The furnance is only 80% and dont really see a need for a 90 or better because my normal natural gas bill for 3 winter months is less than 60$ that also includes water heating and fireplace. Summer time its less than 20$ for water heating. so only like 40$ for heating for the winter months that last only 3 months.

I think you should get a couple more bids.
Rather than paying Lowes or HD or Sears a price
added to the cost of the system, see what
hvac companies charge.

ask for a load calculation for sizing the system for
your house, rather than 500 sq ft per ton rule of
thumb sizing.

always better to have other bids to compare
prices to.

ask for 15-17 SEER prices also. I find paybacks
long for 18-20 SEER without much added benefit.

best of luck.

other quote Lennox Seer 21 system
Lennox SL280 Furnance
Lennox XC21
Lennox HC10 Filter system
I-comfort thermostat
Price was 11995

lennox seer 18 10000
lennox seer 16 9000

I would want to see all model numbers, furnace, evap coil, and condenser.

I would never ever recommend purchasing HVAC through a big box store.

What thermostat was quoted? I would want a true two stage thermostat that controls heat staging based on need, not a timer on control board that will leave you on high stage all the time whether needed or not.

The XL16i has a poor reputation for AC dehumidification. If humidity is not a big issue for your location/climate in the summer, then not a big deal.

How many returns do you have? If just one, then I would leave that return alone and add another in a strategic location for increased airflow and better comfort.

BTW, what are you doing about a whole house filter cabinet? If you don't have one, I would add one.

California is expensive for HVAC just like everything.

IMO

didn't realize that about 16i tiger dunes.
glad you chimed in.
isn't trane's seer rating one less than on equipment.
ie..18 seer is actually 17 seer etc?

OP, take your time on this choice, it will
effect your comfort for a long long time.

best of luck.

If you are not in the high desert you should consider a Heat Pump. In either case the 16i is a great choice.......however the 20i would be my choice especially with the better rebate. One of the requirements of the Lowe's program is that a Manual J load calculation be done, was it? If your ducting is flex, that new 18" will be undersized for 1600cfm (4 tons). I would also recommend a second return air inlet in the master suite.

Unless the homeowner is in an all electric situation, heat pumps are never recommended for California due to their expensive and sometimes bizarre tiered electric rates. Nat gas furnace with high eff AC condensers are the preferred conventional HVAC residential system.

And again, do not use or purchase HVAC through big box stores and that includes Lowes.

IMO

Why would you not want to buy from Lowe's, Please explain? As far as Nat. gas vs HP I think that would depend on the winter design conditions in the OP's area.

for me, the reasons I an anti Lowe's Home Depot & Sears are these.

they sub out the job to local contractor.

they charge an add on fee on top of cost of equipment & install.

local contractor that works for them in my area are
third rate companies that can't make it on their own.

some of the worst installs...oversized systems,
hacked installs, poorly installed, high leakage ductwork
& return airs..have been in homes that I've been called
to for problems. again locally.

their load calcs are an absolute joke.

homeowers expecting lowes, hd or sears to provide any
backup as to issues with the installs & systems get little
satisfaction. lowes, hd or sears puts the issue right back
on contractor who gets fed up when quality/performance/
install is questioned. turns into a huge clusterplus.

the only benefit I can imagine that people gain might
be the fianincing, because they sure don't offer much
customer satisfaction service or do much to resolve
anything.

search the forum for threads on these company installs.
you won't get them all because some were not titled with
hd lowes or sears in title of thread.

just my.02

At least as far as Lowe's you are WAY off base. My company has the # 1 and 2 stores in Arizona sales and we are far from being a third rate company.

We carry a 99% customer satisfaction rating and 100% referral rating with Trane. This is a no BS number as the consumer is surveyed by a third party when the system is registered with Trane. We registered over 400 with Trane last year.

As far as duct leakage is concerned, we do a duct blaster and duct seal on every retro we do. We are a BPI accredited company with nine certified BA's and two manufactured Housing certified on staff. We are also an ACCA Energy Star 3.0 accredited company for new construction. We were the eighth in the country to get this accreditation.

When it comes to our load calcs. Two from my company including myself just returned from from Arlington, Virginia
where we spent a week with Hank Rutkowski ( the author of Manual J,D,S,T,RS,P,ZR and many more)to become certified ACCA instructors of his Manuals.

We do all the estimating and loads on EVERY job we sell. All of our people have to pass background checks and NO subcontractors are allowed on any of there jobs unless they have also gone through the same checks.

We are a Gold Circle NATE company ( I carry nine certs including Senior tech/Analyst ), and NCI air balance and combustion/CO certified .

When you deal with Lowes, Trane and my company you have the backing of all three. Does it cost more? Not always!

It sounds like you are doing all the right things as an HVAC contractor and have many satisfied customers. You are the exception to the general rule about hiring an HVAC contractor through a big box store.

My question is there any advantage of hiring your company through Lowes versus hiring you directly? You stated it does not always cost more to go through Lowes. Can you give an instance when it would cost the same or less?

you'll note that I wrote "in my area", and "locally".
not nationwide.

lots of issues with BPI & ACCA from what I read.
so I can't say I'm impressed.
http://www.energyvanguard.com/blog-building-science-HERS-BPI/bid/59269/acca-vs-bpithe-brouhaha-over-home-energy-audit-standards?source=Blog_Email_

I can tell you that locally...in my area there are
NO national comfort inst. hvac contractors. none.
once NCI came to town, the local contractors looked
for ways to short circut the process. NONE joined.

"We are a Gold Circle NATE company ( I carry nine certs including Senior tech/Analyst ), and NCI air balance and combustion/CO certified ."

sounds like the exception rather than the norm.

again in my opinion & experience.
and btw..I answered honestly, knowing you were
just waiting to jump. at least be upfront next time.

it makes for better conversation rather than
the bait & jump scenerio. and conversation &
exchange of information is what these forums
are about.
having no dog in this fight (IE not a home depot or lowes contractor) my posts are based on my experiences in the field, for jobs I independently inspect test & verify for homeowners.

best of luck.

"lots of issues with BPI & ACCA from what I read.
so I can't say I'm impressed.
http://www.energyvanguard.com/blog-building-science-HERS-BPI/bid/59269 /acca-vs-bpithe-brouhaha-over-home-energy-audit-standards?source=Blog_ Email_"

I too am a follower of Alison's Blog and found it extremely interesting and true. Just goes to show why some contractors don't want to jump in. Heck, Dr Joe just made comments about why the need of HERS and Resnet contractors checking up on the HVAC contractors!

LOL, I know that will get a comment.
We both know much of the HVAC work that is done is terrible, I make a living on repairing it.

I was just trying to say all Lowe's jobs aren't junk, in fact I think most are just the opposite!

And I was really questioning tigerdunes responsees .

"My question is there any advantage of hiring your company through Lowes versus hiring you directly? You stated it does not always cost more to go through Lowes. Can you give an instance when it would cost the same or less?"

Sure can. Trane has some very good rebates or low interest loans on select high eff equipment right now. But it is either or. Trane will allow us to use both the rebates(Trane) and Lowe's 5.99 for 84 months for Lowe's
customers. There is a cost for our leads through Lowe's but we have no advertising costs or credit card costs or 0 bad debt costs for there jobs, so there is very little add on cost for the consumer.
Lowe's also will give veterans 10% off there job.

And at the end of the day the job is backed by Lowe's, Trane and my company. I am paid by Trane on all Lowe's jobs, in my 42 years in this trade I have never had this type of relationship. All Lowe's/Trane HVAC installers are Trane Comfort Specilist Contractor's, truly the best of the best.

Lowes has been the cheapest by about $100-300 due to the fact that i get a 10% off military discount. And there contractor has great reviews and is a very nice guy. plus only one that doesn't want to cut rafters in my attic to install a larger pipe on return so he said he will just do a 2nd one with a 8-12 inch pipe depending on testing he needs to do for load balance or something like that for same price as a larger pipe. plus my roof wont lose any integrity if they cut out part of the rafters in a section which is a good thing by me.

What system would you recomend,
Trane xl20i vs lennox xc21?

SOUTHERN California prices are ridiculous all places near me charge a arm and a leg have got 7 quotes so far. even had a dude from other city's. looking like 12,000 for a complete system either trane or lennox top of the line 4 ton variable speed.

This post was edited by kbr0125 on Mon, Apr 15, 13 at 21:48

The Trane 20i has a 50%/100% capacity, I'm not sure about the Lennox but if it uses an unloading scroll it will have a 70%/100 capacity ( the 70% in reality is more like 80%). IMHO the Trane 20i is hard to beat.

welcome to the forum Jim, big second day here
for you isn't it?

glad you got more bids OP & hope all goes
well with your job.

Best of luck.

"welcome to the forum Jim, big second day here
for you isn't it? "

LOL Yes it is. By the way ACCA emailed a letter to all its members today about the BPI issue, trying diffuse the issue a little.
PS i have been around some of the other sites for awhile, and I think you should reconsider you view on Aeroseal! LOL

Never intended for this thread to be hijacked by the debate over pros/cons of purchasing HVAC from big box stores. Obviously there are different opinions.

If y'all would like to continue this discussion, then start a new thread. I don't think this serves the OP though.

I prefer Trane over Lennox. However the XL20i is pricey and unless your area/climate has high humidity in the summer, the XL16i would be just fine. And Trane's XL15i and XR15 AC condensers are very nice single stage condensers. I do believe you should get pricing on Carrier or Bryant system.

IMO