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Replacing HVAC - is Carrier better than Trane?

Posted by bjsbuds1 (My Page) on
Mon, Apr 2, 12 at 21:24

2,400 sq ft ranch with 14 ft ceilings in 40% of house, also 1,000 sq ft finished basement in Southern Ohio.

Looking to replace builder installed 1996 Goodman GSU100-4 furnace and 1998 Janitrol CK49-1B 4-ton A/C unit. A/C unit failed two years ago. Was told it would only last one week and two years later it is still, but better not press my luck. Heat with propane.

Have received quotes from four different companies for Carrier, Trane, Bryant, and Tempstar systems.

From what I have read, Carrier is the favorite on this forum, and Trane is a close second. However, the Carrier dealer said that Bryant was better than Trane, and that Trane and Tempstar were on the same level.

Here are the two systems I am comparing at this point.

TRANE:
Furnace XV-95 / 100,000 BTU, 2 Stage, Variable Speed Blower Gas Furnace 96.7% AFUE and Heat Pump XL16i / 4 Ton,2 stage, 15.5 SEER, Clean Effects Air Cleaner, and Humidifier - $12,951 less $200 rebates.

Or

Carrier:
Furnace Infinity 96 Two-stage gas furnace (59TN6A100E21-22) and Carrier Puron Performance series two-stage heat pump (25HBC648), Infinity Air Purfier, and Humidifier - $13,795 less $350 in rebates.

Quotes are based upon 36 months interest free. Both companies are highly regarded.

Another $5,000 and I can get a Geothermal system, net of IRS tax credit.

Have no plans of moving in the near future, and ultimate goal is to lower electric & propane costs.

I would really appreciate your opinions on if these are the best systems for me, and if one is better than the other.


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Replacing HVAC - is Carrier better than Trane?

I would get the geo-thermal if its only 5,000 grand extra. If you don't have gas that would be a good investment. I know your winters aren't that easy in southern ohio but could be worse.

I think the prices you received for systems are quite high.
If you want to get off propane at the very minimum a high efficiency heat pump is all you need. You could get off propane completely and have back up with electrical resistance.


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RE: Replacing HVAC - is Carrier better than Trane?

buds1

How much are you laying for propane and how much for electric?

Post back.

IMO


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RE: Replacing HVAC - is Carrier better than Trane?

Carrier/Bryant and Trane all have very good equipment as long as you stay away from their builder's grade models. Trane and Tempstar are not on the same level. The possible exception is Trane's builder grade equipment.

I agree your quoted prices are high. Is there any other work being done which you have not listed?

Are you getting the Carrier rebate? The Infinity furnace, heat pump, and controller combination qualifies for an $1100 rebate. It is worth investigating. The heat pump you quoted I think is being discountinued. There is nothing wrong with that as long as it is a legal match to the furnace and coil.

If you post your prices for propane and electricity, then it can be determined whether it makes economic sense to abandon the propane furnace for back up electric heat strips.

Can you post the details of the Geothermal system you can get for a net $18,795? This price sounds very low.


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RE: Replacing HVAC - is Carrier better than Trane?

I am not sure if other work is being performed. Here is what the quote says:
We are pleased to submit to you an estimate and specifications for the installation of a Carrier
59TN6 Infinity two stage variable speed gas furnace with a Carrier 25HCB6 Performance 16SEER two
stage heat pump Hybrid system to be installed in your home.

Recover refrigerant as required by law. Remove and junk existing gas furnace, air conditioner
and thermostat. Furnish and install one #59TN6A100E21-22 Carrier high efficiency Infinity
series two stage/variable speed furnace with one #KGANP5201VSP Natural to Propane
conversion kit and one #25HBC648 Carrier Puron high efficiency Performance series two
stage heat pump with one #CNPVP4821ATA Carrier tin plated cased evaporator coil. The
furnace has a 96.0% AFUE efficiency rating and a 100,000 Btuh input capacity. The heat pump
has a 47,500 Btuh nominal cooling capacity high stage and 39,000 in low and a 16.0 SEER
rating. New furnace to sit in same location as that of existing with a new return air drop, filter
rack with hinged door, plenum and necessary sheet metal fittings to reconnect to the existing
supply and return ductwork. Reconnect to the existing electric furnace circuit with a new switch
and box. Reconnect to the existing gas line. PVC venting to be reconnected to existing. New
condensate drain line to the floor drain with a new trap and clean out. New heat pump to be
installed in same location as that of the existing. Furnish and install new outside fused
disconnect as per Carrier and code requirements. Purge with nitrogen and reconnect to the
existing refrigerant lines from the new indoor coil to the new outdoor
unit. Furnish and install one #STAT-TP-PRH Performance
programmable Thermidistat. Complete with necessary taxes, labor,
wiring, and materials.

COST

Furnish and install the complete Infinity/Performance Hybrid HVAC system as described for
Ten Thousand Eight Hundred and Ninety ($11,765.00) Dollars.
This system qualifies for $200.00 Duke Energy rebate and a $150.00 Carrier rebate.

OPTIONS
Add one Carrier #GAPAAX1625 Infinity air purifier for an additional $1,550.00. This also
qualifies for a $150.00 Carrier rebate. Net $1,400.00.

I don't mind paying a fair price, but I don't want to be taken advantage of.


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Electric & Propane Costs

Not exactly sure what electric and propane costs I should be posting. My costs the past three years have been as follows:
Electric:
2009 - $2,298 for 19,120 kWh
2010 - $3,226 for 24,441 kWh
2011 - $2,988 for 23,649 kWh

Propane:
2009 - $2,193 for 1,060 gallons @ avg $2.29 per gallon
2010 - $2,377 for 892 gallons @ avg $2.66 per gallon
2011 - $2,730 for 921 gallons @ avg $2.96 per gallon


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RE: Replacing HVAC - is Carrier better than Trane?

If you are going to buy a Infinity furnance, then you should get the Infinity thermostat. I am surpised the contractor did not offer this to you.

Do you need the air purifier? If not you can be saving $1400.

The contractor should offer you a heat pump which would qualify for a rebate. Did he quote other heat pump options?

Other there any other good Carrier dealers in your area? It would be a good idea to get another quote.


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RE: Replacing HVAC - is Carrier better than Trane?

Your electricity isn't too badly priced.
How is your insulation? I would get the highest efficiency single stage heatpump and do some insulating. Since you already have a propane tank you could also have a propane furnace for the extremely cold weather. This would be dual-fuel.

Ofcourse geo-thermal is better and would save you money on energy and more comfort during extreme temperatures. Only issue with geo-thermal is the extra cost of installation.


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RE: Replacing HVAC - is Carrier better than Trane?

mike_home,

I am actually meeting with another Carrier dealer tomorrow. Will be interested to see what they recommend and how their pricing compares.


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RE: Replacing HVAC - is Carrier better than Trane?

bjsbuds1,

we are in Cinci and building a new home - are you pleased with your dealer and their service in quoting you? We are looking at a Bryant system, but would like an option. Thanks.


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RE: Replacing HVAC - is Carrier better than Trane?

For another $5k more why wouldn't you install geothermal?

Except for filter changes it is a completely maintenance free system that will last at least twice as long as anything else you're considering.

At your current electrical rate, geothermal will cost 3.15 cents per kW of heat that it puts into your house (COP 4) - not including the potential savings on A/C & DHW or the increased resale value.

SR


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RE: Replacing HVAC - is Carrier better than Trane?

SR - "maintenance free" - unlikely. Not a big deal but unlikely.

While I agree with $5k probably being a worthwhile expenditure, but the payback might actually be many years.

Switching to a ASHP alone should save 70% over propane in his climate - so he is probably down to $800 a year. Geo would probably get that down to $600 a year. This is basically using Propane as equivalent to electric and using COP 3 for ASHP and COP 4 for GSHP. The a/c savings would add another $50 or so. So he may be looking at 20 year payback but also likely greater longevity of equipment. But there are more pumps to break on a GSHP.

Southern Ohio does not have particularly cold winters but a COP 3 may be a little optimistic. But average in 2012 and the savings from GSHP would be significantly less.


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RE: Replacing HVAC - is Carrier better than Trane?

Re: david cary

I stand by my claim. Properly designed and installed, geothermal should be maintenance free except for filters and perhaps a belt if it's an older unit.

We have our geothermal system almost 10 years without a single service call. I just change the filter and that's it! There has been a savings of over $1500 in annual service contracts alone.

Geothermal is the most expensive system to install and you can play with the numbers to confirm almost any result you want. In the end everybody does what's best for him or her.

BTW: The wet rotor pump on an indoor flow center will likely outlast the fan motor in an outdoor condenser. If the GSHP is DX there is no flow center or pump.

SR


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