited by barbja on Fri, Apr 26, 13 at 16:39

While I do prefer the cased A coil, I see no problem going to flat coil in your particular situation. As you said, numbers are same. See below.

3937756 Active Systems XR15 TRANE 4TTR5049E1 4TXCD063BC3 *UD2C080B9V4 46000 13.00 16.00 1 RCU-A-CB 348 Yes

3937867 Active Systems XR15 TRANE 4TTR5049E1 4TXFH063CZ3 *UD2C080B9V4 46000 13.00 16.00 1 RCU-A-CB

3938521 Active Systems XB14 TRANE 4TTB4049E1 4TXCD063BC3 *UD1C080A9H4 47500 13.00 16.00 1 RCU-A-CB 359 Yes

3938612 Active Systems XB14 TRANE 4TTB4049E1 4TXFH063CZ3 *UD1C080A9H4 46500 13.00 16.00 1 RCU-A-CB 352 Yes

I would stick with my thermostat recommendation from earlier post depending on furnace selection.

IMO

Hi -- I just got a bid from C#1 for this system:

3937867 Active Systems XR15 TRANE 4TTR5049E1
4TXFH063CZ3 *UD2C080B9V4 46000 13.00 16.00 1 RCU-A-CB

plus Honeywell 4" filter rack and filter
and the Honeywell Prestige2 IAQ thermostat with external temp

All this for $8100. I'm having him do a VP IAQ though because my head is going to explode with decisions.

Anyhow, since he said that the furnace will decide its speed, I don't think that he's installed a VP IAQ with a Trane VS furnace before (and I think he said that he hadn't). What should I suggest he pay close attention to in the installation instructions to make sure that its installed correctly for the IAQ to control the dehumidification with the VS furnace properly? I know that Comfort-R needs to be enabled on the furnace. Or should I just let him go do what he wants and check it myself later? (or my dad; he's quite electronically inclined).

Here's some install instructions that I found:
https://customer.honeywell.com/resources/techlit/TechLitDocuments/68-0000s/68-0287.pdf

Is it a combination of figure 10 and figure 16?

Furnace will not decide the staging, the HW VP Prestige IAQ will based on demand, not the timer at the furnace.

If he hasn't installed this model before, he should seek help from other resources. First he should read the installation instructions. Then see if another tech within his company has installed this thermostat before. If not call his Trane residential resource representative. If no help, call Honeywell. Tech should review this with his manager. Surely someone has familiarity with this high end HW thermostat.

It's important that installer and resources know he will be installing a Trane XV80 two stage var speed furnace with 4 ton XR15 AC condenser.

Dip switches on furnace should be checked. Don't rely on default settings from factory.

There are two special features that installer should pay close attention to. The two stage heat and dehumidify on demand features.

This is not a job for someone to wing it so to speak.

IMO

I get very frustrated when I read posts like this.

You are paying this installer several thousand dollars to install your variable speed furnace and thermostat. You should insist it be done properly. Otherwise you have paid a lot of money for equipment that will not be operate at its full potential.

I recommend you or your Dad start not try to fix the installer's mistakes. You may void the warranty if something goes wrong.

Heavy Sigh.

He is suggesting the pro8000. He says:

"The only major difference I can detect is the phone line compatability. Was that something you were looking at?"

What is the difference between the IAQ and the pro8000 that is important to my system so that I can point it out instead of just saying "please just put in what I asked for".

Thanks!

"There are two special features that installer should pay close attention to. The two stage heat and dehumidify on demand features."

This is a perfect example of dealer stupidity. He apparently does not want to take the time to do his homework and reach out to other resources for help. Sometimes it's hard to learn something new. Ask him to stretch a little bit, it won't hurt.

Ask dealer how staging of the two stage heat on the XV80 will work, from a timer on the furnace board or controlled by the thermostat based on demand.

Ask dealer how dehumidification in AC cooling works.

Finally ask dealer why purchase a nice XV80 furnace and cripple its capabilities with the wrong stat. Makes a heck of a lot of sense.

IMO

This post was edited by tigerdunes on Tue, Apr 30, 13 at 10:37

He says that the 8320s don't have dehumidification control, but the 8321s like this one do:

https://customer.honeywell.com/en-US/Pages/Product.aspx?cat=HonECC Catalog&pid=TH8321U1006/U&category=VisionPRO%C2%AE&catpath=1.3.33.1.36 & rank=5&v1=Sort.1.Product.Rank&asc=1

(for some reason I can't paste this link in so that ti will work. When you paste into a browser, you have to replace the space between ECC and Catalog with a (percentSign)20)

When I look at the product info sheet for this 8321 myself, the TH8321U1006/U is indeed 2H/2C, and the description says:

"The L terminal is an input or output.; Selectable: Programmable or Non-Programmable; Includes Dehumidification Control."

It doesn't mention a dehumidification range setting anywhere on the page though like the IAQ does; TH9421C1004/U:.

"Includes Humidification Control with or without Frost Protection, Dehumidification using Whole House Dehumidifier or Air Conditioning with High or Low speed fan, Advanced Patented Ventilation Control and Advanced Dual Fuel Heat Pump Control."

And at the bottom shows a dehumidification range setting of 40-80% RH.

I looked at the owner's manual for the TH8321U1006. It does show how to set up for dehumidification and it says that it can use the a/c to do so.

Can the IAQ actually control the VS furnace vs-like, whereas the 8321s can only control the VSs 2-stage?

How do I counter?

This post was edited by barbja on Wed, May 1, 13 at 10:04

I am not a Honeywell thermostat expert, so I am going by the documentation provided by Honeywell.

The documentation on the 8321 is confusing. It states it has dehumidification on demand, but it does not have a humidity level display nor does it have a way to control the humidity level. It seems the thermostat will turn on the AC when it senses a high humidity level and will lower the temperature up to 3 degrees to reach this unknown humidity level. This is a poor set up in my opinion.

If you go to Amazon.com you will see the IAQ is cheaper than the 8321. I don't think you need to get the IAQ interface module, but even with that module it is still cheaper. For some reason your installer is being stubborn about the thermostat installation. I can only conclude he does not want to be bothered in learning how to install a thermostat.

Hi Mike -- the user manual that I looked at that I got to through the literature tab for that TH8321U1006/U had a humidity setting that you could increase and decrease. It shows the current inside (in tiny numbers under the temp) and the outside humidity levels (next to the outdoor temp).

That doesn't necessarily mean that it accomplishes the dehumidify task in the best way for the expensive (to me) equipment that I'm acquiring. Would it work exactly the same with an X?80, where ? is not a V?

>I can only conclude he does not want to be bothered in learning how to install a thermostat.

Ya, and I don't know what to do about that.