That is a nice system assuming they ran a load calc and it is sized properly.

I will make two comments on the duct work involved.

(1) - A 12x8 duct is capable of moving a good amount of air. Where are these two new take-offs serving and what size are they, if you know? They may be using a balancing damper, but the 12x8 with only wo take-offs in a residential setting stood out at me.

(2) - Depending on where and how they install the new 8" return, it could be pulling a lot of air. You don't want to make the basement too negative as you can create further problems (the worst one being backdraft of gas-fired appliances such as a water heater). It's hard to say whether something will or will not be an issue without being on-site, but it is something to be aware of. Again, they could always use a damper to control airflow. There is a lot of pressure near the furnace inlet (blower section). For example, I have measured that the 6" return in my basement pulls well over 200 cfm, which is already more than the conditioned air I am providing. With an 8" (no damper) I imagine I'd be seeing 300-400 cfm which is too much.

This post was edited by ryanhughes on Fri, Apr 5, 13 at 20:36

Rich,

I see you have opted for the top of the line equipment! If it is installed properly you should be pleased.

Dare I ask what the price is?

I checked the AHRI directory and I don't see a configuration with the 2 ton coil. I see configurations with 3, 3.5, 4, and 5 ton coils. Check with the contractor and see if he is proposing a valid match.

What is an air bear media filter system?

This equipment is very nice, but costly to repair. Did you find out how much is the Carrier 10 year labor warranty? I usually don't recommend extended warranties, but it something you should consider.

I did not see the AHRI HP directory match with the coil listed so I do question if this is a good match.

Ask dealer for the matching AHRI HP directory number for the system he quoted. I may be wrong but don't believe he can.

IMO

For Mike

Triton Air Bear Media Cabinets are a third party line of filter cabinets like AorilAire and Honeywell.

Link below.

Here is a link that might be useful: Air Bear Filter Cabinets

ryan as for the return in the basement it;s already a 6 inch he is upgrading it to an 8 inch plus I have 2 6 inch feeds in the basement so negitave pressure shouldn't be an issue.

mike the price is $16k $3 k more than the trane system I was quoted but that was for 16i and two stage furance plus I'm getting $2500 in rebates so that makes it a little easier.

tiger I will ask about the matching coil is it possible there isn't one for my size. Wyt would he not give me the matching coil with such a good system like thie? This company was the most professional and did the most complete load test and also seems very knowledgable about hybrid dual fuel systems this is why I picked them over the trane system i was quoted

The coil model number could have been an honest mistake on the quote. Normally you would use a 2 ton coil with a 2 ton heat pump or condenser. But in this case the AHRI directory is saying the coil needs to be at least 3 tons. Ask the contractor to confirm this.

Let us know when the installation is done.

Good luck.

Rich, two 6" supplies do not necessarily dictate that an 8" return is adequate, or a 6" return is inadequate. It's a bit more involved than that. That's why I said it depends on where the return is being installed, how long the flex run will be (if it is flex), etc. I'll say again that there is a lot of pressure right by the blower, and oftentimes I'll see short 8" return runs out to a basement wall, and they pull a lot more air than necessary. Not good when trying to achieve a properly balanced air distribution system. When a space goes negative air finds ways to come in from outside (or other places you don't want it to) to compensate for the pressure imbalance. If they are using flex and installing a balancing damper, I don't see a big issue, but I think the 6" is fine as is for reasons above and is likely already more than sufficient for the cfm supplied to the basement. A balometer hood would measure it; wonder if your dealer owns one?

$16k is a lot of money, but you are looking at some expensive equipment and they've done the legwork it seems to ensure the system will be sized and designed properly. Definitely get that coil model checked ASAP. They should have taken better care to make sure they were giving you the right coil model number, and hopefully they would have caught it prior to ordering the equipment.

Best of luck and keep us posted. Still curious about the 12x8 duct with two take-offs. Were they just going to branch this off the main supply plenum above the indoor coil (assuming upflow config.)? Curious how long the run is and what it will serve. Are some rooms not staying comfortable in the winter/summer?

This post was edited by ryanhughes on Sat, Apr 6, 13 at 14:08

ryan fyi there is not a door on the stairs leading to finished room in basement would this help the pressure you are talking about. Also the 12x8 duct is just fixing a problem where someone cut it short and had two lines feeding out with one being out the end with he said you should never do that. So he will extend the duct and then have two lines come out the right way.

"ryan fyi there is not a door on the stairs leading to finished room in basement would this help the pressure you are talking about."

Yes it would -- sorry for assuming it was closed off like many. They still would likely want to use a manual damper for a balancing purposes. Maybe not, depends on the setup.

Makes sense on the ductwork. I agree with him, the "cap and tap" technique you described is not great for balancing.

Sounds like you have a good feeling about this dealer and he's doing all the right things. My guess is the coil was a mistake. I would ask for the corrected model number as well as a reference number from AHRI (they'll know what this means).

Last thing. With these Greenspeed units, the 2 ton and 3 ton models use the same compressor (as do the 4 ton and 5 ton) and have the same minimum cooling/heating capacity. The different model plugs "tell" throttle the max capacity on the 2 ton model to a specific value. With the inverter system, you wouldn't really be oversized going with a 3 ton. May even be of benefit IF your ductwork is adequate for the extra airflow the 3 ton may require on max output (about 400 cfm). Since it's an inverter system, the Infinity logic will choose the required btu output capacity depending on conditions. Something to think about because: With the extra heating capacity of the 3 ton heat pump (which is extremely efficient even down to low temps), your balance/switchover rate to propane (expensive?) would be much lower. Something to consider.

This post was edited by ryanhughes on Sat, Apr 6, 13 at 17:16

Ok so I called them up and asked about the coil not matching they checked it out and the office person typed the wrong model number she said. Here's the updated quote is this one better?? Thanks for all your help.

(1) Carrier 20 SEER Greenspeed Infinity Heat Pump, model # 25VNA024A003
(1) Carrier 97% Efficient Modulating Infinity Furnace, model #
59MN7A060V17-14
(1) Carrier Cased Evaporator Coil, model # CNPVP3617A17ALA+UI
(1) Carrier Infinity WI FI Control, model # SYSTXCCITW01
(1) Air Bear Media Filter System
(1) Carrier Propane Kit
(1) Copper Line Set
(1) Gas Lines Run for Furnace and Water Heater with (2) Future Taps
(1) Pc. 12X8 duct with (2) supply take offs

Rich

I am going to offer a comment which you probably won't like but you need to hear it.

This is a premium system with what I am certain is a premium price.

According to the AHRI directory, the system you listed is an AHRI match.

Here it is C&P from the directory.

4701908 Active Systems INFINITY 20 HP WITH GREENSPEED INTELLIGENCE CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25VNA024A**30 CNPV*3617A**+UI 59*N*A060V17**14 24200 14.50 18.60 24000 10.40 25400 1 HRCU-A-CB 154 456 Yes

I am a believer in the directory, matching systems, and performance/efficiency numbers. The heat pump carries a 10.40 HSPF. That is a lousy number for a premium heat pump like that.

Here is my suggestion. Ask the dealer for an alternative matching coil that yields an HSPF efficiency rating at a minimum above 12. If money and operating costs are not a concern, then just go with the above system.

I want you to know this up front though.

IMO

Tiger what do you recommend being that this is a 60k furnace....I did contact them and the girl in the office not the owner(he'll be in tomorrow) said she went on the AHRI directory and she said in order to get over 12 HSPF she would have to upgrade to an 80k and a 4 ton coil. Now she did say she may not know and that the owner would call me tomoorw to discuss. Thanks for your help

That is correct. While a higher HSPF number is great, remember these are benchmark ratings in a controlled lab environment. I wouldn't want to oversize the furnace for such a gain in that regard. Additionally, the larger coil (more surface area) would likely not dehumidify as well comparatively. I still suggest you consider my earlier recommendation to ask about a 3 ton heat pump for more capacity at lower temperatures (i.e., greater overall efficiency as you'll not be using as much propane). Ductwork does need to be accounted for if such a change is made. Maximum compressor speed on cooling can be controlled through the Infinity system. The 2 ton and 3 ton units are identical with the exception of the maximum programmed compressor rpm (hence the nominal 2 ton and 3 ton sizes). Carrier in their literature specifies that for a 24k btuh cooling load, a 36k btuh heat pump would be the maximum recommended capacity for heating season.

This post was edited by ryanhughes on Tue, Apr 9, 13 at 18:17

I am a believer in the directory, matching systems, and performance/efficiency numbers. The heat pump carries a 10.40 HSPF. That is a lousy number for a premium heat pump like that.

Here is my suggestion. Ask the dealer for an alternative matching coil that yields an HSPF efficiency rating at a minimum above 12. If money and operating costs are not a concern, then just go with the above system.

So tigerdunes any suggestions???? why make a comment like this with no response, I'll tell you why cause there's not an answer. With a smaller load like my house I will not get those high HSPF numbers, maybe with a different brand but not Carrier. I would have to up size my furnace and coil for a small gain.
I do appreciate all of you HVAC professionals that help out us home owners but I don't understand what you are getting at tiger you were on the AHRI directory you can see there isn't another option so why make the comment jmo

This is not true.

You can get a higher HSPF according to the directory with a different model Carrier coil with the same 60 K furnace.

Now the question is whether that coil will fit your application. Only your dealer will know this as I can't see that far.

I was just trying to bring this to your attention and help you out. I assure you I will not say anymore on the subject.

Here are the listings for same model coil different size, same furnace.

4701908 Active Systems INFINITY 20 HP WITH GREENSPEED INTELLIGENCE CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25VNA024A**30 CNPV*3617A**+UI 59*N*A060V17**14 24200 14.50 18.60 24000 10.40 25400 1 HRCU-A-CB 154 456 Yes

4701910 Active Systems INFINITY 20 HP WITH GREENSPEED INTELLIGENCE CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25VNA024A**30 CNPV*3621A**+UI 59*N*A060V17**14 24200 14.50 18.70 24000 10.40 25400 1 HRCU-A-CB 153 456 Yes

4701915 Active Systems INFINITY 20 HP WITH GREENSPEED INTELLIGENCE CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25VNA024A**30 CNPV*4217A**+UI 59*N*A060V17**14 24400 14.90 19.10 23400 11.60 25200 1 HRCU-A-CB 151 409 Yes

4701917 Active Systems INFINITY 20 HP WITH GREENSPEED INTELLIGENCE CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25VNA024A**30 CNPV*4221A**+UI 59*N*A060V17**14 24200 14.80 18.90 23600 11.60 25200 1 HRCU-A-CB 152 409 Yes

4701922 Active Systems INFINITY 20 HP WITH GREENSPEED INTELLIGENCE CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25VNA024A**30 CNPV*4821A**+UI 59*N*A060V17**14 24600 15.20 19.50 23400 12.30 25200 1 HRCU-A-CB 149 385 Yes

There are those that come on this forum seeking help but don't like what they hear.

IMO

This post was edited by tigerdunes on Wed, Apr 10, 13 at 15:17

I found this on the AHRI directory. This may be a solution. It has a HSPF of 12.1.

175034 Active Systems INFINITY 20 HP WITH GREENSPEED INTELLIGENCE CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25VNA024A**30 CNPV*4824A**+UI 59MN7A060V21**20 24800 15.00 19.30 23200 12.10 25000 1 HRCU-A-CB 152 392 Yes

This is the same furnace but in the 21 inch width. Apparently the furnace comes in 4 different widths to accommodate several coil sizes. The draw back of this configuration is that the coil is a 4 ton size and a 24 in with. The furnace does also come in a 24.5 inch width but I don't see it listed as a match. You could use the 21 inch furnace but the contractor would have to build a transition between the coil and furnace. It is not a big deal. I have this in my house.

There could be some loss of humidity control with the 4 ton coil. Both the coils in my house are oversized and the humidity is low in the summer. Then again I have reciprocating compressors on my condensers, so my low stage is down around 55% of capacity.

In summary you are spending a lot of money. Sit down with the contractor and go over all of these options before making a final decision on the equipment.

I am not sure what I was missing when I entered those numbers on AHRI and came up with no combinations with HSPF of over 12. Well said tiger, thanks for setting this straight and providing all the numbers to look at. You begin to question why the dealer didn't recommend those options unless there were space issues limiting them from using a larger coil. Or the SHR numbers aren't real great with the large evaps.

This post was edited by ryanhughes on Wed, Apr 10, 13 at 16:19

Ryan

I appreciate the comment. You know these coil configurations much better than I do. I was not certain that there might be another substitute coil model that would fit this homeowner's application and yield 12+ HSPF. I do know I would want to exhaust all possibilities before settling for such a mediocre HSPF as dealer system quoted.

Thx again
TD

Like I said before I do appreciate all the help....When I talked to my dealer they said because I'm using a special loan program I cannot oversize due to certain guidlines for approval of the loan. And tiger I'm willing to hear everything, you guys are the pros not me, just was frustrated you wern't responding. This has been a long exhausting road with trying to find a contractor fighting with the gas company and now picking of the equipment...again thanks guys

Rich

Despite what you think, I do have other activities and responsibilities outside this forum.

I have said my peace on this thread. Done and Done.

IMO

Using a larger coil is not over sizing in my opinion. You can argue the bigger coil is more efficient and keeps within the spirit of the loan program.

I paid 6500 for my Rheem and it has a better hspf than yours. 3 ton 10.5hspf 15 seer.

I wish I had a carrier with greenspeed but not with the numbers they are trying to sell you.