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Heat Pump Decisions

Posted by mastergunnera8 (My Page) on
Sat, Mar 1, 08 at 9:49

Been researching for a bit and found two good installers that I feel good about. Choices and prices:

Carrier Performance 15:

15 Seer Performance Series with Performance Series Variable air handler
new digital standard stat
electric heat pack
Carrier humidifier large fan powered
Total install with humidifier $5935.00

Infinity 16

$7500.00 installed
Infinity control
4" media cabinet
Carrier fan powered humidifier
Unit model Heat pump and Air handler are FE4AN (fan coil) 25HNA6 (heat pump).

I am really looking at the Infinity, but it is at the high end of my budget...is it worth it? Do these prices look good?


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Heat Pump Decisions

You have posted the Infinity 16 model numbers. What about the Performance 15 model numbers?

What State? What are your electric rates (in cents per kw-hr)?


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RE: Heat Pump Decisions

You need to ask yourself if the indoor air quality adds are important to you because that is where much of the increased cost is, if you or your family has breathing problems especially in winter you will be glad you spent the money


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RE: Heat Pump Decisions

Carrier Performance is:

outside unit: 25HPA5
inside unit: FV4 performance fan coil; electric heat pack installed

I am very concerned with air quality...have heard different opinions about how to do this...4" media, the Honeywell 200E...electronic...

Thoughts?


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RE: Heat Pump Decisions

you can install the 15 seer unit and still get the infinity control as long as you use the FE air handler. this will save you some money and you can still get the benefits of the infinity control. the only thing you want have is the two speed compressor. is your house zoned or not. if it is zoned i would get the 2 speed but if it is not i would just go with the 15 seer and save the money.


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RE: Heat Pump Decisions

I agree with krantzcool, unless you live in the extreme southern climates then go with the 2 stage. Your ROI on that may be awhile since utility rates are going up, up, up but its going to use less energy and dehumidify WAY better.


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RE: Heat Pump Decisions

All this has nothing to do with the quality of life issues you are concerned about a 4" media filter merv 11 or greater with some kind of anti microbial device will help with your concerns if you want further help tell me what your families individual problems are and I will see if I can help


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RE: Heat Pump Decisions

Just a note about Indoor Air Quality. Problems related to poor indoor air quality are related to high Air Infiltration Rates (outside air infiltrating into the house - the outside air is more polluted than inside) and moisture and water management outside and in. Example - a very good bathroom exhaust fan will remove the water vapor when you shower - if you ever see condensation on the mirrors, there is a problem. Checkout the Energy Star website and download some info on indoor air quality, properly sizing the heat pump, sealing your home and ductwork. Money spent on these areas last forever. Filtering things once they are inside is the brute force approach to clean air. Find a home energy rater in your area and they can do a blower door test and find out a lot about your home. Good luck.


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RE: Heat Pump Decisions

Thanks to everyone here...I am looking at the house improvement through energy star site...have also read about the two compressors..recip vs scroll...and an opiton to upgrade to the 19 SEER scroll for another $800...can anyone comment on the installed prices?, please? The installer will give me 5yr labor also if I go with his service plan for that time...2 visits/yr for $160...
I am torn between the two..both look great..but keep getting the feeling I should be looking at a less sophisticated system...are these reliable?


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RE: Heat Pump Decisions

mastergunner,

do you mind stating area of country you live?

what is your electric rate?

what size system are you looking at?

TD


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RE: Heat Pump Decisions

Master - most high quality Energy Star labeled heat pumps come with a 10 year warranty. The key is proper sizing, good leak free duct work, adequate returns and a good design in general. It very easy to turn a SEER 19 unit to SEER 10 efficiency with an improper installation. Most reputable contractors will warrant everything for the 10 years.

Here is a link that might be useful: ES Info


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RE: Heat Pump Decisions

"Most reputable contractors will warrant everything for the 10 years."

The 10 year warranty is parts-only through the manufacturer. Some manufacturers provide only 5 year parts warranties. Labor warranties provided by the installation contractor are typically 1 to 2 years. 10-year labor warranties are available but at an additional cost.

Take care.


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RE: Heat Pump Decisions

do you mind stating area of country you live?
***Northern Virginia

what is your electric rate?
***between 12 and 13 per KWH

what size system are you looking at?

***3 ton
_________________________________________________

Getting a little overwhelmed with options...should I just get a decent system for $5000 or less or step up to the 16 SEER or 19 SEER Infinity units...$7500 / $8200...

Are these decent prices?


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RE: Heat Pump Decisions

If your power bills are anything like ours in Montgomery County they're rather high... you'd probably benefit from a higher efficiency system with added comfort.

Which companies are you dealing with out of curiosity?

The prices sound well-within reasonable limits to me.


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RE: Heat Pump Decisions

Your cooling costs are determined by the Energy Efficiency Ratio (EER), not SEER, much to the misunderstanding of many people. In my opinion, a 14 SEER / 12 EER /9 HSPF system offers the best combination of purchase price and true operating costs.

13 to 15 SEER systems use one single-speed compressor, as do most systems in use today. 16 SEER uses a dual-speed compressor. 19 SEER uses a dual compressor. 16 and 19 SEER systems are not necessarily cheaper to run, but are indeed very expensive to purchase.

Best to you.


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RE: Heat Pump Decisions

mastergunner

I hope you took note of Gary's post above. I agree with everything he said particularly the HP performance metrics he laid out.

I would add the following:

1.you want to verify both the cooling and heating BTUs for the systems you are considering.They can be found on the CEE Directory-see attached link.

2.I prefer electronic demand defrost over timed defrost. Electronic is more efficient. A nice feature but not a deal breaker.

3.You definitely want a matching var speed air handler.

4.You want a stat like the Honeywell Vision Pro IAQ that can control blower speed for superior dehumidification in the summer cooling mths.(if you elect Carrier or Bryant, you definitely want the Infinity or Evolution controller).

5.And ask dealer to stage your heating strips based on demand. If the load calc, indicates a 15KW,then get a 10KW and a 5KW and have them staged.

IMO

Here is a link that might be useful: CEE Directory


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RE: Heat Pump Decisions

1.you want to verify both the cooling and heating BTUs for the systems you are considering.They can be found on the CEE Directory-see attached link.
***did it!!! put all the systems I am looking at in excel...wow, easier to look at**

2.I prefer electronic demand defrost over timed defrost. Electronic is more efficient. A nice feature but not a deal breaker.***** Which systems have it? The performance 15, comfort 15, infinity 16/19?***

3.You definitely want a matching var speed air handler.
***got it***

4.You want a stat like the Honeywell Vision Pro IAQ that can control blower speed for superior dehumidification in the summer cooling mths.(if you elect Carrier or Bryant, you definitely want the Infinity or Evolution controller).
Infinity controller***

5.And ask dealer to stage your heating strips based on demand. If the load calc, indicates a 15KW,then get a 10KW and a 5KW and have them staged.
***interesting, I'll ask***

One question, any advantage to the two stage or the two compressor? the performance isn't two stage, at least not that I can find...

So, Going with 4" media, Carrier fan powered humidifier, infinity control (If possible)or IAQ if not,

looking at the numbers the:
25HPA536H30 FV4BNB006 Performance = 5935
25HNA636A003 FE4ANF005 Infinity 16 = 7500
25HNA936A003 FE4ANF005 Infinity 19 = 8400

After looking at the numbers, the perf 15 looks better for EER and HSPF

Heck, the 25HCA536A30 FE4ANB006+UI - Comfort series pair kicks &#(*%...13.5 EEr and 9 HSPF..are there any disadvantages to this match up? Can the 15 SEER outperform the 19 infinity? Does thie equate to energy consumption?

I might even ask about the pricing...will my contractor freak if I ask about model #'s...? Is it as easy as matching the #'s off the CEE directory?

Any advice? my brain is probably working too hard..and I feel sorry for my contractor...


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RE: Heat Pump Decisions

Sounds like you have done some research, But need help with the air quality issue. The electronic air cleaners are something that can create a breeding ground for contaminates if not maintained properly, I have found that the 4" FC40R Return grill filter, which installs in the Return Air filter grill on the wall is more easily maintained. It only cost about $40.00 and is good for 6 mo. and if you have a clean house like I do it will still do well up to a year. I apply a very light coat of Lysol spray to the filter every 4 to 6 weeks to kill any microbial or bacteria that may set-up household on it. I have had the other set-ups in the duct work from extented Media to electronic. I like this best and it works very well. I also installed a product developed by the space institute for cleaning up the air within my home called the Guardian Air by RGF Technologies that mounts in the Air Handler and wired into the blower circuit. This will kill all bacteria, viruses, Etc. and keep you duct free of contaminates. This product also will help with V.O.C.'s and of couse Dust Mites, a major allergin. I do disagree with one poster on outside air, it is usally less contaminated than inside air, that is why they are recommending that outside air be controlled and introduced into the living space for disapation of carbon dioxide build-up due to very tight constuction methods. IAQA.Org is a site to look at. Recommended outside air is 7.5 CFM / person + 0.01 CFM/sq.ft. ( 3 bedroom house, 2000sq. ft. = 50 CFM continuous. Also with the humidification you need to look at the TRUE STEAM by honeywell. its easy to maintain and can be remotely mounted and is not a bacteria trap. this item is around $300.00 the Guardian Air is about $450.00. I and my wife suffered from allergies once. Thank-you for your service to our country mastergunner. if you need more info contact me at live journal. Have a great Day! Ted


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RE: Heat Pump Decisions

"Heck, the 25HCA536A30 FE4ANB006+UI - Comfort series pair kicks &#(*%...13.5 EEr and 9 HSPF..are there any disadvantages to this match up? Can the 15 SEER outperform the 19 infinity? Does thie equate to energy consumption?"

That combination is 36,000 btu cooling (a full 3 tons), 13.5 EER, 16 SEER, 35,800 btu heating at 47F, 9 HSPF, 21,000 btu heating at 17F. Those are some kick a$$ numbers. ARI# 1133609.

A higher EER and HSPF system will always be cheaper to run than a lower EER and HSPF system.

That air handler may be a lot larger than the one you have now.

The Comfort Series is Carrier's lower end line. The Performance is in the middle and Infinity is best. I'm not sure of the differences between the Comfort and Performance Series (warranty, sound level?) - a good question for TD or for the Carrier rep. The Performance 15 already quoted to you (25HPA536) matched with the same FE4ANB006 air handler has almost identical performance numbers as the Comfort 15.

Best to you.

Here is a link that might be useful: ARIDirectory


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RE: Heat Pump Decisions

mastergunner

While the Comfort Series is low end Carrier, the numbers on the Comfort 15 do look good. Warranty appears to be same as the Performance 15. There may be some cosmetic differences in the outside cabinet. I see two major differences.

1.Sound-Comfort will be noisier
2.The Comfort 15 system does not support the Infinity controller, only their Thermidistat while the Performance 15 supports both.

Get a cost on the Comfort 15 and also ask if these models have time or demand defrost mode.I think I know the answer but will defer to your dealer.

It would be difficult to ignore those outstanding numbers though and if noise is not an issue and the Thermidistat is acceptable, then you certainly have another choice over the more expensive Infinity models. If there is good savings with the Comfort 15 system, you might consider putting that money on a 10 yr parts/labor ext warranty.

One more tidbit. I believe Carrier will be discontinuing the Performance line-check with dealer to verify.

IMO


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RE: Heat Pump Decisions

Link below to Carrier's heat pumps.

Both the Performance and Comfort have scroll compressors which are industry preferred.

TD is right - Performance Series is quieter and supports Infinity controls. Warranty is same: 5 year parts (that includes the coils), 10 year compressor. I also agree that a 10 year parts and labor warranty is the way to go, especially with sophisticated Infinity controls, and considering that 5 years on the coils is a little weak.

What is the cost of the Comfort Series 15 versus the Performance Series 15 with the same B006 air handler?

Take care.

Here is a link that might be useful: Carrier heat pumps


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RE: Heat Pump Decisions

mastergunner

Are you aware that Carrier currently is running a Spring rebate program for upper end systems?

I think your choice/decision boils down to your budget and how long you expect to be in this home. If you expect to move in the next few years, then go with the Performance or Comfort system. If you expect to be in home for any length of time, then you have to take a long look at the Infinity 16-I would not consider the 19 but that's me.

IMO

Here is a link that might be useful: Carrier Spring Rebate Program


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RE: Heat Pump Decisions

I thought that the infinity controller only required the FE air handler?...can the performance FV handler use the infinity contr.?

I don't have the comfort cost yet..

The only issue I have with the 16 infinity is the recip compressor and the perfomrnace/efficiency is lower than both the perf 15 and the comfort 15, and more cash...the infinity 19 is alot of cash...what is the real advantage?

The comfort sound level staes as low as 74Db...the performance is the quietest at 68 Db and the infinity is as low as 70...

What is the usual cost of the True-Steam? I have mentioned the unit...waiting on a price..the Carrier fan humidifier I think was around $530...

IAQ: so the Guardian Air by RGF Technologies takes the place of a UV unit? Looks like different technology..unless I can get the lights under and over the coil, there would be a gap?...anyone have any experience with this?

With the intake filter...looked at that, would this affect the intake airflow capacity?

I REALLY appreciate the advice...

I am getting closer to the purchase...by the end of this month...will sign up...


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RE: Heat Pump Decisions

that is correct. all that has to be evolution or infinity compatible is the air handler. you do not get all the bells and whistles without making everything evolution but as long as you go with the FE airhandler you can use the evolution or infinity control


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RE: Heat Pump Decisions

Thanks krantzcool...as long as one of the bells and whistles is the humidifier control..I should be OK if the comfort price is right, correct?


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RE: Heat Pump Decisions

you can still have the humidity control. it will dehumidify the same and if you add a humidifier it will work fine also. the main thing you will not get is the two speed compressor and the thermostat will not communicate with the outdoor unit which really means nothing to you you will never know the difference as long as it is set up right. the 14 seer units actually communicate with the evolution thermostat. the only one that does not communicate is the legacy line.


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RE: Heat Pump Decisions

So that said is the two speed compressor really worth its weight in gold?


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RE: Heat Pump Decisions

"So that said is the two speed compressor really worth its weight in gold?"

mastergunner,

answer to your question as phrased

no!

for me, the Performance 15 HP paired with matching var speed air handler and Infinity controller will do a great job. You will lose some opportunity for savings with the sgl stg Performance over The Infinity 16 two stg compressor but still receive great comfort. And you get the scroll. Not the top of line with all the bells and whistles but certainly a great system.

IMO


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RE: Heat Pump Decisions

i agree with tigerdunes. the only way i would spend the extra money on the two speed is if i was doing zoning. i have the two speed hp in my house and to be honest with you i think on a very hot day it does not cool as good as the one speed. i have zoning so i like it for when only one zone is calling i dont have to use four tons of cooling and it is a big money saver. but where i live we have very hot summers.


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RE: Heat Pump Decisions

Mastergunner,

I live in NoVa and am also in the process of shopping for replacement of my 21 years old heating & cooling units. I've got a few quotes from a few Carrier dealers, but none of them comes close to what you've got. I would really appreciate if you can email me the dealer that you got the quote from. If you have installed the system already, what's your experience with them and how do you like the new system, Thanks in Advance!

1st dealer: 24APA536 (14SEER) Cooling coil CNPVP3617 34,800btu
58CTA090-1-14(Two stage gas) 90,000btu
Honeywell Pro8000 Programmable Thermosta
replace refrigerant lines Total $7120

Same A/Cunit & cooling coil
Furnace 58CVA090-1-16 (2 stage with variable speed) Total $7611

Hybrid System 25HPA536 3tons 34,400btu 15 SEER
Furnace 58CVA090-1-16
Infinity Control Total $8243
Warranty : 10 yr on compressor, 20yr on heat exchange, 5 yr on other parts, 1 yr on labor.
The sales rep told me that their company does not participate in Carrier's rebate program, so price quoted will not quality for factory rebbate (TRUE??)

2nd Dealer : 58CVA090 (80% AFUE/90,000 btu)Infinity Series 2 stage variable speed gas furnace
24ACA336 (13SEER/36,000btu)Comfort Series A/C with Puron R410-A refrigerant, Matching Cased evaporator coil (no model# given)
Carrier TSTATCCNAC-01 Non-Programmable thermostat.
New refrigerant line, install liquid line filter drier.

Warranty : 10 yr compressor, 20 yr heat exchanger 1 yr parts & labor. Total : $6650

Same Dealer: Option #1 Carrier 24APA536(15SEER) Performance Series in lieu of 24ACA336, everything else the same
Total $6950

Option #2 Carrier 24ANA736(16SEER) Infinity Series with Infinity Control ($1000 Cool Cash rebate from Carrier) Total : $8530

Option #3 25HNA636 (15.5 SEER) Infinity Series Hybrid Heat Pump with Infinity Control ($1,100 rebate from Carrier)
Total : $9270

To add Carrier LFP deluxe fan powered flow thrugh humidifier, Add$595 to total price. To add Aprilaire 2200 High Efficiency media air filter, add $545 to total price.

3rd dealer: Inifty Series Dual btuH capacity 25HNA936A003
3ton cased coil#CNPVP3621ATA, Puron hard shutoff TXV $5,887
Infinity 80 Variable speed dual btuH furnace Mod#58CVA110-F-1-20 $3,347
Infinity Control Mod#SYSTXCCUIDO1-A $438
Permit $82
Company discount -$850
Total Installed cost $8905.

4th Dealer (this is the only Trane quote I've got)
Trane 16 SEER R410A A/C 4TTX6036A1000A $3,300
XV-80 2 stage Var. speed gas furnace
TUD090R9V4K $2,700
R410A evap-coil 4TXCC037BC3HCA $ 700
Aprilaire 5000 Air cleaner $ 750
Honeywell Pro8000 (no charge)
Total Installed $7,450
Does not include replacing existing refrigerant line, but they will flush the existing line out.

I am really overwhelmed and really need some professional help here.
Thanks everybody!

Haadpan


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