I am confused about the HVAC systems in your house. Does the current 2.5 ton heat pump used for second floor only? Is new Carrier furnace and Comfortmaker AC for the providing heating and cooling for the first floor?

What is the location of the air handler for the current 2.5 ton heat pump?

Your house is 6750 sq. ft? Does this include the area of the basement?

Hi Mike,

To answer your questions:

- The current 2.5 heat pump is used for the second floor only.

- The carrier furnace and comfortmaker AC are providing heating and cooling for the first floor.

- The location of the air handler is in the attic

- The sq footage includes the basement.

Did the contractor do a heating and cooling load calculation? It seems like you have a lot of cooling (6.5 tons going to 7 tons). What are the areas of the first and second floors?

Tigerdunes is more of a heat pump expert than I am. But I will give you my opinions:

(a) The prices seem high. I realize it is top of the line equipment, but get additional quotes to compare. I don't think the Greenspeed heat pump is worth the money to heat the second floor when you have a gas furnace for the first. The Trane heat pumps have demand defrost. This is a feature you can use in Maryland.

(b) Ask for staged heat strips.

(c) You should get the Infinity controller if you get the Infinity heat pump. The rebate is reduced by $50 if you eliminate it.

(d) You don't have to replace the first floor AC now. It should have a few more years of life.

(e) If the refrigerant lines are reused, then the contractor must verify they are the proper size. You have to trust he will flush them properly. Did you know how much it will cost to replace them?

(f) The Infinity controller can control at what temperatures the heat pump and auxiliary heat will operate. You can set up two lock out temperatures (one each for heat pump and auxiliary). The lock out for the Greenspeed heat pump should be lower than the 25HNB. You can discuss this with the contractor.

I recommend getting a 4 inch media filter. You may also consider getting the Carrier 10 year labor warranty if it is not included in these quotes.

The only thing I would say about the lines is that they are not a function of age, but a function of the required size for the units in question.

As for your larger unit, you're on borrowed time. But unless the change is in the budget, I would just keep it for now.

AM

Why are you going up in size? Dealer has inspected your ductwork and it can handle the extra CFMs? Probably not.

What is size living area of upstairs?

When existing heat pump was operating correctly, were there any specific issues either in cooling or heating?

Definitely option #2 is overkill.

I would get a price on Trane's XR 15 heat pump or AmStd Heritage 15.

Regarding refrigerant lineset, age/condition is important but correct size to manufacturer spec is a must. If not to the right size, you will shortchange yourself on performance/efficiency capability.

Can't tell from the heat strip model number but that may be a 9 KW size. You
should verify. A 9 KW would be fine for a 2 1/2 ton condenser, might be a tad light for a 3 ton. Any idea of existing size? If you don't know, I suggest you find out.

If you are looking for a less expensive Carrier option, I can make a recommendation if interested.

Use the old 4 ton until it dies, but have a plan ready when it does. You might see what kind of deal the Carrier dealer is willing to give you if you select his equipment for the upstairs.

As far as thermostats, you should stick with the Infinity controller on those quotes. There would be a satisfactory and less expensive alternative though on a less expensive system that I mentioned above.

there are three equally important components-quality HVAC, the install by dealer, and probably the most overlooked and disregarded is the ductwork system.

these are my minimum specs for a new HP system. both outside and inside units should be replaced to have a properly matched system.

15 SEER, 12.5+ EER, 9 HSPF
best matching VS air handler
full BTUs in both cooling and heating for your rated size
R-410a refrigerant(same as Puron)
scroll compressor preferred
electronic demand defrost preferred
thermostat with "dehumidify on demand" feature
staged backup heat strips
new and correctly sized refrigerant lineset
10 yr warranty compressor and parts

you want a thorough inspection of your ductwork system. size, overall condition, supply and return lines, insulation qualities, leak test, etc.
any hot/cold spot issues in your home should be addressed.

I like Carrier/Bryant, Trane/AmStd, Rudd/Rheem.

I would only use authorized dealers for the various brands that provide quotes. see mfg websites.

IMO

Mike_Home, tigerdunes, weedmeister,

Thank you all for the helpful comments. I will respond to your comments/questions below:

1. @mike_home - dealer indicated they were doing load calculation - assumed that's why all the measurements, notes from independent energy audit, etc were taken.

2. @mike_home and tigerdunes - Area of upstairs is approx 2120 sq ft, main floor is approx 2,300, and remainder is basement

3. @mike_home - Dealer mentioned it would be an additional $1k to replace lines, but don't have anything in writing. If you feel its worth pursuing, I am open to that suggestion vs. flushing existing lines. You and tigerdunes are the experts and I trust your opinions. Alternatively, if you feel we can use the existing lines, shall I ask the dealer to verify they are the proper size in writing to mitigate any risk?

4. @tigerdunes - Good question regarding size - I assumed dealer was making a good call. Dealer indicated these 3 ton models were better than the current 2.5 ton. Shall I ask for something in writing indicating the ductwork can handle the extra CFMs or insist on a 2.5 ton unit?

5. @tigerdunes - when existing heat pump was operating correctly, no noticeable issues either in heating or cooling except for childrens bedrooms being a little cold in the winter. Assumed this was due to air leakage from attic hatch, recessed lighting, and some additional insulation required as per energy audit conducted last year. Utility bills were never outrageous since we moved in 3 yrs ago.

6. @tigerdunes - dealer indicated existing heat strip is 10KW during conversation when I asked for staged backup heat strips. You are correct that the model number is for a 9KW that is field convertible to 3 phase

7. @tigerdunes - Yes, I am open to your recommendations on another Carrier option. Also assuming I should ask a Trane dealer for a quote on a XR15 2.5 ton as you recommended. Is this a comparable model? Is it a bad idea to have a Carrier furnace and Trane heatpump?

Again, thank you very much for your guidance. Not sure if you guys ever get the credit you deserve for providing help to the community through this forum. It is very much appreciated.

Your existing system lasted 12 years before locking up. I'm with others in recommending that you ensure that the ductwork is properly sized. Most homes are short, and this affects equipment performance and, subsequently, lifespan. Going up to a 3 ton may not be in your best interest even though two-stage systems come in full ton sizes due to your existing ductwork. Have a load calculation performed and make sure the ductwork is sized right. $1000 to replace the lineset tells me the dealer doesn't want to do it, which is sad. I typically recommend replacing the lineset when possible, but if it's a tough one to replace, if it's sized properly and properly flushed/evacuated then you should be fine.

Your VP 8320 thermostat is good and can stay with most any system you replace it with (it will need to be reprogrammed depending on new equipment), unless you go communicating, like the Infinity is. Then you'll want the Infinity control to get the most out of the system.

This post was edited by ryanhughes on Sat, Apr 6, 13 at 1:12

I agree it doesn't make sense to spend a $1000 on a new line set providing the old one meets all the conditions Ryan Hughes stated above.

Ask the contractor he needs to cover any future problems with the old line set in his warranty. Get this in writing. The critical parts are the connections at each end. If agrees he will take care of any leaks during the warranty period then you will be fine.

AM

What are you doing about heat now-running straight emergency heat strip?

The most important requirement for a lineset is that it is sized to manufacturer spec whether 2 1/2 or 3 ton condenser.

You should insist on a properly performed load calculation for proper sizing. If load calc indicates going up in size, then dealer must confirm that ductwork both supply and return is sized correctly to handle the additional CFMs.

I would not use existing thermostat. Stay with the Infinity controller for option #1. If you decide to drop down to a less expensive system which I will list below, then you would want the Carrier Edge thermidistat.

Now to several other systems which might save you a few bucks.

2 1/2 ton system

3645735 Active Systems COMFORT 13 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HBC530A**30 FV4CN(B,F)005 29000 13.00 16.00 27600 9.00 16800 1 HRCU-A-CB 215 632 Yes

3 ton system

5475510 Active Systems PERFORMANCE 16 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HCB636A**31 FV4CN(B,F)005 36400 13.00 16.70 35400 9.20 22600 1 HRCU-A-CB 258 721 Yes

Both with Edge thermidistat.

IMO

Thanks to everyone for your input. Based on the feedback from the pros so far, I see that next steps are as listed below. Please let me know if I've misunderstood or missed anything:

1 - Ask dealer to provide, in writing, load calculation support for a 2.5 vs 3 ton system

2 - Ask dealer to provide, in writing, that existing ductwork (both supply and return) is sized correctly to handle the additional CFMs provided load calculation indicates going up in size to a 3 ton condenser.

3 - Ask dealer to provide, in writing, that existing lineset is sized properly to manufacturer spec and ask dealer to warranty any future issues with lineset (critical parts are connections at each end) $1000 to replace is not advisable unless existing lineset is not properly sized.

4 - Get additional quotes on equipment noted in proposal #1 from other Carrier dealers (along with load calcs). Current dealer pricing is very high. Remove Greenspeed model 25VNA036A003 from scope given we have a gas furnace for the first floor (this is overkill)

5 - Existing proposal for backup heat model FC-2901N09 is satisfactory (9KW that is field convertible to 3 phase) Ask dealer to install staged heat strips and specify in proposal.

6 - Continue to use current 4 ton central A/C until it dies. Not necessary to replace at this juncture.

7 - Discuss lock out temperatures with installer to ensure proper energy usage.

Some additional comments/concerns:

@tigerdunes - in response to your last post, we are running emergency heat strip intermittently for heat. I have been turning the fan on upstairs to draw heat from the first floor furnace to keep temperature comfortable on second floor (around 68F) Thankfully, there hasn't been a need to keep emergency heat on constantly.

@tigerdunes - thank you for suggesting additional equipment. In your opinion, is the incremental cost of the two-stage Infinity 25HNB636A003 (proposal #1) worth the investment vs. the lower priced systems you suggested? I'm trying to make the best cost/benefit decision since we do not have any plans to move from this home. If it were your home, what equipment would you choose?

@mike_home - you noted early on that the proposal pricing for #1 seemed high @ approx $7K. Is there a price range that is more reasonsable for a 3 ton system provided everything else remained constant - same backup heat, infinity controller, using existing lineset? What about a 2.5 ton system? (i.e. $5-6K for 2.5 system is fair, an additional $500-$800 for a 3 ton system, etc)

@mike_home - you recommended getting a 4 inch media filter. Dealer proposed upgrade to a Aprilaire 2210/2410 Air Cleaner for $300. Is this worth the additional investment or do you have another suggestion?

@ryanhughes/tigerdunes/all - you indicated the existing VP 8320s could be reprogrammed and used. Since they are full touch screen models that appear superior to the SYSTXCCUID01-V Infinity controller proposed which isn't a touchscreen, I was curious to the advantages of replacing vs. using the existing ? What are the drawbacks? I'm very pragmatic about changing my filters every 3 months so I don't need a controller telling me to do so if that's the only advantage.

@ALL - Should I only pursue Carrier dealers at this juncture for quotes on equipment? Since I have multi-speed Carrier 59TP5 Performance Series 95 gas furnace, I am assuming you all are recommending that I do not pursue Trane/Lennox or another manufacturer as it would create a mismatched system? This was the one point I didn't hear a lot of feedback on other than the Trane having true electronic demand defrost.

Again, MANY THANKS to all of you for the invaluable advice.

am331,

I am responding the questions you directed to me:

1. When I first looked at your prices I saw $8300 as the quote. I did not subtract the $900 rebate. I think it is within range of what you could expect. It is always hard to advise people on pricing without know how much additional work has to be done. The best way is to get additional quotes from other contractors for the same equipment.

2. I don't own an Aprilaire air cleaner, but from what I have read it is a good 4 inch media filter set up.

If you have several Carrier dealers in your area, then one strategy is to get quotes from on the same equipment. You begin to confuse yourself if you get quotes on different manufacturer's equipment. This is the method I used and it worked for me.

AM

Please keep all posts in one thread.

Understand that my other system suggestions were for a single stage in the 2 1/2 ton, a two stage for the three ton suggestion.

The pricing in option 1 was reasonable. You will have to decide if Option 1 is worth it once you receive the other quotes for comparison purposes.

Not my intent to trample on your remarks to Ryan. But I will say it straight out. It is dumb not to use the Infinity Controller on an Infinity system. I don't care if your existing stat is brand new or 5 yrs old. That is a shortcut I would not take. And on the two systems I suggested, I would want the Carrier thermidistat especially for your location and an upstairs system. This will give you good dehumidification for AC cooling, a feature your existing stat does not offer. Won't say anymore on that subject.

For downstairs condenser, I would want a matching Carrier coil and Carrier AC condenser. It does not matter about the brand on the upstairs system. I see nothing wrong with a Trane or AmStd for upstairs system. Your call though.

I like the idea of the pre wired staged 9 KW heat strip that Carrier use to carry. This comes on in 3 KW increments as demand dictates. Might be a tad light for a 3 ton system. Discuss with dealer.

IMO

This post was edited by tigerdunes on Tue, Apr 9, 13 at 15:02

Tigerdunes and Mike_Home,

Thanks for your response. Apologize for creating another post but I didn't see a response from you so assumed I dropped off your radars.

I am certainly armed with enough information to make an informed decision. Thanks again for your help.