You did a very thorough job of explaining your problems. We were taught that for every good job, a customer may tell one person, but for every bad job, a customer will tell ten people, or in this case, much more.

1. There are guidelines as to where you can install the exhaust of the unit in proximity to windows and doors.

2. If the water feed valve is in the closed position, you should at least have a low water cut-off installed.

If he dry fired the Ultra for even a couple seconds the boiler will never be right. Sounds like the idiot who installed it didn't feel the need to read the installation manual first. I bet he didn't bother to pipe in a secondary loop originally among other things. The Ultra is a really nice boiler, its to bad you have such a bad experience with it. I hope they finally get it squared away to your satisfaction.

You had a most unfortunate experience. The key here of course is choosing the right contractor. All heating installations will suffer from poor installations and the manufacturer is only as good as his local support.

This support quality varies a great deal regardless of manufacturer.

The fact that your boiler works as advertised is evidence to the fact. I would not worry about the ill-effects of your original installation but depend on your new contractor to regularly service your very efficient boiler.

Contractors should be factory certified but the factories have not bought into the obvious benefits of factory training and certification and thus suffer the willy-nilly pitfalls that come from a serious lack of commitment to training.

Your decision to install a mod/con boiler was the right thing to do.

MA

badgerboilermn wrote:
> All heating installations will suffer from poor installations and the manufacturer is only as good as his local support.

Are you saying that Tom from Weil McLain with his expert credentials did not know that the water intake valve should be left open so the system is not starved of water and shuts down?

I told Tom that the system was intermittently ejecting water. As it did not happen in the one or two minutes he ran the system, he concluded it does not happen. How could I take him seriously?

> Contractors should be factory certified but the factories have not bought into the obvious benefits of factory training and certification and thus suffer the willy-nilly pitfalls that come from a serious lack of commitment to training.

Weil McLain should explain how it trains and certifies its installers. As Tom trains Weil McLain installers, that might explain why many do not know what they are doing.

All install problems that I have read.

Does Sherwin Williams teach how to prepare a surface, hold and stroke a brush, no.

Does Charmglow teach how to grill, no.

Does Autozone teach how to install brake pads, no

Does Insinkerator teach plumbers how to install garbage disposers, no.

I read no accountability of the installers, were they checked, references, job pictures, experience, or was it about price?

Piping changes required, unsupported venting, improper terminations, all install errors, how is Weil McLain responsible for this?

Contracting licenses are nice, but when you hired your installing contractor, how did you check his credentials??

Very good points zl, and I like that reasoning. Even the service rep, the only thing he knows is what WMC teaches him. Probably a college grad with a degree in marketing or something and absolutely no heating field experience.

zl very nice. lets not hold them responsible for the incompetence. Actually if you were to go to the web site the do claim to offer proffesional support and training.they do offer a warranty so yes you do hold them responsible

Training is offered everywhere, if you willing to attend and more importantly capable of absorbing it.

9x out of 10, just reading comprehending and following the installation manual will provide an acceptable install, but countless times it is not done.

Too many times Ive witnessed, and sometimes testified in cases such as this and the homeowner and installer slams the product, only for me to point out that if page 9,11 & 12 were followed as written for a 8th grader, the installation wouldnt be having these problems, case closed.

Wow! Sorry you have had this experience. Yes, the installer/HVAC contractor was mainly at fault, but there is no excuse for the Weil McLain rep not knowing what to do, nor is there any excuse for the company's failure to treat your problem seriously and work to correct it rather than covering their own a...s
We had a WM gas fired boiler in the house I grew up in. We never once had a problem with it. It was probably the most dependable thing in the house. When we moved away, it was in top shape and had been running for about 40 years. You just couldn't kill it.

Yes, contractors need to know how to install. Our problem was that the Weil Mclain boiler exhaust was too loud, and that NOBODY, including the Weil Mclain troubleshooter, could figure out how to make it quiet. The boiler clearly should not have been sold for residential settings.

When we asked Weil Mclain to help deal with the problem (even offer technical advice) all they did was try to avoid responsibility. So frustrating! We now have a quieter boiler, and Weil Mclain reps won't answer our emails.

Again, sorry to hear of your troubles, but you should know, it wouldn't matter which boiler manufacturer you picked, in that efficiency, they all all use near identical venters and designs. Unless they installed it wrong, once again they will all be as noisy.

With regards to Weil McLain Boiler Reps, unless you call them directly at the home office, or receive an actual business card, the person that showed up to inspect the boiler may not be who you think he/she is. Many times a contracted manufacturers rep, distributor employee or contractors freind may be there to fill in. Sad but true, remember this bad installer is trying to cover tracks without further expense.

As a former one, and the complaint finally getting to me, I have been told that my boss already looked at it, I say really, what was his name? By the way reps don't drive service trucks.

To zl700, I was definitely dealing with Weil McLain employees. They did not drive service trucks when they visited my house. Tom's manager, Mike, answered the phone when I called him at Weil McLain. Tom does Weil McLain training and seminars for heating contractors.

Here is an update on my Weil McLain boiler.

The Weil McLain Ultra heat exchanger started to leak 5 years and 2 months after installation. That means it had to be replaced.

Between six and 10 years, the Weil McLain warranty included replacing the heart exchanger for free, but not the labor.

Mike was the Weil McLain rep who came to my house after the system was re-installed with an engineer who checked out the system. Mike was Tom's manager. Mike attempted to sooth this angry homeowner by promising that Weil McLain would extend the warranty. Mike never fulfilled his promise. I phoned, emailed and mailed him repeatedly to confirm his promise. But he never did. I wrote corporate executives and the conglomerate that owns Weil McLain. I never received a response. These communications were before the heat exchanger failed.

I should have video recorded Mike's promise. My wife and the second heating contractor heard Mike's promise. I ended up paying for the labor.

The lack of response is why I posted my story. I knew Weil McLain would renege on Mike's promise. His promise was to make up for the terrible experiences I had with Tom. Instead his reneging on the promise only reinforced the lack of ethics I experienced with Weil McLain's people.

In conclusion, my experience demonstrates that Weil McLain Ultra boilers are not reliable and that Weil McLain people are not to be trusted. I seriously doubt that the Weil McLain Ultra boiler in my house will last 20 years.

As a follow up to this thread, the pressure reducing fill valve is always supposed to be closed. It is not designed as an automatic fill valve and leaving it open can mask problems or possibly create explosion due to the sudden input of cold water. This is stated over ten times in the installation literature of these valves. Standard practice however is that contractors leave the valve open and think that it is supposed to be that way. Now you know. Sorry to hear of your trouble with a normally good product.

B & G is one of the few mfrs that recommends closing the manual valve after the system is up to pressure. Honeywell and Taco consider it to be an automatic valve to maintain constant pressure in the system. One exception would be if the system contains antifreeze. A low water cutoff should definitely be installed and the feed valve turned off to prevent fresh water from feeding in if there should be a leak which would dilute the mix.

I was thinking of buying a Weil-McLain Ultra Boiler to try to reduce energy consumption and do something good for the environment. Based on this report, and reports I have read at other internet sites, I am going to avoid such a purchase. I agree with the Weil McLain biased person (zl700), that WM should not be held financially responsible for botched up installation jobs. On the other hand, WM is at fault if they aren't willing to send a WM-employed engineer to inspect the job, or if they are not willing to identify in writing of incorrect installation so the consumer can sue the installer. In addition, WM is at fault if they do not honor the promises its employees make in the field. Also, shouldn't WM send a WM employed engineer to inspect the first several installations of a new installer?

Weil McLain may make a decent product, but they seem to have very little integrity when it comes to situations where consumers have been victimized by bad installers. WM should be joining forces with consumers to rid these installers from the industry. Instead, they seem more focused on avoiding liability. Therefore, Weil-McLain has a severe integrity issue on their hands. Making a good product is not enough for something that costs a lot more than a garbage disposal, requires considerably more engineering to install, and is supposed to last 20 years. WM should be making some effort to ensure their customers are benefiting the full value of their product. SPX's claim of ethics and integrity appears to be pure marketing, with very little substance. Shame on Weil-McLain management. You all deserve coal for Christmas for allowing your customers to be treated this way, just so you can earn your bonuses by achieving annual profit goals.

Unfortunate as a heating contractor who services and installs Ultra boilers I see my share of incorrect Ultra boiler installations.
I really don't understand why this happens all one has to do is follow the installation instructions to the letter and the boiler will work as designed.

I am assuming you have a very large house or your contractor also grossly oversized the boiler.

The Ultra boiler is designed for a low water temperature application
If you hook it to a high temperature radiation application you will see little fuel savings in the cooler months.

Your next problem with the Ultra will be a leak of water from the aluminum exhaust connection at the bottom of the boiler,this is what I am dealing with on one of my original installations.

I have learned my lesson never install a condensing boiler made of cast aluminum.

e

In two years I had to change two water heaters.WEil maclain was unresponsive and warranties did not cover all replacement costs.The water tanks leaked and rusted within a year.Based on the advice and intensive reserch I finally ate the cost and installed another brand.

PSE&G has a contract with this company Weil Mclain. I don't know how they got the deal with PSE&G but it is such a disappoinment to hear all negative comments about this company. I was about to choose this company since PSE&G has a contract with this company and they offer 12 payment installments to replace the boiler. I don't know what to do.

I was really disappointed to see this thread. Another great company seems to be going down the tubes. We have a Weil-Maclain VHE (very high efficiency-- 93% claimed in in 1987)boiler that we installed 24+ years ago. I has been a real workhorse. It is a cast iron model- aluminum seems totally dumb; look how long it took auto manufacturers to get aluminum engine blocks to approach cast iron in reliability! We installed it because for summer work when I was in HS and college, I worked for my uncle who had a heating business. His experience was that there were 3 good boiler companies: W-M, Burnham and Utica in that order and that everything else he dealt with was way below them in performance and reliability. This morning , I had our serviceman out to replace a zone valve (he is the local W-M expert and sells them). I wondered outloud whether my boiler would make its 30-year expected lifetime. His answer was that it would make 50 years but that if and when I buy my next boiler from W-M, I should expect a much shorter life. Basically they are sacrificing reliability at the altar of a few percent additional efficiency.

I guess I will look into Burnham and see if they are going down the same road as W-M.

Will

All boiler Mfg have stories like this, the main reason is the incompetance of the installer. These Boilers need to be installed per the Mfg installation manual. There are specific reasons that need to be followed or you will have a story like this. Boiler Mfg should take part of the blame because installers should be certified to purchase and install this equipment. This will eliminate the push and pull installers and have the pricing be more inline with all contractors.

The blame can't always be placed on the original installer. I'm seeing quite a few installations that were done correctly then along comes a different contractor to do an addon that knows absolutely nothing about the system and does what seems right to him. Result, it doesn't work correctly, the homeowner gets upset with the original installer, who really had nothing to do with the addition, and wants it fixed free under the warranty.

Thanks to all for posting this thread. My home has a ~30 year old H.B. Smith/Dunkirk cast iron boiler (182,000 input BTU, 142,000 output BTU) that is still functioning faultlessly, and I am considering replacement in the hope of greater efficiency since this old unit has a continuous pilot and no flue damper. And this evening I came upon this thread.

Today a sales representative for a local HVAC dealer who sells and installs Weil-McLain boilers visited to gather information to use in making a replacement proposal.

My current usage of natural gas this past 12 months was 210,000 SCFT, and that is for two water heaters, both with continuous pilots, a variable speed, 2-stage flame Trane forced air gas furnace of ~90,000 BTU capacity with electronic ignition, and two 45,000 BTU gas heaters with electronic ignition in the garage which is only heated to ~43 degrees F when no one is working in the garage. I'm beginning to think that any savings to be gained from replacement of the boiler may not be worth seeking until the present unit is clearly failing, which it is not.

Thanks for sharing.

Dear sick of no ethics: thanks for sharing. I was comparing quotes and the information posted here really tells me that I should avoid Weil McLain.

i am a heating contractor and have used over fifty ultra boilers with hot water makers and have not experienced any of the problems mentioned. my only complaint is with the yearly service which should be performed on the boilers. if not then we have to use a sawzall to remove the scale which quickly buids up.(yes i said a sawzall scarry).this service cost about 400$. wheres your savings on efficiency. you have to be green to go high efficiency not looking for savings.

New products come on to the market to keep abreast of the competition and/or the current demand. The R & D isn't always 100% on the first productions.

Sometimes the products are tweaked after evidence in the field shows that a change is necessary and no matter how good a mechanic did in the installation, the product fails.

I was a rep for a boiler company. We used a dealer network who were supposed to know how to install properly. Another reason for a failed installation is "low bid" installers. We all know the adage of pay now or pay later.

My unit does not fireup after a power outage even though i have a backup generator 20kw. They reluctantly sent me a power interruption three minute delay. Same problem. Unit shows error code. Afraid that pipes will freeze. Going to file suit ASAP they must know that their electronics are faulty. Getting estimate for another company

I have installed many Weil McLain boilers and specialize in high efficiency condensing boilers. I have also installed most of the condensing boilers available in the US, both aluminum and stainless steel. By some miracle (perhaps reading the installation manuals and attending factory training schools) all of the boilers I have installed, from all of the manufacturers still work.

The most important thing to know in choosing any high efficiency condensing boiler, is that the installation is everything. NOTE: low bidders need not apply. It takes time to learn how to properly size and install the most efficient gas-fired equipment and "joe the plumber" probably can't hack it.

Heating contractors are not licensed in most of the country, but the good ones may still have valuable credentials, such as a factory training certificate.

Obviously, a manufacturer can't be expected to correct installation errors(often times treble the cost of equipment) nor to speak to homeowners over technical issues they haven't the skill set to understand anyway.

The answer unfortunately is not to avoid Weil McLain nor condensing boilers in general, rather to avoid incompetent heating contractors and if you do, your due diligence and still end up with a lemon condensing boiler...installer, call another to straighten it out and then go about your legal remedies. Your new (usually more expensive contractor) will possess the technical skills, contacts and trusted relationship with the manufacturer and is best equipped to sort out who did what.

Having been a contractor, distributor and manufacturer of condensing boilers since the 80's, I am familiar with all the arguments, but the vast majority of high efficiency condensing boilers problems have always been and continue to be, installation related. Ultimately the buyer must choose his contractor carefully, calling the rep before the job starts, or after you have a problem (more expensive) to find a good contractor.

Most important, make every effort to assure the new contractor, that you understand, that he did not cause the problem and you will be happy to pay him immediately, to fix your problem. Once you are up a running the contractor, rep and yes perhaps even your attorney can figure out your remedies after the house is safe and warm.

awsome- the feild rep sounds like he was a puppet making 150,000 bucks a year to use is college education (brainwashing) to tell costumers that their systems are installed correctly. Also, he has probably never had his hands dirty except when he wipes his ass.

I also was a victim of the Weil McLain product. I had an Ultra Commercial installed 6/1/2011. Since the initial install constant lockout problems. Either the low water pressure indicator would cause it or gas pressure. The technician would come - find everything normal and reset it. This went on and on usually every six or eight weeks. Mostly in the cold weather. Well the lockout finally happened during a time when we were away and one of the boiler pipes froze and burst in the attic. There is a lot of history on the boiler, with many many parts being replaced including the whole U Control - still no resolution. I just wanted all readers to know - DO NOT BUY Weil McLain - they do not stand behind what they sell - their products do not perform as advertised.

To all the Weil McLain bashers, you have a right to be damn mad. I was too after a botched boiler install on a hot water system. But, part of the problem was I chose an incompetent installer....in this case a plumbing company that had some heating business. After fighting with them for 2 months, I gave up, worn out.

What I did next was to hire a contractor well versed in hot water heating and the technology. We ripped out the only 2 month old interface into the existing Weil McLain boiler and completely redesigned the control and pumps. Guess what, it has worked ever since, and worked very well.

This is/was a classic case of poor, uneducated installation which I wound up paying for in frustration and money by choosing the good old boys down the street. I'll never forget the original installer's comment: "...we've done all we can and are finished with you and this installation".

audiomixer,

Keep in mind that Weil McLain trained the incompetent installer I hired. The trainer from Weil McLain vouched for the integrity of the installation of the incompetent installer, making it far more difficult for me to force the incompetent installer to pay for at least part of the reinstallation. The trainer from Weil McLain remains a Weil McLain employee today. And he still trains installers. Tom from Weil McLain, my middle finger salutes you for all the trouble you have caused me and many other homeowners who made the mistake of buying a Weil McLain.

Tell the world that wei[-mclain is a lame company. They offer no contact help. Installer in so.jersey bullshit me with a story about having to service my new $6000 unit burner tip by pulling it out from the burner unit [which is way way harder] when there is a large hinged door that opens easily to do the job. Door won't open wide cause return pipe too close to allow door to fully open the burner hits the pipe. .. why did they not move it since the pipe was cut during installation, so i got this friguprd lie. Can't call the company to see if it will hurt my 3-23-2016 unit doing it their. Better off dealing with a foreign co. that at least will off you some feedback. REWARD you get for buying American products, or maybe they are unAmerican toward us Americans who want to help our economy

Not happy with Weil-Mclain also. Have 2007 plus40 indirect water heater, less then 10 yo stainless still tank is corroded on top. Since it came with the house Weil McLain will not honor the warranty . Did not expect such a bad tank from Weil-McLain, and definitely did not expect such luck of support.

Weil-McLain products have become crap. They used to be the gold standard. We have had constant trouble with the indirect water heater since installation. Went through 5 aquastadt's. They do not honor warentee and stand behind product. Stay away from this brand!!!!!

I also have also have the also have the high efficiency unit that craps out everytime the temperature drops to the single digits. Today is day four without heat. -20 degree wind chills tonight. I bought this from UGI my local gas company. They are incompetent and now have partnered with Homeserve, also incompetentextent. I paid $13000 for this heating system and an on demand hot water heater.