Don't know if I should start a new thread for this or just keep going.

Here's what the second company has told me (and we used to use this company in the past for a service contract but let it go because we thought it was too expensive--but perhaps we should have kept it up).

The salesman says that they would replace our R22 TXV for a new one while saving the 410 ATXV in a box on top of it. Then when we go to replace the outdoor unit, they'll switch out the R22 TXV for the 410--allowing us to do this in increments.

He said we've got a 2004 unit and we could get at least a couple more years out of it.

BTW, the furnace is a TUE100A948L and is 21" across.

He agreed about the 15 vs 13--that the 15 wouldn't do us any good with the size of our furnace (or whatever you guys had said--I've learned a lot but mind's still whirling with all this).

For the coil only, he quoted about $2000; if we opt to go for the whole thing with a new XB13 (what he has written down looks like 4TWB3042B1000B) would be about $5700.

How does this sound?

This post was edited by Bhamster on Fri, Apr 12, 13 at 16:38

Wow, I don't want to give anyone a headache--like I have--but I just called a guy that was recommended to me as "wonderful!" (can you tell it was by another woman?). I had a hard time understanding his deep Southern accent, but basically he's saying "Why don't you just let me come and see if I can't fix the coil and that would only cost you about $600-700?"

Is that a good idea or not? I was trying to tell him of the two options I had been given above, but he seemed to think it would be hard to find a coil to replace what we've got. (No idea why he thinks that.) And when I told him of the $5700 for a new unit, he seemed to be making something like a sheesh sound on the other end of the line.

He's been in the biz 33 years, not BBB rated, but no complaints against him.

Most repairs like that are only warranted for 30 days so you need to ask him about that.

Guess what, even if he makes repair, you still have an old system.

Guess what, even if coil is replaced, you still have an old system.

My point is you must weigh the choices carefully. I still believe a new R410 HP condenser with matching coil is the best way to go,

Let this dealer offer a quote on new R410 13 SEER HP with matching coil.

Would like to hear from others on this.

IMO

Here is exactly what the dealer wrote as a second option: "Install 4TWB3042B1000B and coil above. This is a 13 SEER with 10 yrs on compressor, 10 yrs parts and 1 yr labor. Price for this is $5700."

It comes down to how much of a risk you want to take. I feel the $600 repair option is both unlikely to work and too risky. The complete replacement at $5700 is the least risk,y but somewhat wasteful if the OP is moving in less than two years.

I would lean towards replacing the coil for $2000 provided you get at least a one year guarantee on the work. But if you have any doubts about moving in two years, then get the full replacement.

Thanks so much for the advice. I didn't feel all that good about just fixing the coil. It made me feel like having a dad insist he could fix something instead of calling in a professional. ;-)

The coil only option would have a 1yr limited warranty on labor and 5-10 yrs limited parts warranty. (He couldn't remember if it was 5 or 10 years and is supposed to confirm later.)

I guess I should stop bothering you guys now. Seems like the big decision for us is whether we think we'll stay longer than 2 years.

I'm getting one more quote tomorrow, so I'll let you know if there's anything different this guy tells me.

Thanks a ton!

Hey everyone--just wanted to report that I had another company in to give me an estimate. A smaller company than the first 2 but it's been around since 1977--and also an A+ BBB rating with no complaints in 3 years. Long story short, they can put in a new Trane XB13 with new pad, thermostat, matching coil, 10 yr warranty on parts, 1 yr on labor, lifetime warranty on workmanship--for $3900.

I told him I love him--is that okay? ;-)

So he's got the job as far as I'm concerned. I asked his advice about what to do about the first tech telling me he did $750 in repairs. He was shocked at that but said their company would probably charge $350 for charging the freon--so I might just act preemptively and send that company a check for $300, hoping that will be sufficient. I already paid $145 for the "Spring tuneup" but I'm not sure he did any of that. (BTW, the owner of that company just left a voice message saying he wanted to talk to us about that 10% error--sounds like he REALLY doesn't want to lose the business. Too late.)

I owe it to you guys for questioning all this stuff I was being told--made me keep searching for a better deal/company. Thanks so much!

It's a 3 1/2 ton size? It is a HP condenser?

What model evap coil? It's a Trane coil? No third party coil!

Price is almost too reasonable.

What thermostat? Must be a dual fuel stat. I like the 803 or HW Mdl 8321 with humidity sensor.

Just a few details you should double check.

IMO
Good Luck!

I called the guy to ask your questions and he said, yes, everything is Trane. (I think they pretty much only do Trane.)

It's 3.5 tons 42 BTUs. The coil is a Trane 4TXCA042BC3HCB (I'm not positive I got it right as I don't speak Southern very well).

The thermostat is a Trane 402 with duel fuel package.

HP condenser 4TWB3042B1000B--the same setup as we have presently.

He didn't mind the questions and invited me to call with any others.

So can I rest easy, do you think? I really liked the guy myself and didn't feel pressured like I did with the other 2.5 (the half being the guy who would fix the coil alone).

Thanks again!

EDIT: I asked what it would cost to upgrade to a programmable thermostat. He said it would be another $60. I think we'll go for it.

This post was edited by Bhamster on Sat, Apr 13, 13 at 16:07

Get Trane's 803 stat or identical and less expensive HW mdl 8321 with humidity sensor especially taking in consideration hot Alabama summers with extreme humidity. You should have an outdoor sensor to control changeover from HP heat to nat gas and vice versa.

IMO

I've arranged for that--think it's another $100. Not sure which one he's giving me--I had asked if he could get either one and he said it would be "another 60 for the thermostat and 40 for the sensor." So actually I'm not sure if he means "another 60" on top of the 60 he already quoted for a programmable thermostat.

At this point, what's another 60? ;-)

I'm just glad I was able to say sayanora to the other companies without any hassles. We thought the first company might ask us to pay the so-called $750 in repairs that the tech told me he had done. The owner called my husband Saturday night--and we were nervous about what he was going to say--but all he said was sorry about the mix-up over the price.

I'm really grateful--and so is my husband--that you made me keep asking these questions till I got a much better price! (You might find it amusing--I found it rather touching--that the guy we're going with said something like, "See, the Lord was telling you to keep looking till you got a good price." Only in the South... :-)

I luv that last sentence!

Let us know how the install goes. Your timing looks pretty good!

BTW, I don't know if you said but are you close to Birmingham? I was there in August not so many years ago for about 4 days and it was 105 every day.

IMO
Good Luck!

Yes, Birmingham. And yes, I believe you about the weather. My poor husband is a letter carrier (walking route)--so the a/c HAS to work when he comes home!

I'll let you know how it goes.

This is all good to hear. I think you've made the right decisions. Good luck with the installation, and thanks for continuing to keep us posted. Properly installed, you have a very nice replacement system.

Hey guys,

It was all installed this morning--looks and sounds and feels so much better than the old one. It's so quiet in comparison, I hope our next door neighbors have to get one soon.

Only thing is that the thermostat is the Honeywell TH8320 instead of the 8321. They apparently had to run out to some kind of store to get one and I told them 8321, but they said, "No, it's the 8000." But since we don't have a dehumidifier, should this one be acceptable? (Oh, and even though they do exclusively Trane stuff, they agreed about the HW being the same as the 803.)

I have to tell you that the installers were a bit impressed that I knew all about the specific components--like when I asked where they had installed the sensor for the thermostat--while my husband was kind of clueless about it all. ;-)

Thanks again for all your help!

Hey! I just have to add this: yesterday early evening we were outside and noticed our neighbor standing next to his condenser with some kind of technician. Turns out his a/c went out that day--the first hot and uncomfortably humid day.

The guy has NEVER spoken to us before, but now he was quite interested in our new unit and we gave him all the information. The tech guy was someone he worked with at the school district, so not prepared to replace the unit for him--but he knew the guy/business that installed ours and had good things to say about them. So even though these neighbors have never liked us, it looks like we saved them a whole lot of shopping around--and money!

The neighbors' trouble also makes us feel we made the right decision on getting a whole new unit instead of just trying to fix. Thanks for talking me/us out of it.

I would want the 8321 thermostat that has humidity sensor for overcooling especially taking into consideration your Birmingham location and hot/humid summers. For such little money difference, this is a big deal. Insist on this change. You won't regret it.

IMO

I am glad everything has worked out well for you. You are becoming the neighborhood AC expert!

Thank TD, I went ahead and asked for the replacement. Told him I didn't realize the difference till I was filling out the warranty info (which is true). I would hope he'll make the switch--esp. since I told him that we recommended him to our next door neighbor.

EDIT: Just got an email reply that they will switch out the thermostats and won't charge us anything extra. These guys are awesome.

And thanks Mike--I AM rather proud that I now know (sort of) how a heat pump works and all. My dad would be proud of me if he were still alive.

This post was edited by Bhamster on Thu, Apr 18, 13 at 19:44

Excellent!

And when he comes to exchange thermostat to 8321 model, ask him to set changeover from HP to gas at 32 degrees. Ask him to show you how to change that temperature if you ever want to adjust it up or down.

Gather all operating manuals and keep together on condenser, coil, thermostat, etc. as well as quote etc.

And find out if you need to do anything as far as registering this new equipment for Trane warranty.

IMO
Good Luck!

Thanks--will do!

(I don't know if changing the subject makes this a new post, but this is in relation to my original post, "Can anyone tell me if this sounds okay?" -- yes, a dumb name for a post, but I was upset at the time.)

Tigerdunes, a guy came on Monday to switch out the Honeywell 8320 thermostat for the 8321. Problem was, he didn't have it with him and came into the house like, "Now what was it you wanted?" I showed him the instructions that came with the thermostat and pointed out that it's simply the next model number.

"Oh, that's not gonna work with your system--you need a 2-stage system for that." And he went on and on about how it's like having a Cadillac body with a Chevy engine (or something like that)--it's just not going to do anything. "And besides, that kind of thermostat you're talking about costs $5-600."

Now THAT part I know isn't true since it's on Amazon right now for $130.

Since I didn't like the guy, I didn't argue with him--just wanted him gone. I figured I'd let it go, but now after a few days I'm thinking what the heck, maybe I should pursue it. And the first thing to find out if what he says is true about this 8321 being only for 2-stage systems.

Just plain ignorance.

The 8320 and 8321 are the same except the 8321 has a humidity sensor which will help you in AC cooling and dehumidification which I recommend for hot/humid Birmingham, Al....that's why I suggested it...you will need an outdoor sensor to control changeover temp from HP to nat gas.

Stand your ground and ask dealer to send out the correct stat with an experienced installer.

IMO

Both the Honeywell 8320 and 8321 can control single stage and 2-stage furnaces. There is one installation manual for both thermostats. The link is below.

The only difference between the two thermostats is the 8321 has a humidity sensor. Everything else is the same. Page 3 in the manual shows how a single stage heating and cooling system is connected.

Here is a link that might be useful: Honeywell 8320/8321

On the day of the installation, I asked them where they had put the humidity sensor, I was looking for the white box I'd seen online, but they showed me a little wire thingy that was sticking out of the condensing unit--and they told me that was better than the white box.

But are you guys telling me that this wire senor is no use with the 8320? It would only work with the 8321?

BTW, I forgot to add that the guy also told me: "Did you read about this on the Internet? You can't believe what you hear on the Internet." ;-)

Can you explain what is the "white box". If you saw it online to do have a part number?

What is the little wire thingy sticking out of the condenser? Think about it, how can the wire thingy sitting outside measure the indoor humidity? Did you read about this on the internet? :)

Oh, I thought the white sensor was required for reading the humidity. See the 'frequently bought together' on this Amazon page: http://www.amazon.com/Honeywell-TH8321U1006-Programmable-Thermostat-Programming/dp/B000LEU0YQ/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

I'll go take a picture of what they put outside.

Here is a link that might be useful: Honeywell 8321

Here's what they attached to the condensing unit.

That's the outdoor temperature sensor.

See link.

Here is a link that might be useful: HW Outdoor Temp Sensor

And the white box you are likely referring to is the optional remote indoor sensors.

They really should tape up those outdoor wire connections. I would have them do that when they send back a different tech with the TH8321, which will work with your existing system as stated. Just requires the tech to actually configure the settings in the install menu.

This post was edited by ryanhughes on Thu, May 2, 13 at 13:57

Ryan, which wires should be taped up? You mean with electrical tape?

Do I need the indoor sensor for the thermostat to work properly?

I hope they didn't mount the temperature sensor where it can be hit with direct sunlight. If they did they ask them to move it when they fix the wire connections.

Good point Mike...sensor should be in shade away from any wind source.

TD

It's a sheltered side of the house and is in the shade until late afternoon. If they put it on the opposite side of the unit, it might get morning sun, but I don't think it would get much.

And tell me which wire connections they have to fix so I can act like I know what I'm talking about. ;-)

The low voltage connections at the outdoor unit (exposed with wire nuts) are the ones I'm referring to. Yes, they just need to wrapped up with electrical tape.

The indoor remote sensor is optional. Otherwise the temp will be sensed from the thermostat location (typical). Remote sensors are used in a temp averaging setup or when the thermostat is not in an ideal location. Common in commercial applications, such as a restaurant, where the thermostat may be in the manager's office but the temperature sensor is in the dining area.

Here's the reply I got from the salesman when I told him what you, Tigerdunes and Mike_home, had told me:

"You only have single stage cooling. Those are two stage tsats. When second stage calls for cooling it won't come on cause you don't have one. AC units are dehumidifiers. So when dehumidification only happens when your unit is running. A tsat is only thing that controls on- off cycles. On cooling. On heating defrost cycles will."

I hate getting messages from phones--they're so cryptic! Does this make sense to you guys?

Not a good answer. They agreed to install the 8321 for you (as you original agreed on, correct?), so I don't see what the issue is... I would simply ask them to read the installation instructions. It really is amazing what you can learn by reading the manual!

These "two stage tstats" can also be set up properly to control single stage equipment as well. For what it's worth, the 8320 you currently have is also a "two stage tstat." The 8321 can be set up to run the air conditioner as needed, 1-3 deg below setpoint in cooling mode, to attempt to lower the humidity to whatever you set it at.

This post was edited by ryanhughes on Thu, May 2, 13 at 21:07

I'm feeling very...assertive. I just sent a rather long email more or less reading the riot act to the sales guy, asking if any of his techs have actually read the instructions. And I do have the instruction booklet in front of me that shows the 8320 and the 8321 are both for up to 3 heat/2 cool systems. The only diff being the humidification on the 8321.

I also told him that WHEN they install that 8321 as promised, they should wrap those low voltage wires and move the sensor to the other side of the unit.

My husband is impressed no end with me. :-) But I wish I didn't have to fight these guys. I don't think the sales guy is being a jerk: I just think he's believing his tech rather than what I tell him--after all, I'm getting my info off the Internet!

Wonder if I should bring up the scratch they made in a door when they took the e-coil up to the attic. I was going to let it go, but I'm annoyed now...

I too am impressed. You are doing the right things and might teach them something. They should want to please you; you are the one that will be (possibly) referring future customers to them. You are right on all accounts. Please keep us posted. :-)

Thanks for the encouragement: I lost my nerve this morning and didn't even want to check email--but the guy hasn't replied yet. I've told my husband he can step in and make a phone call if we don't hear back today or Monday.

I'm disappointed that the salesman has not replied to my last email. I'm going to write one more time and wanted to cut and paste the appropriate directions from the Honeywell installation guide. Can you tell me which of the following systems I have with a/c, gas furnace, and heat pump? (I'm confused as to whether "duel fuel" means 2 stage or if "stage" refers to something else.)

Standard Heat/Cool
Heat Only
Heat Only with Fan
Heat Only Series 20
Cool Only
Standard Multistage up to 2 Heat/2 Cool
Heat Pump with No Auxiliary Heat
Heat Pump with Auxiliary Heat

A retired HVAC guy who owns the HW 8321 told me: "Most heat pump systems are two stage, with the first stage being the compressor and the second stage the electric heat section. with a single stage system the w2 terminal is not connected." So I'm wondering if this is what I can tell the salesman--that all they have to do is not connect the w2 terminal???

Thanks!

You have a single stage heat pump with auxiliary heat back-up (the back-up source being the gas furnace). I wouldn't even mention wiring. That's their job. This is simply a matter of you getting the "upgraded" model of the VisionPro thermostat you initially agreed upon and paid for. Their argument that you don't have a 2-stage heat pump (you don't) is not valid as the 8320 and 8321 can both control up to 3 stages of heating and 2 stages of cooling (meaning it is appropriate for single stage heat pumps as well). You do have 2 stages of heat (the heat pump itself and the gas furnace). The 8321 has a humidity sensor and will cycle the compressor in an attempt to lower humidity when it rises above the setpoint. That is the benefit over the 8320.

Good luck.

Hey all, just to finish up this saga: they sent out a different tech today who said he was an HVAC geek, so he understood the differences between the 8320 and the 8321 thermostats. He has fixed all--and the best part for me is that he was able to turn off the light on the thermostat! Just for laughs I had shown him the cover I made for the thermostat at night--because it shines into our bedroom, even on the lower light setting. "Oh, I can turn that off for you." Hooray! He even gave us his cell phone number in case we have any other questions. My husband and I are now quite pleased--esp. because this guy was able to explain all the workings in a way we could finally understand.

Thanks everyone!

Great to hear a good ending. Thanks for posting back. And he taped up the outdoor low voltage connections, correct?

Yes, he did that too. :-)

It is nice to read about an adventure that ends well. Enjoy your new HVAC system.

Come back in July/August and tell us how system is performing.

You made the right decision.

When and if you decide to replace furnace, go with XV80 or XT80 furnace.

IMO

And tech set the changeover on heat from HP to nat gas furnace and showed you how to adjust?

Keep all documentation and manuals together if needed for future reference.

Make certain condenser and coil get registered for warranty.

Best Regards

Actually, he set everything but didn't leave the directions with us because he said that people often mess with the settings and get themselves in trouble. But since he left his cell phone number, I assume he means we can call if we have questions.

Yes, I've registered everything. Glad this is over with. ...Next project is getting a fence installed: hope it goes more smoothly!

Fences are easy if you have the bux!