For your location, I would want electronic demand defrost. Trane/AmStd has this feature. Carrier/Bryant does not.

The issue on the XL16i is overblown. Plus all these two stage step compressors have about 66-70% output on low stage. Again an overblown issue.

I would want an explanation on upgrading the breaker. Why? I would assume dealer will install another 10 KW heat strip which yields about 35 KBTUs. Generally on a heat pump system, the air handler, condenser, and heat strip are placed on separate circuits.

How has your current 2 1/2 ton system performed? Any specific issues?

If going up in size either Trane or Carrer, you will most likely need a new refrigerant lineset.

Before tearing up your attic entry, get the measurements of the opening as well as existing air handler.

Here is my general spec sheet for new system.
both outside and inside units should be replaced to have a properly matched system.

15 SEER, 12.5+ EER, 9 HSPF
best matching VS air handler
full BTUs in both cooling and heating for your rated size
R-410a refrigerant(same as Puron)
scroll compressor preferred
electronic demand defrost preferred
thermostat with "dehumidify on demand" feature
staged backup heat strips
new and correctly sized refrigerant lineset
10 yr warranty on parts and compressor

you want a thorough inspection of your ductwork system. size, overall condition, supply and return lines, insulation qualities, leak test, etc.

any hot/cold spot issues in your home should be addressed.

My personal recommendation is Trane/AmStd, Rudd/Rheem, and Carrier/Bryant.

Depending on your location, I would not purchase a new system that did not have electronic demand defrost.

IMO

@tigerdunes ... thank you for your reply.

The breaker for the current Trane XL1200 HP is 25 amp with 10GA wire ... it's about 15' from panel. Rep said a 3.0 ton Carrier two-stage will require 35 amp and larger gauge wire. He also was concerned about our panel having "a lot" of piggyback breakers for the 15 amp circuits. Our county apparently does not like them anymore (this was installed in new home) and may fail an inspection, requiring the piggbacks removed ... hence a new or add-on panel to eliminate them. WT# was my response.

He said the 4 ton fancoil will not fit up attic entry and only fit between roof trusses which are 24" OC.

My neighbors say the Trane fancoils they have had installed fit fine up the current pulldown. Appears some disassembly of units goes on.

Seeing first Trane rep this afternoon.

As far as the current 2.5 ton, it seems to be enough capacity. Only complaint is humidity control. If we turn it down in attempt to lower humidity, it gets colder, but clammy so hoping variable speed blower will solve that?

I'm a little concerned about 3 ton being "too big." Is 1/2 ton critical or does a two stage compressor address that?

Thanks again!

Tiger pretty much covered it. I will only add that like you,I'm concurned 3 ton might be too much. Ordinarly 3 would be reasonable for 1800 sq ft , but your comments about humidity almost suggests 2.5 is cooling space before humidity has dropped.
I guess as you have already concluded,it all comes down to finding somone you trust for the install.

Solid advice has already been given, and as such I don't have a lot to add to the discussion at this point in time (likely will as you are able to post more detailed information from the estimates). A few things to keep in mind, the first being correctly sized equipment which klem1 already touched on. Oversized equipment can and will generally cause more wear and tear on the equipment (you mention the unit has been on its last legs after 14 years of operation, which is a decent lifespan, but for a solid unit that the XL1200 was I wonder if you wouldn't mind being more specific as to the issues you are experiencing?). Oversizing also leads to poor humidity control as mentioned, and with 2-stage units it is still an issue as the system will typically not leave first stage very often. I think one of the common comments regarding 2-stage scroll compressor systems is that the latent (humidity removal) capacity is generally lower in first stage, making matters worse. At the same time, the system runtimes are typically longer in first stage, so this offsets it somewhat. I completely agree with TD that these things are often overblown; I would not throw 2-stage units out of consideration (I like them for many applications as systems should be sized for design conditions, which are not characteristic of every day of the year) but would rather emphasize proper sizing. I would seek a properly performed Manual J (load calculation) to determine correct sizing. It is true that 2-stage equipment only comes in full-ton sizes. Trane has a new line of variable speed heat pumps (XV18 and XV20i) that can modulate capacity in ~750 increments to match the current load demand. Carrier also has the Greenspeed. Of course all of these units are top-of-the-line and would be priced as such, however, so I'm not sure if you would be interested in spending that level of money for a second story zone. Just something to consider and keep in mind.

For the estimates I would be looking for complete model numbers of all equipment to be furnished (as well as details on the thermostat). Work scope -- new lineset, metal work involved, electrical included, etc.

As with TD I do recommend Trane/American Standard for features such as the all-aluminum indoor coil, demand defrost, etc. -- but these are not exclusive to these brands. I will state my opinion that Trane produces high-quality HVAC products.

Looks like you are heading down the right path. Please do keep us informed with any other questions. Are you by chance located in the DC metro portion of MD?

This post was edited by ryanhughes on Mon, Feb 17, 14 at 15:13

A couple of things that bear repeating.

What are the issues with the XL1200 HP condenser that you are considering replacing? In its day , this model was regarded as a dependable workhouse.

As long as current model was keeping up with your summertime temps, you were probably sized correctly and should have had some longer runtimes to provide good dehumidification. This issue deserves some clarification.

IMO

Thanks, all, for your very helpful comments.

@ryanhughes ... we are located in Annapolis.

As far a current unit, I admit to having a bad attitude towards it as so many have already been replaced in our neighborhood. It started losing cooling capacity three years ago in August, could not satisfy tstat. R134 added which lasted until fall. No leak detected. Each season the leak progressed, but could not be found. Two firms tested for it, but neither thought it was the line set. This past spring it began icing up and two different times, several weeks apart, several things went wrong with the defrost. That was eventually fixed and no problem since. It is now apparently almost "out" of refrigerant after four months and I refuse to keep replenishing. Running on emerg. strips for last 6 weeks with daily use of 160 kWh :(

So, first Carrier quotes below. Prices seem quite high so withholding until I have all prices in. Tstats are Performance TP-PRH-A for the two lower-end systems and Infinity Touch Control SYSTXCCITN01 for the Infinity and Greenspeed. AprilAire 2410 or Carrier media cabinet. He recommends the Carrier. Claims easier to replace media. Two yrs. parts and labor, 10 yr. parts. Carrier rebates to be announced in March so none credited.

Manual J summary:
Net req. 2.496 tons, Sensible/Latent 89/11%, Total Btuh 29,951
Recommended: 2.897 tons, Sensible/Latent 77/23%, Total Btuh 34,764

This based on 1419 sq. ft. I'm sure we missed a few hundred as a few closets left out and I estimated a few rooms for him.

First two systems are 30k BTU, second two are 36k BTU
10 kW heat strip

"COMFORT" AHRI 3645735 25HBC530A**30 FV4CNF005

"PERFORMANCE" AHRI 3676240 25HCC530A**30 FV4CNF005

"INFINITY" AHRI 5477866 25HNB636A**31 FE4ANF005

"GREENSPEED" AHRI 4616934 25VNA036A**30 FE5ANF005

I have a 2.5t XL14i with a variable speed furnace. This is a single stage unit. The variable speed furnace takes care of humidity removal by running at low speed at startup for several minutes. Then it picks up speed for full cooling power.

This would probably be a cheaper alternative to a 2 stage compressor.

Being really chilly this year, this is the first year I've noticed the unit going into defrost. Previous years I never really noticed more than once or twice.

The two Man j load calcs deserve clarification and explanation.

I don't know what your budget is.

I personally think the Greenspeed is overkill and the price difference can not be justified as far as payback.

Both the comfort and performance HP systems are solid equipment. Keep in mind, both these condensers are available in 3 ton size if actually called for. Pay attention to the design temps both inside/outside that were used for both cooling and heating. Get the load calcs in writing so you can review.

IMO

Uploading what I have for load analysis. I've requested more info. As I mentioned, this is short by a good 300-350 sq. ft.

Yes, @td, the Greenspeed was quite expensive ... over $15k. It may be worth it in the long run, I don't know, but I generally do not feel highest-end tech worth the premium over second-best. If cost were no object, I'd probably be looking at geothermal. I expect this to come in between $7.5k-$8.5k for an Infinity or XL16 level system. Less for single stage condenser unit.

What design temps were used?

Are you in a coastal situation?

Is this Salti's friend?

Perhaps Ryan will see this and can recommend a dealer for your area.

IMO

This post was edited by tigerdunes on Tue, Feb 18, 14 at 8:59

Waiting on more sheets of the Manual J so do not know temps. Near salt water, but 1000' ft from high-tide and in the woods, so no obvious salt issues anywhere on house, cars, etc.

Don't know Salti.

Hope Ryan will recommend someone :)

Thx, again! More to follow as it comes in.

If you are 1000 ft from high tide, you are in a coastal situation.

IMO

AHRI matching numbers on the Comfort and Performance systems.

3645735 Active Systems CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING COMFORT SERIES PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HBC530A**30 FV4CN(B,F)005 875 29000 13.00 16.00 27600 9.00 16800 1 HRCU-A-CB 219 646 Yes

3676240 Active Systems CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING PERFORMANCE SERIES PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HCC530A**30 FV4CN(B,F)005 875 28800 13.00 15.50 27600 9.00 16700 1 HRCU-A-CB 225 646 Yes

I listed these recently in another thread.

IMO

Getting back with Trane info. He only supplied quote on one 2.5 ton system. As proposed, no electrical work required as current breakers and supply line adequate, 10kW heat kit.

Includes HW VP IAQ stat, AprilAire 2410 media cabinet, flush and test existing lineset. 2 year parts and labor, 10 yr. parts, 12 yr. compressor.

Manual J, cannot believe how different this from first rep.

Heat: 25,734btu @ 14 degrees Fahrenheit
Cool: 17,963btu Sensible at 94 degrees Fahrenheit
2,058 btu Latent
2.1 Ton

AHRI # 5021599
2.5 ton SEER 16 EER 13.5 HSP5 9.5
XL15i 4TWX5030
XL HYPERION TAM7AOC36H31

Excellent system....

Load calcs are very questionable.

How much was quote?

5021599 Active Systems XL15I WEATHERTRON TRANE 4TWX5030B1 *AM7A0C36H31 1050 33400 13.50 16.00 30000 9.50 18700 1 HRCU-A-CB 253 612 Yes

IMO

Thanks again to you guys for all of your input! It's been very helpful!

So, I have a few questions left. A second Trane rep just left and said he would be quoting the XL16 and XL18 as new Trane numbers indicate that the old 15 is now the 16 (single stage, reciprocating compressor) and the 16 is now the 18 (two stage, scroll compressor). Should I be concerned about these model numbers and scroll vs reciprocating? The first Trane quote was for the "old" XL15i which I though was a scroll compressor, but apparently not @ the 2.5 ton size.

Also, at the 2.5 ton level, do I want a full ton larger fancoil (TAM7) or is 1/2 ton appropriate? Seems that on a percentage basis, smaller units would not necessarily match up with a full ton larger coil?

Thanks, again!

I would not worry about the reciprocating vs. scroll compressor. I actually like the Climatuff (reciprocating) compressors. They are regarded by many in the industry as one of the most durable/reliable compressors ever produced. They are built by Trane, and I myself like them but know others prefer scroll compressors. They are used less in Trane's product line than they were in the past. Seems the scroll compressors can yield greater efficiency ratings in the larger tonnage (>3 ton) size range.

As for the indoor air handler match, technically air handlers do not have a "capacity" per se but are given a nominal tonnage rating. The total system capacity is determined by the combination of the outdoor unit/air handler. The combination appropriate for your application would depend on a few factors, including airflow and sensible/latent heat ratio requirement as per your load calc (and compared to expanded performance data for the various rated combinations), as well as physical size restrictions. Capacity and efficiency ratings will vary with each matchup; generally the larger indoor air handlers can yield higher efficiency ratings, but the ratings should not be the sole determining factor for which air handler is selected.

Sorry, I'm not familiar enough with all of the service co.'s covering the Annapolis territory to give you a meaningful recommendation. But best of luck to you in selecting the contractor that will size, install, and commission your equipment properly.

This post was edited by ryanhughes on Tue, Feb 18, 14 at 23:35

I agree totally with Ryan.

Much ado about nothing concerning both compressor type and air handler size. The larger air handlers are used to reach the better efficiency ratings.

Trane's XL15i has proven itself to be a top of line and reliable single stage workhorse. It was released to the market in 2005.

Pay attention to those performance/efficiency numbers provided by AHRI HP Directory. All excellent. Pls the dealer will be providing HW VP IAQ which has dehumidify on demand feature.

You will need to weigh carefully the cost increase and benefit of any 3 ton 2 stage system to the XL15i system quoted. Regardless of brand.

The load calcs from Trane dealer should be reviewed carefully.

IMO

This post was edited by tigerdunes on Wed, Feb 19, 14 at 6:20

Thank you, gents. That helps a lot. It's hard to resist the temptation to go to two stage, but since it requires going to 3 ton as well I'm hesitant. I don't feel like I have any really well-done load calcs yet to rely on and since humidity is a big concern, erring on the side of too large (if only by half a ton) seems like a bad idea on a system this small. Half a ton error on a 4 ton system would not be as critical me thinks.

Since the first Trane rep only quoted one system, I do not know the cost to go 3-ton and/or two stage until I get the second Trane quote today. Carrier was much more expensive to do so and I'm not seeing the benefits to Carrier equipment over Trane. Plus the fact that the four dealers I'm working with all seem top notch and I believe either will do a good install.

Second proposal from Trane rep. Basically same (AHRI # 5021599) as first dealer's system for lower cost.

He also proposed the XL18i (new model # for XL16i) for about $1.2k more as follows:

AHRI #5575562
4TWX8036A1
TAM7A0C36H31

I do not consider this level of cost difference a problem and would gladly upgrade if justified from a comfort standpoint. Does the XL18i merit any consideration at all, or simply not?

Question regard Tstats as something different proposed. What model IAQ should I be looking for? Is the Vision Pro 8000 as proposed different in a good way or not so much? Does it offer the same dehumidification control as the IAQ? Not sure as have not asked why that was proposed over the IAQ.

Waiting on second proposal on Carrier equipment as well as final quote on American Standard equipment.

Sorry for this dragging on, but really appreciate your help!

5775563 Active Systems XL18I TRANE 4TWX8036A1 *AM7A0C42H31 1170 935 37400 13.00 18.00 32400 9.50 21200 1 HRCU-A-CB 251 612 Yes

It seems you want the two stage. It's your money, your decision.

As to thermostats, there are many models of the HW Vision Pro stats. The only one I would consider is Mdl 8321. This s same as Trane's 803 as HW makes this stat for Trane. This thermostat has overcooling feature for AC dehumidification.

The HW VP IAQ has dehumidify on demand which operates independently of thermostat setting. This would be my choice for either Trane system. Yes, it costs more. I would also want an outdoor sensor tied to either thermostat.

IMO

Yeah, I know, but I really only want it if there is a tangible comfort benefit (truly better humidity control). If that is only "in theory" but not a real world benefit, I'll stick to the 15i. I realize the payback on the investment is very long term so that is really not the concern.

Sorry, but I'm confused. Is the Vision Pro 8321 a Vision Pro IAQ? I thought the IAQ is different and the one I wanted? There are several model numbers of the IAQ. If there is one specific to the Trane equipment, that is the information I'd like to determine ... or if any of them will work?

The outdoor sensor for temp?

Thanks again for hanging in there with me. I think I'm about there :)

Oh, best pricing rec'd all-in as follows:

Trane XL15i AHRI 5021599 $7,200.00
Trane XL18 AHRI 5775562 $8,451.00

The primary benefit of the outdoor sensor allows for you to control the heat strip. If you don't want to control heat strip, then forget it.

Trane 803 is same as HW VP Mdl 8321. Has overcooling feature

HW VP IAQ is 9421. Has dehumidify on demand feature. Not the same as the 803 or 8321.

And just so you know, the correct AHRI number for the XL18i is 5775563.

IMO

Ok, I'm good and back with the IAQ, thanks!

I'm attaching the AHRI as the number is different than yours. Seems the air handler is different somehow, but I do not know how to interpret. Can you help me out with that as well?

Thx, again!

5775562 Active Systems XL18I TRANE 4TWX8036A1 *AM7A0C36H31 1105 825 36000 12.50 17.00 35200 9.00 22000 1 HRCU-A-CB Yes 256 754 Yes

5775563 Active Systems XL18I TRANE 4TWX8036A1 *AM7A0C42H31 1170 935 37400 13.00 18.00 32400 9.50 21200 1 HRCU-A-CB 251 612 Yes

Different air handler coil size. You want the 5775563 if going with the XL18i. Much better numbers especially on heating efficiency.

Physically both air handlers are dimensionally same according to Trane website. Dealer should know this. See below.

TAM7A0C36 36000 57 23.5 22
TAM7A0C42 42000 57 23.5 22

You can compare the performance /efficiency numbers.

I think I'm done here.

Good Luck...

Yes, you've been very helpful. You deserve a break, TG.

Thanks so much!