@TD - Thanks much for all that info. but i am unable to make sense of much other than the Heat pump and air handler models. What is the best combo available?

Just heard back from Proposal 1 guy.

He has dropped by the price to $8172 before the $500 rebate!

Details:
A new Lineset.
10kw heat strip
Model # systxccitw01

Has Trane dealer included any rebate?

Normally Trane rebates start in middle to late March.

As far as reading the AHRI numbers...

5776130 Active Systems XR17 TRANE 4TWR7036A1 *AM7A0C42H31 1170 935 37400 13.00 18.00 32400 9.50 21200 1 HRCU-A-CB 251 612 Yes

Condenser Mdl # XR17
Condenser and Air Handler Mdl number
37400 cooling BTUs
13 EER
18 SEER
32400 heating BTUs at 47 degree
9.50 HSPF heating eff
21200 heating BTUs at17 degree

All homeowners looking at new system should be able to interpret the AHRI numbers. Most don't.

IMO

@TD - Thanks much for all that info. but i am unable to make sense of much other than the Heat pump and air handler models. What is the best combo available?

Just heard back from Proposal 1 guy.

He has dropped by the price to $8172 before the $500 rebate!

Details:
A new Lineset.
10kw heat strip
Model # systxccitw01

@TD - The guy is giving me a $1500 'company' rebate on Trane.

Just spoke to a couple of other contractors and they seem to be suggesting the carrier infinity. Both of them sell carrier as well as Trane. One guy said that the 1 in 10 Trane Air Handlers have been failing.

Also, I am being advised to get the single stage option instead of two stage because of the relatively bigger size of the house?

Why come on this forum for advice?

This is funny. The Trane is clearly the better system. If it wasn't, I would tell you so. I have no axe to grind your selection. You asked, I answered.

That air handler is market tested. The comments you are receiving are nothing more than unethical scare tactics.

Now if you were considering high eff gas furnace with high eff straight AC, I would lean toward Carrier.

But the Trane clearly has the edge in performance/eff numbers, cheaper, and has electronic demand defrost which is a superior feature to Carrier's cheaper time/temp method. This alone will save you on nuisance and unnecessary defrost calls which are not only expensive but also contribute to unnecessary wear on tear on the condenser.

The last statement you made again is unintelligible nonsense.

You need these questions answered from the Trane dealer.
I would want to know if new lineset is part of the quote, what model thermostat, size of heat strip, and how you filter your return air.

I think I am through with this thread. Some people can't be helped.

IMO

@TD - I think we have had a case of miscommunication here. Let me reiterate that I deeply appreciate all the help and advise that you are offering. I don't know why you would take offense? In any case, I apologize if you feel that way. None was intended. You are very helpful and I deeply appreciate it!

Now to answer your question. Unfortunately, the Trane guy has not gotten back to me as yet. Only Carrier guys have reported back and I have updated the thread with their updates. As soon as I hear back from him, I will let you know.

Thanks again!!

Given the weather extremes we have been experiencing, I would suggest getting a quote on an Infinity Greenspeed heat pump. This is the most efficient HP heating and cooling, up to 20-SEER and 13-HSPF.

Also, with respect and deference to those that claim that Trane’s ‘demand defrost’ being more efficient than Carrier’s method, I totally reject this claim. If ‘AHRI’ is the method of measuring efficiency of all equipment and the methodology is the same - then the numbers count and mean something. Carrier’s AHRI numbers are better - period. What more is there?

Carrier should be offering very attractive ‘Spring Incentives’ for this system that should be well in excess of $1k. I would also suggest purchasing the 10-year extended labor warranty as well.

IMPO

SR

I totally disagree with above post about demand defrost. There is no way AHRI can know the number of times that defrost calls are eliminated or reduced with demand defrost. The same can not be said with time/temp defrost with 30/60/90 minute settings...whether needed or not.

This is a big deal.

I am surprised that Carrier has not caught on to this but continues to follow the cheaper time/temp method.

And meaning no disrespect to above poster but he is mistaken and I will argue this all day long.

TD

On demand frost feature is something which a lot of people talk about on other forums too. A distinct advantage from what I have read.

Just to update you guys. I had 3 other guys come in today and both of them were saying the same thing that the Proposal 3 guy was saying: 3T with a FE002 or FE003 is the max that my small return air duct can tolerate for a long term efficient performance. They said not to go beyond 3T. I am trying to touch base with the Trane guy (proposal 2) but he is MIA.

If any of you know a good reputable Trane contractor in Maryland please do let me know.

That doesn't make any sense since whether you select the 002, 003, 005, or 006 air handler, they should all be configured to provide 3 tons of airflow. On Carrier systems this is nominally 1050 cfm on high stage. The air handler model has no bearing on this with the Infinity systems being self-configured.

If your return is undersized, recommendations should be made to improve it. It is often feasible to do so.

The air handler you elect to go with should be based on your home's sensible/latent load needs, determined by a proper Manual J load calculation. Efficiency ratings are a secondary consideration after identifying the proper match to meet your home's load characteristic.

This post was edited by ryanhughes on Fri, Feb 28, 14 at 20:09

@Ryan - All of them are saying that the larger air handlers would be too tall. A 3.5T would leave just one inch of a difference between the air handler and the air duct. They measured the return duct and did heat calculation as well.

I don't want to get in a situation where I am getting an over sized system.

Setup an appointment with a Trane contractor to get another opinion.

The Trane Hyperion air handlers can do side+bottom return, which often helps in scenarios where there is a vertical height restriction.

So according to this website, XR17 does not do On Demand Defrost.

http://heat-pumps.findthebest.com/compare/899-901/Trane-XR17-vs-Trane-XR15

Also, its ranking over here is rather low.

So according to this website, XR17 does not do On Demand Defrost.

http://heat-pumps.findthebest.com/compare/899-901/Trane-XR17-vs-Trane-XR15

Also, its ranking over here is rather low.

As stated, the BLOWER tonnage is configurable since the BLOWER tonnage number is directly related to air flow. You could buy a 5000 ton BLOWER and as long as you could configure it to 3 tons you would be just fine and not oversized.

Where over sizing becomes an issue is when the heat/cooling load (determined by the Manual J numbers) is exceeded by the heating capacity of the furnace or cooling capacity of the condenser/evaporator.

I recommend you not rely on third party web sites on getting technical information on a HVAC products. The the information can be wrong. The ranking is someone's opinion about the product and is misleading. The goal of these web sites is to sell advertising. No one is monitoring them for accuracy.

If you want to know about the features of the XR17 then talk to a Trane Comfort Specialist. They can provide you with the specifications.

I thought all Trane heat pumps had on demand defrost, but that not be true. I don't understand why the XR17 would not have it.

@Mike - You are correct. Looks like XR 17 does have the on Demand Frost feature. Thanks Ryan!

The problem is that the only Trane contractor I am working with is not very good. He does not answer my questions in time or if he does, he gets too technical and defensive. The Carrier contractors have been very patient. I am still not satisfied with his explanation of using such a large size Air Handler.

I am having another Trane Contractor contact me on Monday. I will take it from there before making the decision.

I also plan to get the Trane thermostat as my current BGE Supplied Honeywell may not work with a Two stage system .

Maestro - I have a (non -communicating heat pump) XR16 which was rebadged to a XR17 for mid-2013 as a marketing ploy by Trane.
Twin scroll compressor.
Aluminum fins.
Dual stage for both heat & cool.
Nice 10 year parts warranty.

Also have a Trane Hyperion TAM8 communicating variable speed air handler + ComfortLink2 950 T-Stat to go with it.

Works marvelously as a group.
Love that I can set & forget & with zoning I am always mostly comfortable in all 3 zones of my house.
My bill has gone down ~70% in a 3K vs. when I was in a condo (pro-rata).

I have seen demand defrost mentioned in various XR level Installation guides (specifically the XR15) around the net but none specifically for the XR16/17 - which maybe more due to timing of the badging switch vs. the XR16/17 not having it.

I have asked around this board in the past if I can tell when DD comes on but no1 knew how it does on my CL2 t-stat only that if I show auxiliary heat usage - it must have come on.

I haven't ask my Trane Comfort dealer how to find out yet because I had been spending time harassing him about other parts of my install.

That said, I want to reiterate that equipment is secondary when it comes to HVAC purchases.
Load calc & duct calcs are primary decision drivers. Then come air leak testing on your own.
If you put in the wrong equipment before you & your contractor do those calcs, you will be wasting money & sacrificing comfort.
Spending $7-10+k & then calling maintenance all the time because your equipment runs short cycles & humidity lingers or temps spikes all over the map. This is a waste of time & money cause you are not comfortable.

Make sure you find an installer who can do these calcs & then show you how his equipment suggestion are able to meet the resulting output of the calcs - else you will be throwing money down the trash shoot.

It's a deal killer if an installer can't or won't do these things.

@pbx2 - Thanks for the input.

I like the Trane system as well even though Infinity seems to be the quieter one.

I totally understand your argument about the importance of installation and getting the right system. This is precisely why I am feeling frustrated on the different sizes of equipment i am getting proposed. I have asked another Trane contractor to come and do a Manual J calculation as has been suggested on this forum.

Otherwise, I have a pretty good offer for a Carrier Infiniti 2 stage ready.

I don't know much about the Carrier Infinity series but the Greenspeed line is very expensive but cutting edge from what I have read.

As for Trane, a lot of the HVAC guys here & on HVAC Talk like it & carry them so I feel like I can always get info if something goes bad.

But HVAC is such a black art that a good dealer relationship is the key cause the HVAC fraternity rarely dispense info that people can understand.

Witness the NEST t-stat debacle. Eeeash.

Re Tiger:

Truly I want to believe but I need to understand. I totally agree that demand defrost should trump timed defrost. Carrier Infinity ‘Auto Defrost’ seems to be a combination of timed/demand defrost and not simple timing.

When you say, “There is no way AHRI can know the number of times that defrost calls are eliminated or reduced with demand defrost.” This is true, as you cannot prove a negative but if we can’t believe AHRI ratings what else is there?

SR

EDITED TO INSERT QUESTION:
To further display my ignorance, over what range of outside temps does defrost occur? Or is over the entire range as long as you are heating?

I ask this because my heat pump is locked out below 25 degrees so defrost costs are not an issue if I am on Aux heat exclusively. Does timed defrost occur, for example, if the outside temp is 55 degrees? 45 degrees?

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I have seen it said here over and over that timed defrost costs lots of money to operate - actually my words, but that's the message I have received. (This is in comparison to demand defrost.)

I have oil heat as my Auxiliary Heat for my Carrier Heatpump. I have to assume that the "lots of money" would be reflected in my oil bill.

My oil usage is not a huge number - and I can only guess that defrost is a small percentage of the gallons burned, so I have to wonder about the cost statements.

Does anyone have any figures on how much the COST of using the inefficient heat to make up for the relatively efficient cooling is?

I am just guessing, but I think my oil furnace may run for 10 minutes when defrosting every hour and a half or so. (Please, those are guesses as I've never actually timed the evolution nor do I know how many gph of oil I burn.

Thanks for any info.

PS I don't know where it is to be found, but I have seen the computer model algorithm AHRI uses to accommodate various defrost 'schemes' when running their calculations - it's out there for the so inclined to examine.

This post was edited by saltidawg on Mon, Mar 3, 14 at 17:59

I'm not sure what this means but I look @ my run history for today & there has been 34 mins call for demand defrost on my Trane XR17 heat pump.

Weather here in central VA today has been freezing rain, sleet & mostly snow @~20* all day.

We are now 19 hours into the day. 34 mins of DD.

Does this sound right?

This post was edited by pbx2 on Mon, Mar 3, 14 at 19:07

pbx2,

Interesting! One question, if the outside temp at your home has been "~20* all day" may I assume the heat pump has not been heating, but rather you've been on Aux heat or Backup heat?

If so, why the demand defrost?

Again, I'm likely confused about defrost mode as I've not seen any data on frequency and energy usage associated with defrost.

This post was edited by saltidawg on Mon, Mar 3, 14 at 20:52

saltidawg - me too. Just as in the dark if not more than you on DD.
I'm just throwing out my data point to gain some community knowledge & feedback as DD is a mystery to me as to what it does.

So far today the heat pump has run in stage 1 for most of the day - lets just say about a 3-1 ratio to stage 2.

I don't do any setbacks & let the house be a constant 69* the entire day.
There is a limit of 3 heat cycles per stage per hour.

So I guess when outdoor coil frosting increases, & less heat transfer can take place due to decreased airflow, and subsequent reduction in heat energy available - then the DD will fit itself into all these cycles.

Which I guess makes sense that there are periods where the t-stat falls below set points & heating cycles don't activate right away - the DD must be squeezing itself into the schedule at these times.

That said, I don'd feel the aux heat come on during these times nor a signal on the t-stat telling me DD is on.

More questions than anything else I am afraid.

*Update*

I had a reputable contractor come in. He is on the Angie's list.

His proposal is this:
Option 1: Trane 2.5 Ton XL15i Heat Pump & Hyperion Air Handler System
 Trane Heat Pump
 Model# 4TWX5030B1
 Trane Air Handler
 Model # TAM7A0C36H31
 Heater Kit
 Model# BAYEVAC05BK1AA
 Honeywell Wi-Fi Touchscreen Programmable Thermostat
 SEER Rating: 16
 EER Rating: 13.5
 HSPF Rating: 9.5

He thinks the XR17 would be an over kill. But his price is actually a little more than the other Trane contractor who was giving me a XR17 with an 18 SEER rating.

I told him that I do plan to expand the house in the future. Now is he pulling my leg about this being a good fit or are these specs better than the ones listed from the previous Trane and Carrier dealers?

Also, he has ignited the two stage compressor debate saying I should get this single stage one because i may experience comfort issues if I go with the Two Stage.

I want to make a decision now. No use in procrastinating

*Update*

I had a reputable contractor come in. He is on the Angie's list.

His proposal is this:
Option 1: Trane 2.5 Ton XL15i Heat Pump & Hyperion Air Handler System
 Trane Heat Pump
 Model# 4TWX5030B1
 Trane Air Handler
 Model # TAM7A0C36H31
 Heater Kit
 Model# BAYEVAC05BK1AA
 Honeywell Wi-Fi Touchscreen Programmable Thermostat
 SEER Rating: 16
 EER Rating: 13.5
 HSPF Rating: 9.5

He thinks the XR17 would be an over kill. But his price is actually a little more than the other Trane contractor who was giving me a XR17 with an 18 SEER rating.

I told him that I do plan to expand the house in the future. Now is he pulling my leg about this being a good fit or are these specs better than the ones listed from the previous Trane and Carrier dealers?

Also, he has ignited the two stage compressor debate saying I should get this single stage one because i may experience comfort issues if I go with the Two Stage.

I want to make a decision now. No use in procrastinating

"...he has ignited the two stage compressor debate saying I should get this single stage one because i may experience comfort issues if I go with the Two Stage."

Huh? Is the reputable contractor from Angie's List saying you will uncomfortable if you buy 2-stage equipment? Please explain his reasoning.

The 3 ton XR17 over the 2 1/2 ton XL15i providing ductwork both supply and return has been checked to make sure it can handle additional CFMs.

New lineset and 8321 HW stat at the minimum.

IMO

Both the XR17 and XL15i are fine pieces of equipment. A Manual J load calculation should be done so that you know the specific capacity required for your home; that will assist greatly in determining whether there is a significant advantage in electing to go with the XR17. But with that said, I do like 2-stage technology and like TD think it has its comfort advantages when applied properly. But I would want to see a load calc before making that decision. That will also determine if the 5 kW back-up heat is sufficient.

A decision to go with the 3-ton two-stage unit should come with a review of your duct system and any proper adjustments (supply/return capacity) being made, as necessary, to facilitate the total airflow the system will require.

I too am a proponent for replacing refrigerant linesets whenever possible.

This post was edited by ryanhughes on Thu, Mar 6, 14 at 11:05

Guys - They will be putting in new refrigerant lines.

@Mike - His contention is that for the size of my house @1800sqft the single stage might be better. Not sure about that since everyone recommends the two stage.

I had the calculations done by a company and have shared it with a member here.

If 2.5 ton is the right size than should I ask him to get me the 2stage system? Which model would that be?

Thanks fellas!

I am not sure about the dealer quoting the. 2 1/2 ton XL15i.

Clearly a 5 KW heat strip is not enough either for defrost call or emergency.

For 2 1/2 ton, minimum 7-8 KW.

For 3 ton, a 10 KW is indicated.

Keep in mind about 1900 sq ft in Maryland.

TD

The single stage might be better on your pocket book, but I don't seen how it makes you more comfortable compared to a 2-stage.

You never posted the load calculation so it is difficult to say how much value you would get out of a 2-stage AC. I would also want to know how many BTUs the proposed single and 2-stage equipment would deliver before making a final decision.

5021599 Active Systems XL15I WEATHERTRON TRANE 4TWX5030B1 *AM7A0C36H31 1050 33400 13.50 16.00 30000 9.50 18700 1 HRCU-A-CB 253 612 Yes

5776130 Active Systems XR17 TRANE 4TWR7036A1 *AM7A0C42H31 1170 935 37400 13.00 18.00 32400 9.50 21200 1 HRCU-A-CB 251 612 Yes

Actually not a lot of difference except for cooling BTUs and SEER.

Still would go for XR17 system....

TD

Which system is more expensive and by how much?

@Mike - The forum web settings will not allow me to post the Heat load calc document. I can email it to you if you want?

@Tiger I just contacted the first Trane guy and told him I want the same HP but matching with the 3T Air Handler (which some suggested) and not the 3.5T unit he suggested.

This is his response:

"It's more the size of the coil in the air going across it

As I'v said before all you have to do is adjust the dip switches to get the 3 ton 1200 cfm

You can have the same matchup with a 3 ton air handler or a 2.5 ton air handler

But those two matchups don't get you 18 Seer 13 eer"

When I mentioned my fears of getting a system which would make the house uncomfortable or the system may break down. He replied saying that it comes with a 10 year AHRI warranty! Go figure!

So he basically wants to go with that combination even though I am not comfortable with it mainly because it gives away higher efficiency numbers? Why is he not willing to use other Air handler when it should work fine? I can only assume that he is a getting a higher markup with that particular 3.5t air handler and so is making that call.

@Tiger. I was not sure if we were allowed to post pricing. I guess we can. So here it is:

-Trane Propsal 1 (Details above) $7100 18 SEER
- Carrier Proposal : $ 8,260 16.2 SEER

The Trane guys will not give me the 10 year labor warranty. Max they give me is 2 yrs.

Whereas, the Carrier guy is giving me a 5 year Labor warranty. An infinity system with its thermostat.

This is what they are proposing:

Infinity 16 25HNB636 (3t)
Dual Stage compressor with Variable Fan
FE Fan Coil FE4ANF003(3t)
Infinity Thermostat Carrier: SYSTXCCITN01 I am told the infiniti T Stats are really good?

His Heater: FC 0901N10 (10kw?)

- Trane XL15i 16 SEER
2.5 T HP 2t Air Handler

$7710

I don't mean to sound condescending but you simply don't understand about those air handlers and the difference between the 036 and 042 model sizes.

You want the 042 to get your best performance/efficiency numbers, larger coil. Airflow can be adjusted within a small range easily enough based on the 3 ton condenser.

If you want the ext warranty through Trane, rule of thumb is not more than 10% of the purchase price of the system.

I definitely would want the XR17 system, new lineset, 10 KW heat strip, and 803 stat or identical model made by HW #8321.that is a great deal on the XR17 you have been quoted.

IMO

@Tiger - You are right that I don't understand those numbers and this is why I come on forums such as these to seek the opinion of experts such as yourselves :)

I agree that it is good quote but do keep in mind that he is planning to re-use the old T-Stat, old Lines, Old Refrigerant. Keeping all that in mind, the price does not start to look all that good.

Old stat is bad.

Lineset must be to manufacturer spec or you will be cheating yourself and a great system.

Old refrigerant?.. What does that mean?

IMO

The old line set (copper tubing) can be reused assuming it is the correct size of the new system. If not then it needs to be replaced. It is not the preferred method, but it is done where replacing the line set is difficult.

The new refrigerant will be R410. The old refrigerant (R22) must be flushed out of the old line set otherwise you have a contamination problem. This is another reason why it is good practice to replace the line set.

FYI - we can talk about prices all day long on this forum. Be warned the lowest bid usually comes with the highest risk.

Finally this has been beaten to death, but let's make sure you understand the concept. You can use a 3.5 ton air handler with a 3 ton condenser. The important thing is the air flow is adjusted to the correct speed. The 3.5 ton rating is the maximum air flow, not the minimum. In turns out in this case the 3.5 ton air handler has better efficiency numbers than the 3 ton air handler. If the bigger handler can physically fit in the space, then you can use it. You have to then decide if the extra efficiency is worth the extra upfront cost of the equipment.

He has written on the invoice:

- Recover refrigerant from the existing system
- Chemically flush line sets (Did not check the box which said Install a new Line set)
- Reconnect old Touch Screen T-Stat

I have told him to resend me a redrafted proposal which includes all these three items. He is just giving me the best price because he is cutting down on these vital items which you good guys over here told me to make sure about.

Does your 9 year old Goodman use R410 refrigerant? If it does then what he is proposing is fine.

What is the brand and model of the current thermostat? It still may be usable.

He has written on the invoice:

- Recover refrigerant from the existing system
- Chemically flush line sets (Did not check the box which said Install a new Line set)
- Reconnect old Touch Screen T-Stat

I have told him to resend me a redrafted proposal which includes all these three items. He is just giving me the best price because he is cutting down on these vital items which you good guys over here told me to make sure about.

New refrigerant, new lineset, and new thermostat HW Mdl 8321 is called for.

Dealer can recover old refrigerant and take away.

IMO

*Update*

In the end, I decided to go with the Carrier option of a 3T HP and a similar sized Air Handler. I felt more comfortable with the sales guy and the reputation of the company. I even showed their installer guys the specific installation tasks that I wanted them to do, thanks to Ryan!

I want to thank all of you for your advise. It was paramount in helping me make the right decision.

Strictly on the brand/equipment not the best decision. The performance/efficiency numbers, the price, and demand defrost clearly separate the Trane from the Carrier system. But that's OK.

I agree it is important to have confidence in the dealer and apparently that was the deciding factor.

Good Luck!
IMO

Thanks everyone for all the time y'all invested in this discussion. I live in North Texas and I am about to purchase a Trane XR17 4 ton heat pump over a Carrier Infinity 16 4 ton heat pump. Trane cost is $8,300 (reputable & repeat dealer) and Carrier is $7,450 (not familiar with dealer. I had almost made up my mind before reading all these comments but I this this really helped me feel better about my decision to go with the Trane. Thanks again to all the people that spend their time explaining HVAC systems to the less knowledgeable.

no model numbers provided for the Carrier...I personally prefer Trane HP over Carrier but not at an $800 premium. Nothing said about air handlers, size of heat strips, filter cabinets, etc. repost starting your own thread rather than piggybacking onto an old thread.

IMO