Good building and insulation properties for your home?

Have you asked geo dealer for references on installs that you could visit?

Any known neighboring properties have geo? If you don't know, ask around.

Have you calculated your payback and what length of time?

IMO

Thx Tigerdunes.

Building & insulation are good in the home, although we have a TON of windows. We did have a blower test done last year and the loss matched the square footage of the home which I was led to believe was good, particularly given the size of the structure. I am however looking into additional insulation for the attic. The floor insulation is good, but we have exposed rafters.

I have spoken to one of the references from my installer and it was very positive and am planning to speak to at least one more. I have few concerns about the dealer as they seem to be very busy, particularly in my area. They completed or are in process of at least 3 installs within a 5 mile radius.

Again, I'm not terribly concerned with payback. Calculated ROI is about 8-10 years WITHOUT taking into account the potential replacement of the existing system. If I add the cost to replace the four older A/C units, the payback is closer to 4-5 years.

The real question for me is performance and reliability particularly in our "strange" New England climate! I simply cannot be stuck without reliable heat here, nor do I want to find myself struggling to keep cool in the summer. So how does geo stack up against conventional systems from a performance/reliability perspective?

"We're also paying between $6-$7K annually in heating oil costs"

Wow, that is a lot of energy consumed in one year!

To give you an idea of how much energy you bought, here is an estimate.

$6500/ $4 per gallon = 1625 gallons of oil

1625 X 138,000 BTUs per gallon = 224,250,000 BTUs

In 2013 my 3200 sq. foot house in central NJ used about 42 million BTUs. It is the same age as yours. It is typical insulation in the walls and attic. If you did a simple ratio for the areas of the houses, you come out with 69 million BTUs for your house. My house has a very good southern exposure so I don't think it is typical. So let's say for arguments sake you house needs 100 million BTUs for heating.

Therefore:

100/224 = 45% efficiency

There is something seriously wrong. Your oil furnace efficiency can't be that bad. You may have poor insulation, leaky windows, and/or your oil tanks are leaking. You need to understand why you need so much fuel oil to heat your house.

Before you start sinking a lot of money into geothermal, I suggest you a detailed energy audit. It makes more sense to lower your energy needs rather than buying the most efficient system available.

Need more than one quote.

And you should make it a point to visit several geo installs especially with a similar sized home...

IMO

Thx mike_home.

Your calculations are pretty good. I double checked my oil delivery schedule between Nov 2012 and Nov 2013 and it was 1834 gallons. That isn't to say I used all of that during that period, but nevertheless it is a lot of oil.

During our last energy audit it seemed that we fared "okay" and I was provided little by way of recommendations for improvement. Perhaps we had a sub-par audit?

I am scheduling an insulation contractor to visit and to provide some ideas about improving our envelope. I might also look to do another audit, particularly a thermal scan given the cold temperatures. We have a TON of windows so I suspect I'm losing quite a bit, but perhaps there are some more fundamental issues that we should investigate.

Thanks for the input!

Agree that you need to get the envelope closed up a bit before doing anything about HVAC system. Don't be afraid of geothermal here though, we built (up in NW hills, where it gets a lot colder/hotter - you have LI Sound to moderate temps) in 2007 and have had no problem cooling to 72-75 on the hottest days. You will need Aux/Em heat though. We have electric, not such a great idea during 2011 Halloween storm, though Sandy didn't bother us. Of course in a situation like Sandy, you might have more to worry about than just electricity/heat going out.

So check into options for the Aux/Em heat and add costs to the geo quote - same contractor should install.

Other things to think about

1. Permits for drilling wells? Shoreline can be more stringent than up here. How close to shore/wetlands?

2. NG available?

3. What temp(s) do you like to keep the house at winter and summer? Is this going to be year-round residence? Full basement?

Our house is half the size of yours (just under 2600sf), and insulation/windows might be better being half the age, but our total electricity usage (no separate meter for HP) just for the past 3 years (when we've had some extreme weather) has ranged from 16,000 kWh to 18,600 kWh total. At roughly 15 cents per kWh, that would be $2400 to $2800 per year - again, for total electricity usage, not just heat/hot water.

Settings 67 heating, 75 (occasionally bump down to 72 on humid days) cooling. 4 people, electric hot water (with desuperheater), electric dryer (avg 7 loads/week) and really old electric top loader - these past 3 years include a teenager running XC/track and taking daily long mostly hot showers during season, every-other-day long HOT showers during winter - we have 80 gal buffer tank and 80 gal heated tank, I also run DW once a day (though that's new with construction so more energy efficient than laundry pair we moved with us). But we don't have a lot of electronics usage (just a couple of laptops that stay plugged in - probably shouldn't be), no video games, 1 TV (about 20 hours per week), use CFLs (1 over kitchen sink stays on 24/7, rest are shut off when no one in room). HTH

I would be interested to knowing the details of your energy audit. I suspect the windows are the main culprit of your energy loss.

First of all, donâÂÂt waste your time trying to figure out your oil system - get rid of it! It does make sense to install the most efficient system possible. If the price differential to install geothermal is about $10k and the payback about 4 ~ 5-years then this is a no brainer!

Regarding performance in CT, the only thing that came up during my geothermal training was that certain parts of CT have very acidic soil and that DX should NOT be installed as there were many failures of the copper ground loops in the 70âÂÂs & 80âÂÂs. Today we have remedies for this problem and perhaps DX can be installed in these areas. As an accredited geothermal installer and designer of geothermal systems I would not recommend going the DX route in CT. Stick with âÂÂconventionalâ geothermal using HDPE piping and youâÂÂll avoid all problems if properly designed and installed.

Your windows may or may not be a big problem if properly installed and do not leak. They may provide for high heat gain on sunny days in the winter, depending on orientation. What is a BIG problem is the un-insulated rafter ceiling. Other than modifying the ceiling/roof, one of the best solutions would be hydronic in-floor radiant designed for tight spacing and low temperature water with geothermal heating.

If the contractor youâÂÂre interested in your area is very busy that could be a good thing!
You maybe able to save some money by having your boreholes drilled when the drilling equipment is already in your neighborhood, moving that stuff around probably costs a lot more than you might otherwise think!

I would not worry about geothermal performance in a northern state. IâÂÂm in Montreal Canada, IâÂÂm SURE our winters are as cold as yours. ItâÂÂs not a problem at all and A/C is a breeze!

Properly designed and installed, geothermal should be the most reliable active residential HVAC system you can install. Ours has never broken down or needed a service call in the 10+ years weâÂÂve had it in our home. We space condition for a mere fraction of what our neighbors pay!

IMPO

SR

Here is a link that might be useful: International Ground Source Heat Pump Association at Oklahoma State University

Thx again for the feedback folks!

The conservation group that did our energy audit last year came out again yesterday to review our situation. It seems that the insulation is nearly as good as we can get it unless we want to pursue options with unreasonable rates of return. Our house was constructed in 1992, and the rep explained that given that timeframe, the insulation used should be adequate. We also have an adequately insulated attic floor.

The only thing they recommended is adding additional insulation in the basement (there are some sections that have no insulation) and potentially using foam insulation in between the header and concrete wall. He did mention that doing so many be extremely expensive and may have minimal gains.

The insulation work is a no brainer particularly given the 50% credit we get from our electric company so I'm going to do that immediately. They also recommended coming out and taking another run at sealing the home and then re-running the blower door test. All of this will ensure that I get the maximum rebates when I go to do the GT installation.

To address mike_home's pointâ¦the rep seemed to think that it was the windows that cause the heat loss in this home. We have energy-star rated Andersen casements, but we also have a TON of them. Nearly every outside wall is glass, and according to him, there just isn't much you can do about that.

Ohâ¦I did ask about the attic ceiling spray foam idea, and he mentioned that it wouldn't do anything since it's the attic FLOOR that create the envelope for the home, not the attic ceiling. He said if I even go to finish the attic I'd want to do that, but that I wouldn't get any benefit out of that until I did. Do you guys agree?

Thanks again for the great suggestions!

The energy auditor is correct. The insulation in an unfinished attic goes on the floor.

I suspect adding the additional insulation is not going to have much impact on your on your fuel bills. The amount of loss from the windows is over whelms the loss from the insulated area.

Could you install insulated drapes on the windows? You can keep them closed on hot and cold days, and open them on mild days.

We just installed geothermal in northern CT. It's a new build and we were very careful with sealing and insulation. So far we love the system. The heat is very even and quiet. We keep the first floor at 70, the second floor and finished basement at 68. Our electric bills which include the geothermal and all electricity have been around $220 a month. We went with propane for the back up heat and hot water. So far this winter (November through February) we've used only 50 gallons of propane. We're very happy with the system.

lepages - sounds like fairly large house with finished basement. How many sf conditioned space? Are you on a budget plan? Or was last bill $220 (ours took a big jump from Nov to Dec, with mid-month meter reading date, went up again in Jan, and meter going to be read again Monday or so).

Daily electricity average usage for 2500sf 2 story:

Oct 18 -Nov 14: 45.93 kWh (avg temp 45.5)
Nov 15-Dec 17: 60.12 kWh (avg temp 33.1)
Dec 18 - Jan 17: 69.29 kWh (avg temp 30.6)

Typically the Feb meter reading is the highest - avg around 75 kWh/day usage

Do you know what your usage was each month (I'm assuming we're paying around the same rate - 15 cents or so)?

ajsmama our house is 2800 sq ft with an additional 600 sq ft in a walk out basement. The house is new so we have only had three bills so far. Here's our daily kWh:

Jan 10-Feb 8 48.79 kWh
Dec 8- Jan 9 64.30 kWh
Nov 5- Dec 7 56.91 kWh

I don't think that the system was running efficiently until the beginning of January. We had the HERS rater out and they made some adjustments and balanced the system at that time.

Wow, that daily usage looks great compared to ours, and we have a smaller house. I need to get a blower door test done (I swear the contract said installer would do it - not that it probably would have told us much in the summer - but then they said they don't do them). Who was your HERS rater? Installer? You can email me through GW - I tried to email you but you don't have that option. Thanks.

We're not really unhappy with our system, spending a lot less than we did for oil in similarly-sized house (but old windows and cathedral in GR!) in RI. But looking to make any tweaks that will make it more efficient. Your new house is probably better-insulated than our 2x6 framed modular - I tried to make what changes/upgrades I could, but we were kind of stuck with what factory was willing to do.

I also live in Connecticut, while I do not have Geo I do use electric ... I have found that I can lessen my bill by going to what is known as a aggregator not sure of that spelling so I have provide a link to the various sites. You still get your bill from the Original supplier but your rate is much lower. Exp I went from like 12 cents a kwh to less then .778 cents an hour or there about. to me it was a no brainer. Just have your old electric bill handy when you call those suppliers and they do it all over the phone. Just make sure that you are covered for a whole year and not just month to month. Doing it month to month is cheaper but they can also raise the rate they are offering.

Here is a link that might be useful: other electric suppliers

" I went from like 12 cents a kwh to less then .778 cents an hour or there about"

Likely 7.78 cents an hour?

Also, read the fine print - how long at the advertised rate?, etc,etc.

I can shop around here in MD but it proved to not be for me.

There's no one out there that lives to give away cheap electricity - at least here in MD.

PS I pay more that 5.5 cents per Kwh for DELIVERY of my electricity - it sounds like you pay next to nothing for delivery????

This post was edited by saltidawg on Mon, Feb 17, 14 at 12:19

" I went from like 12 cents a kwh to less then .778 cents an hour or there about. "

That is a 35% drop in electricity cost. Something must be wrong with the numbers.

I have PSE&G and pay 10.97 cents for supply charges (6.6 cents for delivery). Most of the alternate suppliers in NJ are at the same price or higher.

I do have the lowest locked in supplier for generation rates, it was 7.99 cents/kWh and I think it just dropped to the 7.69 or so you were talking about. Roughly the same rate for delivery services, then some taxes thrown in so I think last bill was slightly over 15.5 cents/kWh all told.

big al,
So prior to switching suppliers, you were paying over 19.5 Cents per Kwh??????

This post was edited by saltidawg on Mon, Feb 17, 14 at 18:28

I remember a few years ago it was around 18c/kWh. Prices have come down, it's slightly over 9c now with the electric company - unless you're doing the peak/off-peak plan.

Some suppliers have lower rates, but the AG recently came down on others (mostly these variable rate plans) for charging a LOT more than the utilities themselves do - I think some plans were over 12c/kWh.

Here is a link that might be useful: CL&P rates

To answer your question is Geothermal reliable?

I have had geothermal for over 22 yrs. and it operated with no real problems for 20 years before a blower motor went bad. Not a bad record! My heating and cooling bill averaged $700-$800 per year. I live in Southwest Michigan.

Geothermal is a great system and will out perform any conventional system on the market today. The question is in how it is designed and is it properly installed. If a contractor can not show you facts and figures to back up his story. He is not doing his job. He also should be able to provide you with a list off installs that he has done.

With that said; using geothermal in hot water applications is a little different Animal and need some special training. Make sure that the contractor has hydronic training using a water-to water geothermal unit. If you have a radiant floor application Geothermal is the best. Radiant baseboard is tricky because most geothermal can only produce 120 degree water temp and you may need to combine the system with a boiler assist. if you would like more answers please contact me via email through this site.

Just got the bill from meter reading on the 18th, 32 days this Feb instead of 29 days last year (due to weekend/holiday) so bill was higher. But maybe setting Aux Heat lockout to 25 degrees (there had been no lockout set) helped. Avg temp this Feb was 22.9 degrees and we averaged 74.66 kWh/day vs last year avg temp 27.5 and used 75.10 kWh/day.

Once the average is above freezing the electric bill drops to about 60 kWh/day, then to 45-50 kWh/day when temps are in the 40's, then to 30-35 kWh/day as weather gets warmer, until we have to start running AC when average temps are in the mid-high 70's (meaning daytime highs in the mid-80's and higher - we used 39.9 kWh/day for the month we had a 10-day heat wave last year and the avg temp was 78), but still generally stay below 40 kwH/day until heating season starts again in Nov.

This post was edited by ajsmama on Sat, Mar 1, 14 at 3:50