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Replacing a 20 year old Trane Unit 2.5 ton

Posted by Curtis321 (My Page) on
Fri, Apr 26, 13 at 7:50

Hello,

I am looking to replace a current 2.5 ton AC, Coil, and Furnace:

My old equipment is as follows:

AC: (Old 10 SEER)
Trane XE 1000
21C930620P01
TTR030C100A1
H21258062

FURNACE:
TRANE XE 78/60,000 BTU
TUD060C936A1
H11503394

AIR HANDLER:
HEATCRAFT
HA02230D1
45B120500
S/N 93-050

The house is a split foyer with most of the living space (1,600 sq feet) on the top floor and about 800 square feet in the basement which is partially underground. I finished the basement my self and had an AC guy come in 15 year ago and put 2 2X2 supply registers in my drop ceiling in the basement. He put only a 6 inch return in the wall of the basement. The basement normally is cool all year around due to most of it being underground. The only problem is heat in the winter. (The hot air rises) I want to upgrade to a 3 ton AC/furnace combination but did not know if my main 12 inch return plus the 6 inch return for the basement will provide enough airflow. One AC guy said he would change out the 6 inch return and replace it with a 10 inch return for that reason.

I live in the Atlanta Area and have many trees shading our house as well which helps in the summer.

I know with my old system I could here a whistling noise coming from the 12 inch return on the upper level.

Could my system handle an upgrade from a 2.5 ton to 3 ton system? I want a good mid grade TRANE/AM Standard or RHEEM/RUUD system with 13 or 14 seer and a basic quality single speed furnace 80% AFUE and a good eval coil. Also wanting a good Aprilaire media filter model.

Can anyone give me any specific part numbers for the brands I am looking at that would fit my requirements? (AC/COIL/GAS FURNACE). This is a basic house but I would like a good system that could last another 20 years if possible.

I like the KISS Principle and am wanting a simple but reliable system.

Thanks In Advance


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Replacing a 20 year old Trane Unit 2.5 ton

A couple of suggestions and comments.

For Hotlanta you want good dehumidification in summer.

Any problems with 2 1/2 ton AC condenser cooling home in summer?

Whistling noise in ductwork suggests an undersized situation that should be pointed out to dealer for recommendation to improve. I would suspect you need larger supplies in basement for improved comfort. Heating capacity as far as existing furnace would not be the issue.

As far as equipment, on furnaces, I would recommend Trane's 2 stage var speed Mdl XV80. Second would be the Sgl stage XT80 model with high eff blower.

First condenser recommendation would be XR15 and second would be XR13 or XB14. Of course with the best matching Trane evap coil, no third party coil.

If you don't have one already, I would add a pleated filter media cabinet.

Thermostat recommendation would depend on furnace selection. HW VP IAQ fr the XV80, HW MDl #8321 for the XT80 furnace.

That would be my starting point.

IMO

This post was edited by tigerdunes on Fri, Apr 26, 13 at 8:30


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RE: Replacing a 20 year old Trane Unit 2.5 ton

I am looking at the XR13 model and I understand a scroll compressor comes with the 3 ton and above and tranes climatuff compressor for the lesser tonnage. Is one better over the other?
Reliablilty?


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RE: Replacing a 20 year old Trane Unit 2.5 ton

Trane manufactures their own compressors.

Don't be confused by the term Trane Climatuff Compressor. It could be either a scroll or a recip, depending on model and size.

I think most objective dealers would tell you that Trane has one of the best reliability performance as far as compressors in the industry.

I prefer the scroll but would not let that be a deal breaker either way. The scroll has less moving parts and usually is slightly quieter.

IMO


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RE: Replacing a 20 year old Trane Unit 2.5 ton

Would the following American Standard system be equivalent to the XR13/XT80 combination:

AS GOLD SI (Alliegience 13 condensor)
AS Silver XI (Freedom 80) Gas Furnace (Single stage/80%)
AS Coil to match compressor

Thanks
Curtis


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RE: Replacing a 20 year old Trane Unit 2.5 ton

Nice equipment and a relatively simple system.

I would like to see the coil model number, no third party coil. You want the best matching Trane/AmStd coil.

Here is a representative AHRI matching system with performance/eff numbers. Not cutting edge but definitely nice equipment.

5276518 Active Systems ALLEGIANCE 13 AMERICAN STANDARD, INC. 4A7A3030E1 4TXCB004CC3 *UD1B080A9H3 30200 12.00 14.50 1 RCU-A-CB 252

I would not go to 3 ton without a professionally performed load calc in hand.

I would want a pleated filter media cabinet and HW Mdl 8321 thermostat (same as Trane's 803).

Pay attention to my suggestions about ductwork modifications to basement. Discuss with dealer.

The only upgrades that I would suggest would be the AmStd equivalent to the XV80 furnace and the Allegiance 15 AC condenser.

I know this is Atlanta but have you given any thought to a HP condenser?

Just a few thoughts.

IMO


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RE: Replacing a 20 year old Trane Unit 2.5 ton

Thanks for the Info.

One of my neighbors is in the AC business and is going to give me a price on a 2.5 and 3 ton Trane Unit:

The XR13 Condensor
The XT80 Furnace
A matching Trane Coil
Installing an April Aire Media Filter (Some duct board and sheetmetal work is needed due to the Return being so close to the wall)

He is also going to install a new return in my basement as the other one was not doing anything.

A new condensate pump and new thermostat

He is giving me a 1 year labor warranty and I believe I get 10 year parts from Trane

Replace Lineset

What would a good price be for such a system

$4K - $6K??

Thanks


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RE: Replacing a 20 year old Trane Unit 2.5 ton

" Trane XT80 Furnaces and

Posted by Curtis321 (My Page) on Fri, Apr 26, 13 at 14:34

Trane XT80 Furnace Model Numbers have same specs (Which one will fit with my XR13 3 ton compressor). Also what BTU does each put out as I am looking for 70K to 80K BTU furnace
These Trane XT80 furnace model numbers look to have same specs :

TUD1B080A9H31B (Does the 80 relate to the BTUs?) and Cooling CFM relate to Tons as in 3 tons?

Also what evap coil (Part No) should I use with this system if I am
going to have the following:

3 ton XR13 compressor
3 ton XT80 Furnace (Either 60K BTU or 80K BTU to match 3 ton compressor)
Coils (Which model numbers would work best with this setup)

Thanks In advance

--------

The XT80 is an 80% efficiency single stage furnace. It comes both in an 80 KBTU size 63 K output and 60 KBTU size 48 KBTU output, each model with a 3 ton rated blower.

Difficult for me to believe you need a 3 ton condenser. I think a 3 ton is a mistake. You should request a load calc to support that decision. Can't say if the 60 K furnace would be enough BTUs but after all you are in Atlanta. Might be borderline on those extra cold days which I know Atlanta has from time to time.

Dealer should spec best matching evap coil.

I would enlarge both supplies and return in basement.

You want HW mdl 8321 thermostat for best dehumidification in cooling.

Atlanta is a competitive HVAC market and I would expect pricing to be on upper end of your range if not more.

IMO


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RE: Replacing a 20 year old Trane Unit 2.5 ton

My current split foyer house in Atlanta has about 1,600 square feet of living space on the top floor and 800 square feet of living space in the basement.

The old furnace was a Trane XE 78 60K BTU furnace.

Is it Ok to jump to a XT80 80K BTU furnace as we want to be able to warm up the basement more in the winter. We are installing a larger return in the basement.

Did'nt know if the 80K BTU furnace would cause any issues

Thanks


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RE: Replacing a 20 year old Trane Unit 2.5 ton

Well if I am reading correctly your old furnace is an XE78 60 K size with output of about 48 KBTUs. Please confirm. If you didn't ave any problems in the winter, then I would stay with same size in the XT. Keep in mind it takes very little BTUs to heat a basement that is at or partially below grade. I feel your basement issues are ductwork related not furnace related.

IMO


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RE: Replacing a 20 year old Trane Unit 2.5 ton

Thanks for the input.

The house was adequately cooled and heated with the old 2.5 ton AC and 60K BTU 80% Furnace. I always thought that the builder put a lower capacity system in especially since the 800 square foot basement that I finished when I bought the house was not considered when the original AC/Furnace was installed.

The upstairs 1600 square foot living space is adequately cooled and heated except for my kids bedrooms which are over the garage. Their rooms are hotter in the summer and colder in the winter probably due to them being under the garage with little insulation between floors and on the outside walls. Their rooms also have smaller supply registers than our bedroom which has a larger supply. Hence our bedroom is colder and hotter than the other areas of the house. The Thermostat is on the upper level in the hallway and the 12 inch return is in the ceiling by the thermostat.

So the basement has been the main problem area in that although it stays cool during the summer as 1/2 of it is under ground. The heating of the basement in the winter is not adequate. One reason is that the heat rises from my drop ceiling up to the upper floor. Probably no way to correct that part of the equation without spending more money on a small house. We are going to put a larger unrestricted return in the basement and look at the 2 supply registers to see if we can increase the air flow.

I just thought that increasing the AC from 2.5 ton to 3 ton would not make that much difference and might push more cool air into the kids bedrooms in the summer. And in the winter, a larger 80K BTU furnace would increase the warmth in the basement during the winter as well as provide more warm air to the kids bedrooms.

But since the thermostat is upstairs, the system will be coming on and shutting off based on the temp on the upper level.

I can try and get someone to properly size the unit based on a load calculation but I did not want to spend much more money. I could always just replace back to what I had (A 2.5 ton AC and 60K BTU unit). Do you really think that going from a 2.5 ton to 3.0 ton will cause more problems? I did not think that was a big jump from what I already had. Now the furnace is pretty big jump from 60K BTU to 80K BTU.

Thanks for your input


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RE: Replacing a 20 year old Trane Unit 2.5 ton

Any advice on a good reliable Rheem/Ruud system with model numbers (Looking for alternative to Trane/AM Std system due to equip price)

Am looking for a reliable Keep it simple system that has at least a 10 year warranty. (Scroll Compressor) Is X-13 blower motor better than the other PCM motors.

2.5 ton condensor 13 seer
60 - 70K BTU 80% single speed furnace
Compatible coil to raise the seer level to 14 or so,

Thanks In Advance


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RE: Replacing a 20 year old Trane Unit 2.5 ton

Why?

Pricing?

RGPT upflow furnace 80% ECM x-13 motor

4230528 Active Systems RHEEM RAPM SERIES RHEEM MANUFACTURING COMPANY RAPM-030JEZ RCFL-A*3821 RGPT-07?AMK? 30000 13.00 16.00 1 RCU-A-CB 227 Yes

Excellent numbers on AC cooling.

furnace is 75 K with 60 K output, larger than what you have...ie expect higher operating costs...

JAZ suffix on condenser slightly less expensive; the JEZ which I suggest is preferred.

Correct coil Mdl number should be verified with dealer.

Again you would want a filter cabinet and HW Mdl 8321 thermostat.

IMO

This post was edited by tigerdunes on Sun, Apr 28, 13 at 12:30


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RE: Replacing a 20 year old Trane Unit 2.5 ton

Thanks for the Info:

How does this combination sound: (Are these components reliable for the long term considering a good install?)

RANL030JAZ - 2.5 Ton (Scroll Compressor) (RUUD Achiever or Rheem Classic models - mid tier)

RGPN07EAMER - 75K BTU / 3 ton blower /Single Speed 80% AFUE

- Matching Coil (How can I select a good matching coil on my own). It appears that there are many different Coils to select from. Any good model numbers that will go with this AC/Furnace combination.

Thanks In Advance

Th


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RE: Replacing a 20 year old Trane Unit 2.5 ton

Curtis

If not going with a two stage var speed furnace, I want at the very least a single stage furnace with ECM x-13 motor for the higher efficiency on AC cooling.

The RGPT furnace model that I suggested has the x-13, the RGPN you selected does not. I assume you are looking at Rheem's website page. See link below.

The AC condenser I suggested is a nicer model than the RANL.

You should rely on dealer for coil recommendation. I always start though with the model for the application and components that offer the best performance/efficiency numbers for the rated size.

I think I have gone as far as I can reasonably go with best advice.

I will say though that Rudd/ Rheem HVAC is probably one of the most overlooked and underrated brands in the residential market.

Know the brand/model warranty and dealer reputation!

IMO

Here is a link that might be useful: Rheem Gas Furnaces


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RE: Replacing a 20 year old Trane Unit 2.5 ton

Thanks

How reliable are the X-13 ECM Motors? I have read somewhere that they can fail prematurely versus the PCM motors.

Curtis


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RE: Replacing a 20 year old Trane Unit 2.5 ton

I believe you mean PSC motors.

Show me some unbiased and objective data.

Don't bother looking because there is none, just anecdotal stories.

I have an 8 yr old var speed in my Trane furnace. No issues. I would expect same if not better with the x-13.

IMO

This post was edited by tigerdunes on Sun, Apr 28, 13 at 14:15


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RE: Replacing a 20 year old Trane Unit 2.5 ton

Got some new quotes for a 16 seer system which would give me a $300 tax credit:

Are these options reasonable for the price:

Rheem System:
RAPM-030JEZ AC Unit 2.5Ton Unit
RGPT-07EBRQR Furnace
Coil - RCFL-A3621
ARI 5510975
21.5 Inches Wide

$4,100

Trane System:
Trane XB14 2.5 ton unit
Trane XT80 Furnace
Trane Coil
Furnace 17.5 inches wide

$4,080

5 inch media filter addition add $120


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RE: Replacing a 20 year old Trane Unit 2.5 ton

Great prices...

I will check the AHRI matching numbers as soon as the Directory website is back up from maintenance.

What thermostat? I would not accept anything other than HW Mdl 8321.

I assume you are looking at the 60 K XT80 furnace.

Other than the thermostat, I wouldn't quibble over one system versus the other. I would include the media cabinet, a deal in itself but you don't identify brand/model.

I suggest reviewing warranty on each system as well as qualifying dealer reputation in your marketplace.

IMO


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RE: Replacing a 20 year old Trane Unit 2.5 ton

Thanks for the Info.

Another person is going to quote me a Carrier 16 seer system. Is there a comparable Carrier Unit to the Rheem and Trane Systems Identified? Is one brand better than the other?

Also what brand/type 5" media filter should I ask for. One installer says to go with AprilAire but I do not know what model and also how easy it is to get replacement filters and the cost of those filters.

In addition, what are your thoughts on duct cleaning prior to a new install. Our house has flexible ducts that have never been cleaned in the 20 years we have lived there. The one company uses a video screen as they go thru the duct system to clean it. Price could range from 400 to 1000 depending on square feet.

Thanks In advance


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RE: Replacing a 20 year old Trane Unit 2.5 ton

With prices like you have rec'd, I think you are wasting your time. But it's yours to waste. If you are shopping for a price, I would not expect Carrier to be less expensive nor any better than the systems you were quoted.

With that said, the furnace equivalent model in a Carrier would be the Performance Boost 80, Mdl 58PHA paired with a Comfort 16 condenser. You would want the best matching ATA or ALA Carrier coil.

If you select the Trane system, I would want their Perfect Fit media filter cabinet because the cabinet is heavy duty compared to others plus it s made to fit the return end of Trane furnaces like a hand should fit a glove. I have that model on my system. Otherwise there are many third party brands like AprilAire and Honeywell.

I am not big on duct cleaning. How are you filtering your return air now?

IMO

Here is a link that might be useful: Performance Boost 80 Furnace


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RE: Replacing a 20 year old Trane Unit 2.5 ton

The 2 quotes I received for the Rheem and Trane systems are from a large AC company in Atlanta. A rated with the BBB plus good reviews on some of the sites about them (Not sure how much you can rely on those reviews however) The sales guy seemed very knowledgeable and used to be an installer himself. He did a manualJ computation and said I needed 34K of cooling (Between 2.5 and 3 Ton). I decided to stick with the 2.5 ton. They offer a 10 year labor warranty when you sign up for an annual maintenance agreement at $70 per year. (Not bad depending on what they cover - Need to see the fine print)

I also have a neighbor that has his own Heating and AC business and has installed commercial and residential units. His pricing is comparable but he was going to go and see what prices he could get with Carrier today. I will see what he comes up with today and make a decision.

I know he would do a good install and if I had an issue with the system he is just down the street. He would give me a 1 year labor warranty. I would still want everything in writing obviously.

I currently just use a filtreate 1" filter at the return at the furnace. The return up in the living area (Only one does not have a filter there just a grill. But dust does accumulate on the grill. My wife complains about the dust in the house and is always wanting the ducts to be cleaned ($99 special). I have told her I do not believe those prices and not sure with flexible duct systems it is wise due to the potential for damaging the ductwork.

Thanks


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RE: Replacing a 20 year old Trane Unit 2.5 ton

Are you saying you have a filter at the furnace and filters at the return grills? You should only have a filter at the furnace. The Filtrete filters are restrictive. My recommendation is to get a 4 inch media filter which should last a whole year.

Duct cleaning is usually a waste of money. If there is debris in your duct work, then you have to figure out how the debris entered. This is a sign the returns need to be sealed.

The basement will need to be a separate zone if you want good temperature control in the winter. If have this same issue in my house. On sunny days during the winter the solar gain of the upper two floors is enough to keep the house warm enough that the furnaces hardly operate. The result is the basement is six degrees colder.


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RE: Replacing a 20 year old Trane Unit 2.5 ton

Curtis

Here are the AHRi numbers.

I would want the 3821 coil on the Rheem for the additional cooling BTUs.

4035585 Active Systems RHEEM RAPM SERIES RHEEM MANUFACTURING COMPANY RAPM-030JEZ RCFL-A*3821 RGPT-07?BRQ? 30600 13.00 16.00 1 RCU-A-CB 231 Yes

3442927 Active Systems XB14 TRANE 4TTB4030E1 4TXCC044BC3 *UD1B060A9H3 29000 13.00 16.00 1 RCU-A-CB 219 Yes

You never identified Tane coil Mdl number.

IMO


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RE: Replacing a 20 year old Trane Unit 2.5 ton

Thanks the quote I received did not have the Trane Coil Number listed.

I really like the Rheem setup but the Furnace size only comes in 50KBTU or 75KBTU. I really need a 60K BTU system. The Trane setup will be able to give me the 60K BTU furnace.

The Carrier setup will give me a 66KBTU furnace: (As close as I could get) See the setup I have listed:

AC Condensor
Carrier Infinity Series (24ANB630) 2.5 Ton

Furnace
Performance Boost 80 Furnace (58PHA070 66KBTU)

Coil
Carrier Coil to bring Seer up to 16 (For $300 Tax Credit)
(Looks like I would have to use a 3rd party coil mfg by Aspen or Advanced Distributor Products to get the 16 Seer rating)

What coil mfg or Coil number would you recommend to use with this Carrier system?

Thanks


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RE: Replacing a 20 year old Trane Unit 2.5 ton

I believe you are mistaken on heating BTUs.

Keep in mind, there is input BTUs and output or delivered BTUs. The difference is efficiency and waste gas.

For the Rheem, you would get about 60 KBTUs output.

On the Trane XT80 60 K model, about 48 KBTUs.

Not certain on the Carrier. looks like about 56 KBTUs. You should verify this though. Not certain of the input BTUs.

You are being quoted wrong condenser from the Carrier dealer. Way overkill!

IMO


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RE: Replacing a 20 year old Trane Unit 2.5 ton

What compressor model would you ask for in the Carrier Line?

My previous furnace was 60K BTU Input @ 80% equals 48K BTU Output.

I cannot find a Rheem RGPT Furnace that matches this:
They only have the 50K BTU or 75K BTU furnaces (Input). Would you recommend going to 75K BTU Input in this case. That would equate to 60K BTU Output

Thanks


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RE: Replacing a 20 year old Trane Unit 2.5 ton

As far as Carrier condensers, first choice Performance 16, second choice Comfort 16.

See link below.

Here is a link that might be useful: Carrier AC Condensers


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RE: Replacing a 20 year old Trane Unit 2.5 ton

Dealer should select coil. I will tell you if it s a good choice.

IMO


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RE: Replacing a 20 year old Trane Unit 2.5 ton

Hi thanks for the input:

Based on the AHRI listing for the carrier models I am looking at: (See the coils listed - I think they are Carrier Coils and not 3rd party). All appear to get me to 16 seer.

How do you tell if one coil is better than the other??

Model
AC Condensor
Carrier Performance Series (24ACC630A**30) 2.5 Ton

Furnace
Performance Boost 80 Furnace (58PHA070-16 66K BTU)

Coil
Carrier Coil to bring Seer up to 16 (For $300 Tax Credit)
CNPH*3117A** (AHRI 3655855)
CNPV*3117A** (AHRI 3656301)
CSPH*4212A** (AHRI 3656910)

Thanks In advance


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RE: Replacing a 20 year old Trane Unit 2.5 ton

The coil is selected based on the type of installation (upflow, downflow, horizontal). Since they all achieve 16 SEER then the installer picks to one that is most appropriate.

Here is a link that might be useful: Carrier Coils


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RE: Replacing a 20 year old Trane Unit 2.5 ton

3655855 Active Systems PERFORMANCE 16 PURON AC CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 24ACC630A**30 CNPH*3117A** 58PH*070-16 28600 13.00 16.00 1 RCU-A-CB 216 Yes

3656301 Active Systems PERFORMANCE 16 PURON AC CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 24ACC630A**30 CNPV*3117A** 58PH*070-16 28600 13.00 16.00 1 RCU-A-CB 216 Yes

3656910 Active Systems PERFORMANCE 16 PURON AC CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 24ACC630A**30 CSPH*4212A** 58PH*070-16 28600 13.00 16.00 1 RCU-A-CB 216 Yes

The numbers are all the same. A bit shy of full cooling BTUs for a 2 1/2 ton. Pay attention here if you think you are borderline on cooling.

Evap coil model selection should be left to dealer but the numbers to be verified

On the coils, material is important. You want either ATA or ALA suffix, certainly no copper coils which are prone to failure. Clarify with dealer.

Add either Carrier Edge Thermidistat or HW Mdl 8321. I would prefer the Edge. Then a pleated media filter cabinet.

Have you even considered a higher eff condensing furnace? Just a thought.

IMO


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RE: Replacing a 20 year old Trane Unit 2.5 ton

Thanks for the info: I just need to make a decision and get this off my mind. I appreciate your time and I have learned much from this message board.

Once I get some quotes for the TRANE/RHEEM/ or CARRIER systems I will select one and be done. I may ask your opinion on the final system selected.

Thanks Again


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RE: Replacing a 20 year old Trane Unit 2.5 ton

Hello,

I got a quote on the following Trane System: (What do you think? I may want to only get the 60K BTU furnace instead of the 80K BTU) - Still want 16 seer for tax credit

Condensor: XB-14 (4TTB4030E1000C) 2.5 ton
Furnace: XT-80 80K BTU Furnace (TUD1C080A9H41B)
Coil: 4TXCC044BC3HCA
ARI: 3442928
Add honeywell 8321 thermostat
Protech 5" media air cleaner

Gets to 16 Seer ($300 tx credit)

$4,270


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RE: Replacing a 20 year old Trane Unit 2.5 ton

Curtis

As far as system goes, very nice.

But stop for a minute, you know your home, I don't.

The 80 KBTU furnace will cost you more to operate.

That's 33% more BTUs, from about 48 K to 64 K. Give this proper deliberation.

I would pay $100 more to get the Trane Perfect Fit Media Filter Cabinet.over what was quoted.

IMO


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RE: Replacing a 20 year old Trane Unit 2.5 ton

I would certainly not oversize the furnace!

Did the previous 60k XE78 ever fail to keep the home warm on the coldest days? If not, chances are 60k is already more than you need. The XT80 is a single stage furnace, so it will likely be running short cycles (worse for comfort, efficiency, and reliability in the long run). I would not do this even if it meant sacrificing the $300 tax credit, which is most likely why they quoted the oversized coil and 80k/4 ton furnace (to get to "16 SEER").

Some people like to upsize equipment as needed to achieve tax credit ratings. It's kind of ironic, since oversized equipment is less efficient and tends to create more problems. I like to size equipment for what the home needs and for maximum comfort. Have they verified that your current ducts could handle the additional airflow the larger furnace will need to move to maintain its efficiency and work properly?


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RE: Replacing a 20 year old Trane Unit 2.5 ton

The 60K XT80 has multiple configurations that reach 13 EER and 16 SEER.

3442927 Active Systems XB14 TRANE 4TTB4030E1 4TXCC044BC3 *UD1B060A9H3 29000 13.00 16.00 1 RCU-A-CB 219 Yes

IMO


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RE: Replacing a 20 year old Trane Unit 2.5 ton

On the Carrier system the quote included an emerson 2 stage 6" blue thermostat.

Will that work with the Carrier Condensor and Performance Boost 80 furnace?

Or should I request a quote with the Edge Programmable Thermostat TP-PRH or the HW 8321

Some of the thermostats mentioned are quite complex and many of the features may not be used. Some require additional wiring to take advantage of the additional features. I just want a basic programmable thermostat with temp and humidity control for the basic Carrier system. Will there be a need for additional wiring if the TP-PRH or HW 8321 is selected.


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RE: Replacing a 20 year old Trane Unit 2.5 ton

First choice Carrier Edge Thermidistat, second choice HW Mdl #8321.

What Carrier coil Mdl number did dealer quote?

3655855 Active Systems PERFORMANCE 16 PURON AC CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 24ACC630A**30 CNPH*3117A** 58PH*070-16 28600 13.00 16.00 1 RCU-A-CB 216 Yes

3656301 Active Systems PERFORMANCE 16 PURON AC CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 24ACC630A**30 CNPV*3117A** 58PH*070-16 28600 13.00 16.00 1 RCU-A-CB 216 Yes

3656910 Active Systems PERFORMANCE 16 PURON AC CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 24ACC630A**30 CSPH*4212A** 58PH*070-16 28600 13.00 16.00 1 RCU-A-CB 216 Yes

The numbers are all the same. A bit shy of full cooling BTUs for a 2 1/2 ton. Pay attention here if you think you are borderline on cooling.

Evap coil model selection should be left to dealer but the numbers to be verified.

On the coils, material is important. You want either ATA or ALA suffix, certainly no copper coils which are prone to failure. Clarify with dealer.

Add either Carrier Edge Thermidistat or HW Mdl 8321. I would prefer the Edge. Then a pleated media filter cabinet.

Have you even considered a higher eff condensing furnace? Where will furnace be located? Just a thought.

IMO


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RE: Replacing a 20 year old Trane Unit 2.5 ton

C36A175C539W - Coil I told him I wanted a quote with one of the 3 Carrier Coils listed with this system not Advan Dist which this one is.

Wouldnt you want one of the 3 Carrier Coils?


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RE: Replacing a 20 year old Trane Unit 2.5 ton

That's a third party coil which is unacceptable.

Dealer should quote best Carrier Mdl coil ATA or ALA suffix for your application. That's his job, not mine.

I want full cooling BTUs for a 2 1/2 ton condenser.

IMO


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RE: Replacing a 20 year old Trane Unit 2.5 ton

Thanks he is coming back with a quote with one of the Carrier Coils.

Also I believe he is quoting a Emerson White Rogers Thermostat,
Digital Thermostat 4H, 2C, Programmable
Model: 1F95EZ-0671

6 Inch display with very large settings and very easy to use. (I like the ease of use and large digital readout)

If this thermostat is used with the current Carrier system what features would I miss out on? I know it does not have humidity control? etc


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RE: Replacing a 20 year old Trane Unit 2.5 ton

I think I have narrowed down the system specifics I want:
(13EER/16 SEER) AHRI 3656301

AC Condensor: 2.5 Ton Carrier Perf. Series (24ACC630A**30)

Perf. Boost 80 Furnace (58PHA070-16)

Coil: (Carrier Tin Plated Copper Coil) (CNPVP3117ATA)

New Condensate Pump with safety switch
New AC Pad - Leveled
Emerson Programmable Thermostat (1F95EZ-0671) Blue Easy Reader
5" Aprilaire media filter (2210/2310/2410 series) - MERV 11
New 10" return duct added to basement drop ceiling
Clean and flush Lineset or replace if needed

Total Price: $4,395

Thermostat Selection: I know other more complex thermostats have been recommeded namely the Carrier Edge and/or Honeywell 8321 models.

What can these 2 more sophisticated thermostats do over the basic one I referenced with the current system setup? (I will not have an additional humidifier added for humidity control). I would ask for one of the more sophisticated/more expensive ones if I could understand how they will provide more efficiency and functionality with the current system setup.

Thanks In Advance with any followup comments


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RE: Replacing a 20 year old Trane Unit 2.5 ton

Curtis

I believe that's the same system I speced out last Thursday. As mentioned, you do take a small haircut on cooling BTUs for a 2 1/2 ton AC condenser. The furnace is about 15% larger than existing and will be very quiet compared to existing.

3656301 Active Systems PERFORMANCE 16 PURON AC CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 24ACC630A**30 CNPV*3117A** 58PH*070-16 28600 13.00 16.00 1 RCU-A-CB 216 Yes

I would enlarge the supply runs to the basement. Now is the time.

As to thermostat selection, I am a believer in systems including thermostat selection. Too many times, I see homeowners purchase nice HVAC and then either due to pricing or dealers preying on unsuspecting buyers install an incorrect thermostat that short changes a system's capabilities. I am not familiar with Emerson W-R thermostats. I did read the literature available online this morning. Both the Carrier Edge and HW Mdl #8321 have a feature that improves dehumidification in AC cooling. I don't have to remind you of Atlanta summers. For that reason, I would select the Carrier Edge thermidistat even if it costs a bit more.

Suggest you read all the info on link provided below.

IMO
Good Luck!

Here is a link that might be useful: Carrier Performance Boost 80


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RE: Replacing a 20 year old Trane Unit 2.5 ton

If you're going with Carrier, get the aluminum coil. Model number will end with "ALA."

A 10" return for the basement? Is the basement open to the rest of the house? Not a good idea to make a basement (too) negative for multiple reasons. You have only two supply grilles in the basement. If your main return is 12", it is undersized. I would not compensate by adding too large of a return in the basement. I would either increase the size of the existing main return or add another return in the main living area. 8" return in the basement is likely fine assuming two 6" supply runs.

This post was edited by ryanhughes on Tue, May 7, 13 at 10:26


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RE: Replacing a 20 year old Trane Unit 2.5 ton

OK Thanks.

I had read previously that the ATA coils were more reliable than the ALA models. The posts I saw this from were back several years ago when many evaporator coils had leaks when going to 410A systems

Many said the ATA coils were more reliable. Is that still the case? I want to get the best model coil for reliability.

Thanks


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RE: Replacing a 20 year old Trane Unit 2.5 ton

I think you are confusing ACA and ALA. The ATA were supposedly an improvement over the previous ACA copper coils (and before that, the CK5B). The ACA coils had widespreak leakage issues even after just a few years. The tin-plated copper (ATA) coils were introduced due to the number of warranty claims on these bad Carrier coils -- the tin coating ("ArmorCoat") would help resist formicary corrosion which causes pinhole leaks to develop. All-aluminum coils are more modern and the way to go. Carrier released the ALA coil not too long ago to keep up with other manufacturers. Trane had been making all-aluminum evaporator coils for a while (4TXC). Soon enough I believe it will be standard -- more an more manufacturers are releasing aluminum coils. I would have nothing else.


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RE: Replacing a 20 year old Trane Unit 2.5 ton

I will defer to Ryan on the Carrier coils. Certainly though the ATA tin plated coils are a big improvement over the copper coils and carry a 10 yr warranty unlike the copper coils. If little to no price increase, I would go with the ALA aluminum coils assuming availability.

IMO


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RE: Replacing a 20 year old Trane Unit 2.5 ton

I have learned quite a bit from participating on these boards. I'd like to thank everyone who has helped me.

I know many consumers would not have dug into understanding this complex area and would just go with what the AC installer recommends which could be a big mistake.

There are so many things to consider when replacing a system and so many different combinations and variables that it can be very confusing at times.

Thanks again


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RE: Replacing a 20 year old Trane Unit 2.5 ton

How does this price look for the following equipment:

PROPOSAL: 2013-13 Electrical panel Replacement HVAC System Replacement and Upgrade
` Provide labor and material to replace existing 2.5 Ton Trane HVAC 10 SEER System
with a 16 SEER Carrier system, furnace is variable speed.
This replacement also includes the addition of a Aprilaire 5" filter, new condenser pad,
new Carrier Edge Programmable Thermostat, new condensate Sump Pump, new 3"
condenser pad and the addition of a 2'x2'x10" return in ceiling close to mechanical room
separating wall. The new system with use refrigerant 410A . The existing line set will be
reused if does not leak at 400 PSI field test. Line set will be thouroughly flushed prior to
use. This will be a permitted job as requested, add $185 if line set is to be replaced.

Included are:
Furnace - 58PHA070-16 (variable speed)
Coil - CNPVP3117AlA (carrier)
Condenser - 24ACC630A**30
3" Condenser pad
Carrier Edge Programmable Thermostat
2'x2'x10" return
Condendate pump - (20' head with safety Cut out)
5" Aprilare Media Filter assembly - Model 2210
Exclusions:
1. Any work not specified above, including sheetrock repair.

Rebate
The specified equipment above qualifies for a $300 tax rebate but could not confirm the existence of any other
rebate.

Cost
Equipment cost including Permit fee $4,295.00
Total cost including Labor and other miscellaneous charges $5,683.00

Price Includes:
All materials, labor, taxes and equipment necessary to complete job in a professional manner and
according to industry standard. Also included are, permit fee and disposal of the old equipment.
Miscellaneous Chatrges; brazing rods, flex duct, diffuser, Nitrogen, overflow switch, flush, and acetylene.

Warranty
Labor is fully warranted for one year from date of benificial use. Installation warranty
covers equipment failure cause by installation. Equipment is warrantied for 10 years.
Terms
Equipment cost on acceptance of proposal and balance on completion of the project.


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RE: Replacing a 20 year old Trane Unit 2.5 ton

That furnace is not variable speed.


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RE: Replacing a 20 year old Trane Unit 2.5 ton

I know that but I guess the Edge thermostat can contol blower speed for humidity. That is what I get from the Info on the furnace anyway. (Not true variable)

That is why I was going to have him install the Edge Thermostat for that feature.

Thanks


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RE: Replacing a 20 year old Trane Unit 2.5 ton

Ryan is correct. The furnace is not var speed. It has the high eff single speed ECM blower motor. Same as the Trane and Rheem systems you considered.

What kind of condenser pad? No plastic pad for me. New pad should be made level.

Quote includes the ALA aluminum coil?

Not clear why the price jumped up?

Why the electric panel replacement? This was never mentioned in your other posts.

IMO


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RE: Replacing a 20 year old Trane Unit 2.5 ton

Yes he is quoting a concrete pad and is getting the aluminum coil, Not sure why a new electric connect.

He said the coil price (OEM) and thermostat plus furnace raised the price. He is getting his equip thru Mingledorffs and the person on the phone told him it was variable speed. He is going to get the equipment quote directly from this company.

I am still confused on the term variable speed. Doesn't the thermostat edge control the blower speed? I would think that this is a single stage but if the ecm blower speed can be controlled (Other than off/on/auto) then couldn't it be considered a variable speed blower?

Thanks

Thanks


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RE: Replacing a 20 year old Trane Unit 2.5 ton

I would assume you are talking about installing a disconnect at the condenser. If you didn't have one, this would get you to code.

Variable speed blower motors have a ramp up and ramp down profile. The single stage blower motor furnaces you were quoted have a fixed speed DC motor. Very efficient and quiet but not var speed.

I wouldn't fret about this unless you want to spend more money.

IMO


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RE: Replacing a 20 year old Trane Unit 2.5 ton

Thanks, I just do not want to be priced for a variable speed furnace thus the reason for the equip quote.

Do you think the price is reasonable for this setup?

Thanks


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RE: Replacing a 20 year old Trane Unit 2.5 ton

Variable speed blowers can adapt to more duct systems and adjust their rpm to maintain a constant cfm (airflow), whereas with non variable speed blowers, as the filter gets dirty (easy fix, change it) or if the ductwork size/design was marginal, variable speed blowers would improve airflow throughout the home (also use a bit more electricity to do so). So overall variable speed blowers simply provide more precise control over the actual quantity of airflow over the coil at any given time for heating/cooling or dehumidification, which in theory is more efficient and better for your comfort and reliability of the system. The numbers do sometimes favor the high efficiency (not non variable speed) X13 ECM motors like the one in the 58HPA. So I do recommend variable speed blowers whenever possible; in the Carrier line that does mean getting the Infinity furnace (model 59TN6). Besides earlier reliability issues with them across all brands, I think for the most part they are pretty reliable now and becoming the new standard for mid range "high" efficiency systems.

So, while it is better technology, it isn't a big deal if you want to keep costs down, and I think your quoted price is very reasonable. Doesn't seem you're veing gouged in any way. And I also think you can indeed use the edge pro thermidistat with the 58PHA to run a dehumidification mode (lowered airflow). Nice feature.

Glad you are getting the aluminum coil. It may cost more but it is worth it.

This post was edited by ryanhughes on Fri, May 10, 13 at 18:32


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RE: Replacing a 20 year old Trane Unit 2.5 ton

Curtis

Look at your post from May 7th.

Price was $4395.

Now it is $5683.

$1300 more. This deserves an explanation from your dealer.

So the thermostat diff, coil diff, added disconnect? What else have I missed?
Certainly that is not $1300 worth.

Explanation is required!

IMO


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RE: Replacing a 20 year old Trane Unit 2.5 ton

Is there a way to determine the Cooling capacity of my current R22 Trane system?

This is a 20 year old system. I know the new Carrier 410A setup has 28600 Cooling Capacity (Btuh) but I would like to know how my existing system compares.

My old system consists of the following components?

AC: (Old 10 SEER)
Trane XE 1000
21C930620P01
TTR030C100A1
H21258062

FURNACE:
TRANE XE 78/60,000 BTU
TUD060C936A1
H11503394

AIR HANDLER:
HEATCRAFT
HA02230D1
45B120500
S/N 93-050

Thanks In Advance


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RE: Replacing a 20 year old Trane Unit 2.5 ton

No way of knowing but I would guess about same as Carrier quoted.

I think a better question is how did existing AC perform in the Hotlanta summer.

IMO


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RE: Replacing a 20 year old Trane Unit 2.5 ton

It performed well. Just want to make sure the new system provides at least the same cooling level as far as BTU's as the old.

I was also reading about proper sizing of AC equipment and in many cases they are oversized even when Manual J computations are performed by HVAC contractors as there are many variables that can be manipulated to raise the tonnage. (Many HVAC contractors feel more comfortable with larger equipment based on a study)

The old rule of thumb:

400 square feet per ton, to 1,000 square feet per ton is a very wide range. I think the 2.5 ton system will be sufficient for the size of my house. 1650 sq feet main level and 560 square feet in the basement.

Thanks

So it appears that


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RE: Replacing a 20 year old Trane Unit 2.5 ton

If the correct parameters are entered into the Manual J software than the results are accurate. I am curious as to what study shows HVAC contractors are more comfortable with larger equipment. Can you provide a link?


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RE: Replacing a 20 year old Trane Unit 2.5 ton

Heres a Link:

http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs/dept/musings/saving-energy-manual-j-and-manual-d

Even when they do the calculations, the results are usually wrong
In his posted comment, Bailes raised an interesting point: the problem of “garbage in, garbage out” (GIGO) Manual J calculations. Several energy experts have commented on the GIGO problem, including John Proctor, Hank Rutkowski, and Allison Bailes.
Hank Rutkowski, the mechanical engineer who wrote the original Manual J document, was recently interviewed for a profile posted on the Green Building Talk Web site. The piece notes, “Rutkowski estimates that only 10% of heating and cooling equipment sizing decisions are based on some type of Manual J calculation and that less than 1% of the jobs are based on an aggressive implementation of the recommended design procedures.”

Rutkowski explains the GIGO problem this way: “Manual J is a good tool if you use it aggressively. Follow the rules and it will give you a reasonable margin of safety. But the average contractor says, ‘Better safe than sorry,’ so he fudges here and there. He adds 5 to 10 degrees to the summer and winter design temperatures, calls the building ‘average’ instead of ‘tight’ and doesn't take credit for shading by interior blinds and drapes. Then when he finally comes up with a load number for sizing, he throws in an extra half-ton of AC just for the heck of it.”

For a high-performance home, sizing by Manual J may still result in oversizing
Several years ago, I had a conversation with building scientist Joe Lstiburek about air conditioners installed in Building America homes in Las Vegas. “HVAC designers are committed to the institutional oversizing of air conditioning equipment,” Lstiburek told me. “The average system is sized at 150% to 200% of the requirements of Manual J. They oversize because they don’t know what they will get for a building envelope, and to compensate for duct leakage and inappropriate refrigerant charge. If you size according to Manual J, there is already a fudge factor built in. But most designers then add another fudge factor.”

According to Lstiburek, their experience proved the high-performance Building America homes in Las Vegas could have had HVAC systems sized at about 60% of Manual J. To be conservative, his team recommended installing systems sized at 80% of Manual J.

Does oversizing matter?
There are strong arguments against routine oversizing of HVAC equipment. The best argument is simple: oversized equipment usually costs more than right-sized equipment.

Oversized equipment suffers from short cycling. For example, an oversized furnace brings a home up to temperature quickly, and then shuts off. A few minutes later, it comes on again, only to shut off quickly. Many homeowners find the see-saw sound of a short-cycling furnace to be annoying.

When air conditioners short cycle, the units don't run long enough to achieve much dehumidification ��" at least in theory. (During the first few minutes of operation, an air conditioner cools a house. But not enough moisture has collected on the cold coil or on the pan below for any water to have actually gone down the drain. When the air conditioner turns off, all of the moisture in the pan and on the coil just re-evaporates.)

The conventional wisdom may be wrong, however
Increasing evidence shows that energy experts have exaggerated the negative effects of equipment oversizing, however. Studies have confirmed that oversized furnaces don't use any more energy than right-sized furnaces. Moreover, newer modulating or two-speed furnaces operate efficiently under part-load conditions, solving any possible problems from furnace oversizing.

Although there are ample reasons to believe that oversized air conditioners are less effective than right-sized equipment at dehumidification, at least one field study was unable to measure any performance improvements or energy savings after replacing an existing oversized air conditioner with a new right-sized unit.

The bottom line
The main reason to choose right-sized equipment is to avoid paying too much money for equipment you don't need. A Manual J calculation will ensure you don't spend more than necessary for your furnace, boiler, or air conditioner.

Moreover, a Manual J calculation will provide room-by-room heat loss and heat-gain information that is essential to good duct design. Without good duct design, you're running the risk of comfort complaints.


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RE: Replacing a 20 year old Trane Unit 2.5 ton

Hello,

Having the new Carrier Unit Installed. I have a question as I have been assisting with the install as the guy installing is a neighbor that is in the AC business. We pulled a new 3/8inch high pressure line as my old one was too small. Also the 3/4" line coming out of the house was crimped almost in half. (My installer said that was a problem but he was able to cut out the bend.) Bought this house new and the original install was problematic.

My question is the Carrier Evap coiland connecting it to the Furnace. (This is an upflow and the Coil matches the Furnace Size.) There are some tabs that we bent up from the furnace and that holds the coil. The instructions say you do not have to fastern the coil with screws or anything as long as the front dimensions are equal. I am sure you would need mastic and/or Tape to seal it properly.

Just seemed like you would want it screwed down for security? Any comments?

Thanks


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RE: Replacing a 20 year old Trane Unit 2.5 ton

Curtis

I know it's done. I don't like it and would want the coil properly mounted and connected.

IMO


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replacing new trane system

I have old equipment which I want to replace I received a quote for a xr13 model 4TTR3030 condenser 2.5 ton and a handler model TEM3A0B30 , the quote was for install and equipment besides a hurricane tie down pad since I live in Florida was $3500 out the door ... Is that a good price for this equipment? I have 1000 sq ft of area equal to a two bedroom condo but it's a older home...

This post was edited by Michael795 on Thu, Jun 5, 14 at 22:32


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