What size is upstairs living area?

What size are you replacing?

Not the best choice air handler size. I would want the 005. See below.

5477866 Active Systems INFINITY 16 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HNB636A**31 FE4AN(B,F)005+UI 36400 13.00 17.00 35400 9.00 22600 1 HRCU-A-CB

Carrier is good equipment. I don't know where you are picking up the negative comment. The only thing that I don't care for with Carrier pumps are the timed defrost which is a cheap feature compared to electronic demand defrost which you see on Trane, AmStd, Rudd, Rheem.

What size heat strip was proposed?

IMO

Many many thanks for a quick response.

I would guess upstairs is 1600 sq feet.
The current Trane is 2.5 tons HP and 3.0 tons air handler.
'heat trip' ? these words were not mentioned. Please explain what it is.
They recommended Carrier because they say that since Trane was being bought out by (??) five years ago... Trane has some issues .. that is why they recommended Carrier. We prefer Trane because we really like the unit we're having. It is basically problem-free for the past 20+ years. Should we go with Trane instead of Carrier?
Many thanks.

I have no idea what 'FC-2601C10' is and it is on the contract. I googled it and this came up: Tutco 81-0460-00 Heat Strip Kit 7.4 / 9.8 kw Model FC-2601C10 - So is this the 'Heat Strip' you've asked?

many thanks.

I don't like the idea of going up in size from a 2 1/2 ton Sgl stage to a 3 ton two stage. Has dealer inspected ductwork to see if 3 ton can handle extra CFMs? Probably not.

Any problem heating and cooling upstairs with old system?

I believe that you were quoted a 10 KW heat strip.

Your dealer is blowing smoke about Trane!

IMO

"Your dealer is blowing smoke about Trane!"

Agreed. Trane makes quality HVAC equipment built to last.

Also agree on sizing. Who is to say that 2.5 tons was properly sized to begin with if no load calculation was done? A two-stage 3 ton system using the "unloading" scroll compressor (which most do) is going to be around 75-80% capacity on low stage, so you are already close to 2.4 tons on low stage. Two-stage units work great when they are sized properly. But 3 tons for 1600 square feet sounds certainly oversized. If it isn't, there are other issues that need to be addressed first. It is true that two-stage units come in full-ton sizes only; however a load calculation should be done prior to installing new equipment, especially if going up in size. Ductwork, as mentioned, needs to be addressed.

No - He did not inspect ductwork :( - He said the reason why he recommended 3 ton because it is 'two stage' or because the air handler is variable speed (I could not remember which one he said but I did ask why 3 ton) -

If it were you - would you go with Carrier or Trane? If Trane please give specific models of what I should look for.

Many thanks

'Any problem heating and cooling upstairs with old system? '

Sorry I missed this question.
It was a little noisy and the master bedroom (which is twice the size the other rooms) was way too cold compared to the other three smaller rooms.
I just got an appointment with a Trane dealer - He'll be here in 1 hour - any advice is greatly appreciated.

many thanks

Trane XR16 or XL16i with matching TAM7 air handler.

The XL20i is also a very nice 2-stage system, although more expensive, and would have a capacity split of around 1.5 ton/3 ton on low/high stage. The ComfortLink II communicating system is great in terms of the level of control it provides over the system and overall comfort.

I would talk to the dealer about the XR16/XL16i (very similar) as well as the XL20i. The XR15 and XL15i are great single stage units as well.

Focus should be on getting properly sized equipment and addressing any ductwork issues. Ask your dealer about running a Manual J load calculation and size/condition of your ductwork.

Good luck, please keep us posted.

Trane XR16 or XL16i with matching TAM7 air handler would be Trane's 2-stage scroll models.

The XL20i is also a very nice 2-stage system, although more expensive, and would have a capacity split of around 1.5 ton/3 ton on low/high stage. The ComfortLink II communicating system is great in terms of the level of control it provides over the system and overall comfort.

I would talk to the dealer about the XR16/XL16i (very similar) as well as the XL20i. The XR15 and XL15i are great single stage units as well.

Focus should be on getting properly sized equipment and addressing any ductwork issues. Ask your dealer about running a Manual J load calculation and size/condition of your ductwork.

Good luck, please keep us posted.

This post was edited by ryanhughes on Thu, Apr 25, 13 at 15:09

Ask Trane dealer specifically what he would do to improve comfort to master bedroom. Probably add another supply or enlarge existing supply.

How do you filter return air on upstairs system?

How many returns do you have?

Ask Trane dealer if he will perform a load calculation.

IMO

For the master bedroom:

I assume it is usually closed off. Are the comfort issues when this is the case?

If so, are the doors undercut, and is there a return in the master bedroom?

It could very well need more supply air (he will need to determine that by actually running a load calc), but I suspect much of the issue may be associated with a lack of return air. Air will flow from positive to negative pressure. If you lack an adequate return path for the air back to the system, the room will not condition very well even with properly sized supplies.

I agree with Ryan about returns but size and number of supply runs to master bedroom should be looked at especially since you mentioned it is significantly larger. Shouldn't be a big issue to solve and improve with some initiative from a good dealer.

IMO

Many thanks - you guys are greater than great :) - All of these are new to me as of 2 days ago! and today .. I feel like I'm a pro .. a pro with a headache because I have to concentrate so much :) -
The master bedroom has an 8X8 return in the sitting room (as you open the door - look up - it is right there) - the Carrier dealer said he'll make it into a 14X14 one. There's also a 20X20 in the hallway - He'll put the filters in for both returns so we won't have to get up to the attic to change the filter.
I've written down all specifics to ask the dealer.
Chao for now - grazie!

1 Supply in MBR? How bout the size run?

I'm back with .. a bigger headache and more grey hair!
Just got the estimate from the Trane dealer - this is all he provided in the e-mail:
" I find that the Return, or intake Air Ducting and Return Air Grill in the Master Bedroom need to be increased in size for us to install a 3 ton system. So that being said, I would offer to install a new Trane Heatpump system 15 seer Standard or midline system for $ 7632.00. Upgrade to a 16 seer 2 stage Heat Pump, the installed Price would be $9716.00"

I did e-mail him and asked for specific model numbers - waiting for his response.

So for what we can afford - it looks like we can either go with 2-stage Carrier Infinity 16.0 SEER or 1-stageTrane 15 SEER.

If you have to make decision between the two - which one would you have installed in your house?

These are my specific questions for the Carrier:

1. How important is it to ask for the '.005' air handler you recommended. Would appreciate if you can elaborate on why you recommend it.

2. You said: " The only thing that I don't care for with Carrier pumps are the timed defrost which is a cheap feature compared to electronic demand defrost which you see on Trane, AmStd, Rudd, Rheem." ... What kind of problems down the road I should expect with Carrier timed defrost feature?

3. FYI - I will buy the 10 yr labor guarantee so for 10 years part and labor will be covered.

For Trane - unfortunately I do not have any specific info of what being offered! - except that we would prefer to have Trane because we too believe in what Ryan said: "Agreed. Trane makes quality HVAC equipment built to last."

Many thanks.

I've asked the Carrier dealer for the estimate for the Trane. He only offered Trane 13 SEER - He would not do Trane 15 or 16 SEER for my house because of the space for the air handler - This is what he offered for Trane 13 SEER for the price 6,000.00:

Heat punp: 4TWB3030C1000A
Air handler: TGAF2A0A30S21SA
AUX HT: 10kw
Thermostat: TCONT602 Programmable

Besides being a reliable system and adequately heat/cool the upstairs (1,600 'sq ft)' - my only 'requirement' for the new system is for it to be quite. Do you think the Trane 13 SEER will do that?

Still waiting for the model numbers from the Train dealer!

Many many thanks.

Call another Trane or AmStd dealer. I suspect he is trying to steer you. The quote he gave you is nonsense.

Nothing wrong with the Infinity quote as long as ductwork can handle the extra CFMs. Has any effort been made by Carrier dealer to inspect ductwork-both supply and return?

I think you would be doing yourself a disservice not getting a quote on a 2 1/2 ton Trane XR15 or AmStd Heritage 15 paired with best size var speed air handler.

And as I said previously, why did dealer quote you the wrong size air handler? If this is a physical size issue, then get the dimensions of the 002,003,005.

The 005 air handler gives you the best combination of performance/efficiency numbers.

Time defrost is a cheap feature compared to electronic demand defrost. EDD eliminates/reduces unnecessary, nuisance, and expensive defrost calls compared to time defrost. Then there is the issue of extra wear and tear on reversing valve.

IMO

This post was edited by tigerdunes on Fri, Apr 26, 13 at 15:12

'I think you would be doing yourself a disservice not getting a quote on a 2 1/2 ton Trane XR15 or AmStd Heritage 15 paired with best size var speed air handler.'

OK.. I've heard you. Just made 2 apts for AmStd and 1 apt for Trane. Please give the best size var speed air handler model numbers you recommend for both brands so I can ask for it.

"And as I said previously, why did dealer quote you the wrong size air handler? If this is a physical size issue, then get the dimensions of the 002,003,005."

I think I know the whole picture now - this guy did not want to install Trane because of the space problem for the air handler - But instead of saying that he said he recommended Carrier because he has issues with Trane! and he's willing to give me the wrong size air handler just to get the business!

The more I talked to you the more I do not trust the Carrier dealer .. so he's out. I do not like Carrier because of the timed defrost feature that you mentioned as well. So now I will only concentrate on Trane and AmStd.

We apparently have an issue with the space for the air handler. The 1st guy who came out literally ran away .. He said that unless he'll find something that would fit, he doesn't see how a new system could be installed ! and he never contacted us back.

- would you recommend Lennox?

Many many thanks for your time and knowledge.
Will be back after the apts.
Have a wonderful weekend.

Hello again,

Per your advise - The numbers are in for Trane and AmStd.

Trane 2 1/2 ton XLi15 - 7660.00 if pay by cash/check.
- TAM7AOB30H21SB
- 4TWX5030
- TBAYEVBC15BK1AA - (15 kw I was told)
- programmable tstat
- duct modifications due to limited space in attic

AmStd 2 1/2 Heritage 15 - 6076.00 if pay by cash/check
- AAM7AO30
-4R6H5030
-10KW
-Programmable tstat
- no duct modifications were mentioned in contract

Please advise which one should we go with - we are comfortable with both installers - we'd prefer Trane but the dif in price is 1584.00. - are there significant differences between these two?
What is the difference between 15 kw and 10 kw? Quietness especially for the air handler is a must for us since it is sitting in the attic.

Many thanks.

Except for the size of the heat strip, the systems are basically identical.

Heat strips are the electric resistance heat used for supplemental, defrost calls, and emergency heat. They are always sized in KW. Each KW yields about 3400 BTUs. You don't need more than 10 KW. Any idea of the existing size? You definitely have one!

This was a phone quote, site has not been surveyed?

The AmStd quote is just fine as long as you are comfortable with the dealer. He should be an authorized dealer. And the air handler quoted would be very quiet especially when compared to your old air handler. I would want HW Mdl 8321 thermostat.

Unless there is a physical dimension issue, I would want the TAM7 036 air handler. See performance/efficiency numbers below.

5198252 Active Systems HERITAGE 15 AMERICAN STANDARD, INC. 4A6H5030G1 *AM7A0C36H31 32200 13.00 16.00 30000 9.00 18700 1 HRCU-A-CB 244 646 Yes

IMO

This post was edited by tigerdunes on Sun, Apr 28, 13 at 13:29

Many thanks for helping out on a Sunday like this.

'This was a phone quote, site has not been surveyed?'

They both came here - both went up to the attic and outside - We found both dealers from Checkbook and feel very comfortable with them. Both do not want any down payment. Just pay when the job is complete.

Per your comments we will go with AmStd. I will ask for the TAM7 036 air handler - if you don't mind - please elaborate on the differences between the two - I'm sorry I do not understand what those performance/efficiency numbers mean.

Also please tell why you recommend HW Mdl 8321 thermostat.

Many thanks.

Sagelee

I am picky!

I hardly ever recommend something I would not have myself. I follow the numbers.

AHRI, so called HVAC authority, rates all systems giving both performance and efficiency numbers. Since you are looking at heat pumps, performance numbers refers to BTUs both cooling and heating. Efficiency refers to SEER, EER, and HSPF efficiency numbers. Without getting down in the weeds, SEER and EER are related to cooling and HSPF plus COP are related to heating. Trust me the AmStd Heritage 15 with var speed air handler is one of the best Sgl stage HPs in the residential market.

The 036 air handler has a larger coil, therefore slightly better numbers. As long as there is not a physical measurement issue, don't allow dealer to charge you more. A good dealer would never lose an order over something so inconsequential. See below.

Ht x W x D. Weight

TAM7A0B30H21SA 30,000 55.7 21.3 21.8 150
TAM7A0C36H31SA 36,000 56.9 23.5 21.8 157

Add the 10 KW heat strip and HW MDL 8321 thermostat.

If you have any hot/cold spots in upstairs, now is the time to point out to dealer for improvement.

5021984 Active Systems HERITAGE 15 AMERICAN STANDARD, INC. 4A6H5030G1 *AM7A0B30H21 31600 12.50 15.00 30000 9.00 18900 1 HRCU-A-CB Yes 255 646 Yes

5198252 Active Systems HERITAGE 15 AMERICAN STANDARD, INC. 4A6H5030G1 *AM7A0C36H31 32200 13.00 16.00 30000 9.00 18700 1 HRCU-A-CB 244 646 Yes

Good Luck!

I know you are 'picky' and I sincerely appreciate that.

"If you have any hot/cold spots in upstairs, now is the time to point out to dealer for improvement."

He recommended once the new system is installed - he'll adjust the damper first to see if we are happy with the results - If not then he'll recommend to possibly make the return in our bed room bigger.

I googled on HW MDL 8321 tstat to educate myself and I found one of your posts posted on 02-11-11

"you indicated you live in Northern Va/DC area. as most know, summers there have high humidity. If this is even a concern as far as comfort in the summer and using AC, I would recommend in the following order.

1.HW Vision Pro IAQ that can be wired for DOD-"dehumidify on demand"

2.HW Mdl 8321 that has humidity feature and overcooling.

I don't like the idea of purchasing a nice HP system and then taking a shortcut on the thermostat. And I don't recommend cheap big box store thermostats."

May I ask what do the 'humidity and overcooling' features do?

Coincidentally I do live in the Washington DC area so this is a very valuable advise.

Many thanks.

Tiger has advised you well so I don't have too much further to add.

I also am quite certain 10 kW is plenty and hate to see oversized heater packages installed.

The 036 air handler will give you the better numbers and is the way to go if feasible. Larger coil as stated and, stronger blower motor. With either option airflow will need to be set properly via the dipswitches on the control board to best match your application and size. I like to stress this point as much as possible as many times you'll find things left at the default, incorrect setting. Two things I can think of that might make the 030 more attractive are, possibly, narrower cabinet due to physical access limitations and more common filter size (20x20x1) -- though dealer may be better off adding 5" media filter or creating an external, simple to use 1" filter rack instead.

How do you filter your return air? A 1" filter at the unit or at return grille(s)?

The thermostats listed above are good for humidity control in the summer. The 8321 can overcool by 1-3 deg as selected by installer to lower indoor %RH. The IAQ is preferred in that it can signal the variable speed blower to reduce speed to 80% of set cooling speed. This lowers the coil temperature and removes more moisture. Works very well with the Trane Hyperions with their electronic metering devices (the EEV). This of course requires the installer to configure the thermostat to do so. Ask your dealer about this feature.

I am in the same area as you (MD) and think either the Trane or American Standard 15 SEER heat pump with TAM7 indoor unit would be a great combination. Trane makes an excellent product, and the demand defrost is also very good to have in our area. Eliminates many unnecessary defrost cycles. Better for the equipment and efficiency. Go with the dealer you feel most comfortable with. There are many to choose from in our area. Some oustanding, many good, and others to stay away from altogether. Good luck.

This post was edited by ryanhughes on Sun, Apr 28, 13 at 18:34

I know you are 'picky' and I sincerely appreciate that.

"If you have any hot/cold spots in upstairs, now is the time to point out to dealer for improvement."

He recommended once the new system is installed - he'll adjust the damper first to see if we are happy with the results - If not then he'll recommend to possibly make the return in our bed room bigger.

I googled on HW MDL 8321 tstat to educate myself and I found one of your posts posted on 02-11-11

"you indicated you live in Northern Va/DC area. as most know, summers there have high humidity. If this is even a concern as far as comfort in the summer and using AC, I would recommend in the following order.

1.HW Vision Pro IAQ that can be wired for DOD-"dehumidify on demand"

2.HW Mdl 8321 that has humidity feature and overcooling.

I don't like the idea of purchasing a nice HP system and then taking a shortcut on the thermostat. And I don't recommend cheap big box store thermostats."

May I ask what do the 'humidity and overcooling' features do?

Coincidentally I do live in the Washington DC area so this is a very valuable advise.

Many thanks.

Sagelee

Good post by Ryan which I appreciate and agree.

As I understand, the MBR is an issue. B4 closing on the deal, I suggest discussing further with the AmStd dealer. I would think both enlarging the bedroom return run plus adding another supply to the room as opposed to enlarging existing.

You obviously do your research which I appreciate and certainly understand.

The HW Mdl #8321 handles humidity in AC cooling mode through overcooling. The HW VP IAQ thermostat handles humidity independently from thermostat setting. I realize this can be confusing. For example, thermostat setting in AC cooling is satisfied. However, inside humidity is higher than humidity setting. AC will activate in low speed var speed blower until humidity is reduced to setting. A nice feature if humidity control in AC cooling is important to you and your family's comfort for upstairs system.

I do prefer the 4-5" pleated filter media cabinet that last up to one year as opposed to several 1" filters that have to be replaced multiple times throughout the year. You will have to decide the benefit versus the cost.

What more can I say?

IMO

'You obviously do your research which I appreciate and certainly understand.'

I try .. I try .. try not to be a big burden to you. I know I'm a burden.. just try to keep it as tiny as possible... glad you've noticed :)

'What more can I say?'

since you've asked :)

Reviews for AmStd in Furnacecompare are mostly negative! is the mold problem mentioned here related to being in different regions in this country or possibly a faulty installation? your input would be greatly appreciated.

http://www.furnacecompare.com/heat-pumps/american-standard/reviews/3/
"Installers just left our house. They cleaned our units and politely informed us that we had a mold problem. We needed to purchase the uv light units to kill the mold. They would cost $500 each and we needed two of them and the lights needed replaced every two years and they cost $100 each.wow, what a nice surprise since my wife has been complaining of an upper respiratory ailment for the last month. We were fed a story that these new, top of the line units were so efficient that they ran slower and more humidity was extracted from the air and more moisture built up inside them than in the cheaper units. This of course led to the mold problem. I wish I had seen these reviews prior to our purchase and I hope that I can spare someone else from getting urned. We were told by our installers that these units were the best out there and they were the absolute top of the line. From what I am reading and from our experience, I don't think so!!!!!!!"

" I AM A CONTRACTOR IN SOUTH CENTRAL TEXAS . I INSTALLED AN 18 SEER HEAT PUMP SYSTEM IN MY HOUSE IN 2006 AND CHANGED IT OUT IN 2010 . I HAD AN ACCU-CLEAN AIR FILTER SYSTEM ON IT WITH A GUARDIAN UV LIGHT (AROUND 1500.00) INSTALLED WITH THE SYSTEM AND WHEN I OPENED UP THE AIR HANDLER , I FOUND A LARGE AMOUNT OF MOLD IN THERE . MAYBE THAT WAS WHY MY WIFE HAD CONSTANT HEADACHES IN THE HOUSE OR WHY MY 9 NINE YEAR OLD WAS ALWAYS SNEEZING . I TAKE NOTE OF OTHER SYSTEMS I WORK ON AND AMERICAN STANDARD/TRANE UNITS SEEM TO BE THE WORST I HAVE SEEN . PLEASE DO YOUR RESEARCH ON YOUR EQUIPMENT AND PLEASE DOUBLE YOUR RESEARCH ON YOUR CONTRACTOR . HE MAKES MORE OF A DIFFERENCE THAN ANY BRAND OR PIECE OF EQUIPMENT . GOOD LUCK AND GOD BLESS"

"possibly a faulty installation?"

Yes for most all of these online negative reviews.

This post was edited by ryanhughes on Sun, Apr 28, 13 at 21:39

I just remember something -

In one of the your posts you've mentioned if there are lots of trees the Trane XLi 15 would be the excellent choice - We a have very big oak tree right above these A/C units - there are lots of leaves falling and the current Trane units have never given us any leave-related problems. Can the AmStd handle when there are lots of small leaves falling on it? and I'd really appreciate if you can elaborate on the mold issue.

Many thanks.

I just remember something -

In one of the your posts you've mentioned if there are lots of trees the Trane XLi 15 would be the excellent choice - We a have very big oak tree right above these A/C units - there are lots of leaves falling and the current Trane units have never given us any leave-related problems. Can the AmStd handle when there are lots of small leaves falling on it? and I'd really appreciate if you can elaborate on the mold issue.

Many thanks.

Hi TD,

'I do prefer the 4-5" pleated filter media cabinet that last up to one year as opposed to several 1" filters that have to be replaced multiple times throughout the year. You will have to decide the benefit versus the cost.'

Now I know what a filter media cabinet looks like and where it is attached in the system - I also know it has a MERV number and it costs 40.00 - 50.00. And these are all I know!

It is getting late and I need to get the contract signed tomorrow and hopefully I can have the HP installed this Friday. Friday is the latest due to my circumstances! Please tell me exactly what I have to tell the dealer to get the proper filter media cabinet entered onto the contract for the AmStd Heritage 15 and the AAM7AO30 (can't have the 36 due to space problem). How much do I expect for the additional installation charge for this? 4 or 5 inches? MERV #? any specific size ?

Sorry I do not have enough time to do a better homework! I do feel like I don't know what I'm talking about yet!

Thanks so much for your patience and time.

Goodnight!

Sagelee

It would seem that a dose of buyer's remorse is kicking in before the deal is even closed.

If you are sized correctly and don't have mold issues now, it is unlikely you would have this issue in the future and definitely not from the HVAC. As Ryan recommended, default setting on dips switches at air handler should be thoroughly checked. No higher than 400 CFMs/ton is my recommendation.

I prefer the media cabinets simply because it usually is one time a year event. However, easy access is key. I assume someone would need to go to attic for changeout. You must weigh this against the 1" filters you must replace multiple times during the year.

I do think the master bedroom issue should be addressed now, not in the future.

Can't recall because of the length of this thread. Does dealer plan on new lineset or reusing old and flushing? If reusing old and flushing, size should be checked and verified as to AmStd specification. Close does not count!

As far as the XL15i condensers, only Trane offers a line of condensers that have proprietary tops. They help as far as debris but certainly not foolproof. Locate the condenser to place with least amount of falling tree debris. This is usually not practical though.

Research is fine but there comes a time when there is TMI. You have reached that point.

IMO

'It would seem that a dose of buyer's remorse is kicking in before the deal is even closed.'

I thought this only happens at wedding ceremonies - LOL.

'Research is fine but there comes a time when there is TMI. You have reached that point.'

This shows I've done enough homework :)

I can't thank YOU and Ryan enough for helping me out in this issue - Now I know for certain that we get the best HP out there for our house. We will try to get the contract signed today and the dealer has already put us down for this Friday's installation ... yipeeeeeeeee :)

It has been a tough week for me trying to learn something totally new with a time constraint and many other things going on at the same time. I only wish that I'd discovered you guys much sooner- especially Ryan since he lives near me - it would have helped tremendously in choosing the best contractor in this area. Now I can focus on the ongoing project which is hosting 60 people at my house for my mom's centennial celebration in 3 wks :) -

Deeply appreciate it and my hat's off to your patience - your expertise and your time.