First off I would like to see the load calcs in writing.

Do I understand 5 tons of cooling for 2300 sq ft?

What size systems are you replacing?

Never like to see a dealer quote programmable thermostat. The model and brand should be spelled out.

Trane's XV18 has variable capacity that moves up and down based on demand. Relatively new in a trane's lineup so not really any history.

I prefer Trane heat pumps over Carrier primarily due to electronic demand defrost, a feature Carrier/Bryant does not have.

Would like to see complete model numbers for each system quoted.

How do you filter your return air?

IMO

Thanks for the quick response tigerdunes. I'm going to try to answer/respond to your questions.

I believe the XV18 is 5 tons total. I was told they don't come in half tons.
The XL18i would be 4.5 tons, 3 downstairs, 1.5 upstairs.
The Infinity would be 4 tons, 2 up and 2 down.

I am replacing two 2 ton units.

The model and brands are spelled out, sorry for not including. The XV comes with the XL950 comfortlink II. The XL18i with Nexia TCONT624. The Carrier infinity with the infinity SYSTXCCITW01.

Model numbers:
Trane XV
Downstairs:
TAM8COC36V31CA handler, 2.5-3ton
4TWV8036A1000A 18 seer heat pump
BAYEVAC05LG1AA 5kw Trane heat strip
TZONE950AC52ZA comfortlink thermostat
Upstairs:
TAM8COA24V21CA handler, 1.5-2ton
4TWV8024A1000A 18 seer heat pump
BAYEVAC05LG1AA 5kw Trane heat strip
TZONE950AC52ZA comfortlink thermostat

Trane XL18i
Downstairs:
4TWX8036E1000A XL18i 3-ton Heat pump
TAM7AOB30H21SA handler 2-3 ton
Same heat strip as above
TCONT624AS42DA Nexia thermostat
Upstairs:
4TWX8024E1000B heat pump
Same handler, heat strip and thermostat as downstairs.

Carrier infinity:
Both upstairs and downstairs:
25HNB624A003 2 ton heat pump
FE4ANF002T00 handler, 1.5-3 tons
CE041N04 aux heat strip
SYSTXCCITN01 thermostat

Currently we just have a standard 20x20 return upstairs and downstairs with 3M allergy filters. I would be doing the media cabinets at a minimum. I like the carrier air purifier and disposable filters. Read some bad things about the Trane cleaneffects. So I'm still up in the air regarding these.

Thanks for feedback!

Unless you had trouble heating and cooling your home with existing systems, I would stick with 2 ton systems.

What size heat strip do you have now? It would seem a 7-8 KW would be the better choice.

Do you mind spelling out where in NC?

Not a fan of CleanEffects either for a variety of reasons. Would stick with a good 4-5" media cabinet.

Did you request the Nest stat and if so for what reason?

I think the pricing for basic swap outs is absurd especially for Trane systems.

IMO

Thanks tigerdunes. I agree with sticking with two 2-tons. The only quirk we have, is that our first floor has vaulted ceilings in the great room and foyer, that open up to the second floor. The ceiling vents in the great room are on the upstairs system. That's why I like the idea of sticking with what's already in place.

I am unsure what size heat strips I have right now. I will look into this today.

SE Coastal NC.

I didn't request any Nest stat. Just requested the infinity touch for carrier.

I want to edit the pricing, since the previous pricing included air purifiers, which I may be doing media cabinets instead.

Prices include all rebates and cash discounts.

Trane XV18, two systems = $19,400
Trane XL18i, two systems = $16,200
Carrier Infinity 16, two systems = $13,100

Honestly, I was shocked at the Trane quotes. I knew Trane carried a premium but was still sticker shocked. And this includes about $1300 in rebates for each system!

I am having another Trane quote today and a Bryant next week. Unfortunately, we only have a couple Carrier and Trane authorized dealers in town. I haven't been comfortable with some of them.

I will follow up with new quotes if they are any better. Thanks for the feedback.

Wow, 5 tons total seems way too big for a 2300 sq ft house on an XV18.

Great it is that Trane XV but you would be choking it in that amount of sq footage.

I would have an independent Manual J & maybe a Manual D done also.
And finally an air leak (blower) test.
Putting money on these things upfront can shave potential thousands off your final pricing AND provide better comfort & lower bills.
Oversizing or mis-sizing provides neither.

Even if you have to reconfigure the ducts AND Air seal remediate - I think you would still be shaving thousands off those quotes.

& No -you don't need a Trane Clean Effects - it's not any more effective vs. a regular 4"-5" media filter box & more hassle to maintain.

for comparison:
My XV17+TAM8 air handler is 3 tons & handles an entire 3k sq ft house.

Point being don't get fixated on equipment or brands - envelope prepping while not glamorous, keeps more $ in your pocket.

Here is a link that might be useful: Manual Calcs Types

This post was edited by pbx2 on Wed, Mar 5, 14 at 11:11

If you are in a true coastal environment, Trane will hold up better. With that said, I wouldn't pay a 3K premium for the XL18i over the Carrier.

I would also drop the Nest for a good HW Mdl like the 8321. If you want dehumidify on demand for summertime AC cooling, then HW VP IAQ model.

IMO

Good stuff pbx2. Thanks for that info.

Tigerdunes - dumb question, but which one is the Nest that you're referring to? I thought the Trane quotes had 2 Trane stats and the carrier was a carrier. Thanks for clarification and info.

What total price premium WOULD you pay for the XL18i or the XV over the Infinity? Just curious.

Sorry my confusion with another thread about the Nest.

My recommendations on thermostats for Trane stands.

I would not have the XV18 since it is so new pls the additional cost. Just for info, Trane had similar unit in the early 90s that was removed from the market because of low sales due to cost and complexity in servicing by the dealers.

I would pay no more than 1K both systems for the XL18i over the Carrier Infinity. Maybe not even that.

IMO

How do I share the load calculation without revealing the dealer and possibly myself? I don't particularly want to "call out" the dealer.

I am still waiting on 1 more Trane quote and a Bryant quote. Is it worth looking into American Standard? I know it's basically the same as Trane, but if it's $20k+ for them as well, I wouldn't want to waste the dealer's time. Thanks.

For Harlem

Thank you for your report on the XV systems. One of the local and well established Trane dealers still is operating his 1990s variable condenser. Of course, he can make repairs quite easy. He loves it. A product way ahead of its time.

Still believe OP's Trane pricing though is quite frisky and over the top.

Thx
TD

NCace: I agree with tigerdunes that theTrane dealers price is a little over the top for a change out. Have you asked if there is any room in the price? if the Trane is what you want. If it doesnt matter maybe the carrier quote is the way to go. Quality between the 2 is pretty much the same with the way they defrost being the only main difference.

as far as calling a dealer out.... worry little about that because YOU are the one that will have to live with poor unit selection. Make sure it is right should be one of your dealers priorities.

Here is the load calc from the first Trane dealer.

Only 1 Carrier dealer shared his load calc with me. All Carrier dealers recommended 2 tons upstairs and 2 tons downstairs.

The living room and foyer open up all the way to the second floor. 2 air vents on the ceiling in the living room (controlled by upstairs) and 2 vents on the floor (controlled by downstairs). Same thing for the foyer - 1 vent up, 1 vent down.

Thoughts?

This is the equipment suggested and price:

Model numbers:
Trane XV - $19,400
Downstairs:
TAM8COC36V31CA handler, 2.5-3ton
4TWV8036A1000A 18 seer heat pump
BAYEVAC05LG1AA 5kw Trane heat strip
TZONE950AC52ZA comfortlink thermostat
Upstairs:
TAM8COA24V21CA handler, 1.5-2ton
4TWV8024A1000A 18 seer heat pump
BAYEVAC05LG1AA 5kw Trane heat strip
TZONE950AC52ZA comfortlink thermostat

Trane XL18i - $16,200
Downstairs:
4TWX8036E1000A XL18i 3-ton Heat pump
TAM7AOB30H21SA handler 2-3 ton
Same heat strip as above
TCONT624AS42DA Nexia thermostat
Upstairs:
4TWX8024E1000B heat pump
Same handler, heat strip and thermostat as downstairs.

page 2

page 3

page 4

page 5 - sorry, I couldn't figure out how to post all of them in one posting. Thanks.

I hate to criticize but the load calc should be broken out for each zone and summarized for both cooling and heating.

The info you offered is not adequate.

Sorry

TD

For Tigerdunes:

I don't understand your comment. The load calculation is broken out for the first and second floors.

There are some things about the load calculation that should be addressed.

- The indoor heating temperature should be at least 72 degrees.
- I don't seen any values for areas of exterior walls and ceiling and their insulation values.
- There is no entry for window and exterior door dimensions
- There is no entry for the vaulted ceiling area for the second floor. The report is saying your upper floor is only 587 sq. feet. That's a huge mistake.

This is the report from one the Carrier dealers? He recommend two 2 ton heat pumps based on this report? I have to agree this report is inadequate.

Just to clarify, this is from the trane dealer. My current setup is 2 tons up and 2 tons down.

Based on this report, he suggested upsizing downstairs and downsizing upstairs. Suggested 2 tons up and 3 tons down or 1.5 tons up and 2.5-3 tons down, depending on choice of XV or XLi.

Carrier dealer gave me a 22 page load calc that ill have to figure out how to upload. Carrier recommends 2 up and 2 down.

My master bedroom and dining room also have 16ft ceilings but do not open up to second floor.

I misread your post and see the load calculation was provided by the Trane contractor. I don't get a good feeling based on what he did in his report and the recommendations. I assume he is also the guy who quoted $21K after rebates! I would rank him at the bottom of the list.

The 22 page load calculation probably has all the required inputs for your house. There could be errors but at least it says to me this contractor is making an attempt to pay close attentions to details. You don't have to post the complete report. Check it over to see it the dimensions make sense to you. Check the design temperatures and the results. I would hope the contractor would answer question you have about the report after spending so much time to create it.

Thanks for the info all - very helpful.

So I received my last Trane and Carrier bids, still waiting on a Bryant. I've narrowed it down to 1 Carrier contractor, pending the Bryant quote.

I had to eliminate Trane. I was really excited about the XV18, but the second dealer quote came in at $17k after rebates (first dealer quoted $19k). Just not willing to pay that much of a premium.

The Carrier dealer that did the nice load calc (that looks correct) is offering:

Carrier infinity:
Both upstairs and downstairs:
25HNB624A003 2 ton heat pump
FE4ANF002T00 handler
CE2901N09 heat strip 10kw
SYSTXCCITW01 infinity wifi
Infinity Air Purifier GAPABXCC1620

$13,000 total for both systems, after all rebates.

Does this seem right? The quote is by far the lowest bid of the Carrier dealers. Is this low, or are the other quotes just high?

Thanks.

A couple of things.

Make sure dealer is giving you the "L" series air handler that has aluminum coil.

I would want the 9 KW pre wired staged heat strip. It operates in 3 KW increments based on demand and would be a good match for two ton systems along with your location.

I still like Trane heat pumps better and quite surprised dealer can not be competitive with Carrier.

If you are happy with the pricing then that's fine. But here is an alternative that has identical performance/efficiency numbers as Infinity , Carrier's Performance 16 heat pump. Also a two stage.

6936857 Active Systems CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING PERFORMANCE 16 PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HCB624A**31 FV4CNF002L 700 560 24000 13.00 17.00 25000 9.00 15300 1 HRCU-A-CB Yes 171 538 Yes

Drop the Infinity condenser and controller. Add the Edge Thermidistat. Should save you some bucks.

IMO

Thanks TD. I will look into the L series to double check - and the 9kw strips.

Thanks for the suggestion with the Performance series - the Carrier had already supplied that quote to me as well. But it had the Infinity heat pump as the outside unit with performance everything else. I've asked him to revise the quote - but it looks like the performance setup would be about $2-3k less than the infinity setup.

I really do like the idea of the communication with the Infinity setup (like the stat too). I'm OK with the price. I think that number looks average comparing it to other threads on this board. I think my 2 Trane guys were pretty high, but they are the only 2 authorized dealers in town.

Bryant Evolution quote came back more than the Carrier Infinity.

Thanks for the advice. I might put up the final 2 quotes in a bit to get thoughts - the Performance setup vs the Infinity setup.