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Rheem HP v Carrier Ultra High Eff Green Speed HP

Posted by SuperEgg (My Page) on
Tue, Jan 10, 12 at 21:15

We are getting rid of our 22 year old fuel oil furnace and 12 year old 5 ton Trane 1200 AC and replacing it with a heat pump and air handler becasue the furnace burner needs to be replaced. We have grown weary of fuel oil over the last 16 years.

I have it boiled down to two systems. Both systems are AHRI matched. Both installers are reputable, etc...We live in No. VA.

Rheem RQKL Prestige Series Heat Pump 15.5 SEER, 13 EER, 10.45 HSPF
Rheem Prestige RHKL Air handler.
Rheem programmable controller Model 213.
TOTAL installed job cost is ($9500.00)

Carrier Ultra-efficiency Green speed Intelligence variable speed Heat Pump system to include:
* 25VNA060A-Variable speed/capacity Heat Pump.
* FE4ANB006- Variable speed Air Handler.
* KFCEH3301C20- 20 Kw supplemental Heat.
* SYSTXCCUID01-V- Infinity thermostat/ User interface.
18.0 SEER, 12.7 EER and 12.0 HSPF
TOTAL installed job cost is ($11,377.00)

As I understand it, the Carrier HP is supposed to provide heat down to 0F. It is the cutting edge technology. But this system costs $2000 more. This appears to be new technology and I am hesitant to jump on the bandwagon of new systems untested for at least a few years in the real world.

Does anyone have any insight on the maintainence/ serviciability of the Carrier High Eff System?

Any info would help.


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Rheem HP v Carrier Ultra High Eff Green Speed HP

The Rheem system is very expensive. Only 2 grand more for the greenspeed is worth it in my opinion. The greenspeed should work fine. All it does it work harder the colder it gets to maintain the same heat. So instead of using more heating element your using more heatpump heat. Keep in mind though as it gets colder its COP goes down and it must use more electricity to work harder to make more heat.


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RE: Rheem HP v Carrier Ultra High Eff Green Speed HP

I would say it's no contest. The Carrier Greenspeed would be my choice. The technology is not entirely new. It's based on an inverter driven variable speed compressor. This has been around for a while. It's no big risk.

Purchased at the right time you may get 10-year labor thrown in with 10-year parts warranty. Presently this is state of the art for air source technology.

SR


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RE: Rheem HP v Carrier Ultra High Eff Green Speed HP

I have the RHLL which isn't variable speed which I wanted but didn't get because of a mix up.. and same series outside unit 15.5 seer 3 ton with visionpro IAQ for just under 7k. The variable speed air handler would have added like 300 to the price I think. I didn't have a bunch of ductwork needed other than adapting the airhandler to fit. Price seems high on the Rheem but also different area's have different prices so it might be worth getting another quote. I am very happy with my system but if the difference was only 2k more I would seriously consider the greenspeed.


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RE: Rheem HP v Carrier Ultra High Eff Green Speed HP

The price on the Rheem is really high and the one on the carrier really low from what you normally see. If some contractor is offering the greenspeed for that price I would take it unless you have some misgivings about the contractor.


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RE: Rheem HP v Carrier Ultra High Eff Green Speed HP

Thanks to all who took the time to post.

As far as price goes, I got prices on Good, Better, Best systems for Rheem, Carrier, Lennox and Trane from three reputable installers including the company that provided my fuel oil. Plus did some research myself.

What I listed is Better Rheem vs Best Carrier. There was nothing high about Rheems price in comparision, in fact, Rheem's prices were less expensive typically.

I asked the Rheem Rep about the Carrier Green Speed working down to 0F. He told me, and I remember he told me this during our original consultation, that the Rheem Prestige unit will provide heat down to 10F.

By my calculation, it's going to take about 8-10 years to theoretically break even for the additional efficiency cost of going from Good Rheem to the Better Rheem system. But we have humid summers here and this system will provide better humidity control. It's not all about recouping every additional penny spent. Comfort is important.

Since the average winter temp in No. VA is around 25F it's hard to justify even more additional cost for the Best Carrier since I don't think I will typically notice the lower Rheem HSPF and it will take longer to recoup the addtional Carrier expense. The EER is actually better on the Rheem. While the 18 SEER is impressive on the Carrier, I may throw the BS flag on a little of that rating since the EER's are the same.

Additionally, the Rheem Prestige is pretty close to the Carrier Green in HSPF. Which is really what I am concerned with. It looks like I will go with the Rheem and in 10-12 years I'll take another look at the Carrier.


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RE: Rheem HP v Carrier Ultra High Eff Green Speed HP

$11,377 for that Carrier system including all labor is an insanely good price. I had 25VNA installed a month ago and paid far more than that for materials and labor. Only difference was my system used the Carrier 98 Variable output gas furnace w/ hybrid heat rather than the electric heat. Also I had a Carrier air purifier in there, and it was a 4 Zone set-up. But it was 5 ton just like yours.

In fact, that price is so good, it seems too good to be true.

One warning sign is that I see inconsistencies here.

That Carrier unit's SEER is 20 not 18. And the HSPF is 13 not 12. Maybe those got adjusted down there for your region maybe?

Also those figures on the Rheem Prestige Series look too high:
http://www.rheem.com/product/heat-pumps-prestige-series-single-and-2-stage
It rates 17 SEER and 9.8 HSPF. Seems weird that you show HSPFs and SEERs that are not only different but out of whack in different directions. 15 SEER is just too low for the same heat transfer dynamics that result in a HSPF above 10.

Good luck


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RE: Rheem HP v Carrier Ultra High Eff Green Speed HP

Dave is right. 2 key factors you are forgetting to understand. 1 is the fact that you are needing a 5 ton. The system specs you were giving is based on the 3 ton from both systems, from both companies. Second, Is the region you are in east and west coast prices and temperatures are vastly different. The price you received on the Greenspeed system is right on the money. Hands down this is the system to go with despite the cost difference. I us a cost calculator designed by some of the brightest minds in the field today. The payoff is much more enticing on the Carrier vs the Rheem over a 5 year period. And what most dealers will fail to mention is the loss of efficiency that the Rheem will in-tale if not properly maintained(cleaned every month). Hope this helps you out even though it is getting to you late


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RE: Rheem HP v Carrier Ultra High Eff Green Speed HP

"And what most dealers will fail to mention is the loss of efficiency that the Rheem will in-tale if not properly maintained(cleaned every month)."

Can you explain what exactly requires monthly cleaning? Thank you.

V


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RE: Rheem HP v Carrier Ultra High Eff Green Speed HP

I don't think an outdoor unit needs to be cleaned every month. Thats ridiculous. Only a very harsh environment would I think it needs cleaned once a year.


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RE: Rheem HP v Carrier Ultra High Eff Green Speed HP

I decided to go with the Rheem system because it was less expensive and I got 18 months free financing. I got the maintainence contract to service/clean the system twice a year for $170.

I was using fuel oil at the rate of 125 gallons a month. This is based on my last two months usage (11/18/11 to 1/18/12).

I did some research and for my area the average house uses around 105-110 gallons /month for the 2010 heating season from Oct to March. Our house is larger than average at 4500 sf. So my fuel oil consumption appears to be about right. At $3.77 / gallon for fuel I was spending $470/month to heat this house.

We are now all electric. Our first electric bill (1/18/2012 to 2/18/2012) went up $70.00. The temperature during that time dropped down to the mid 20's. I would say the average temp was typically in the 30's.

The Rheem unit had no problem keeping the house at 68-70 degrees during that time. It doesn't provide the blast hot heat from the register like fuel oil. I knew it wouldn't before I replaced anything. The heat is more even throughout the house.

So at $2400 savings per heating season I will have paid for the new system in less than 5 years. And I will tell you I do not miss the $500 fuel oil bill every month.

Also note that had I spent the extra $2000 for the "more efficient system" and let's say it is twice as efficient, (it's not but say electric went up $35/mo for 6 mo instead of $70/mo) It would take 10-12 years to recoup the additional money with the additional efficiency.

I think there is a point of diminishing return with efficiency. Especially with the new cutting edge systems.


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RE: Rheem HP v Carrier Ultra High Eff Green Speed HP

"I don't think an outdoor unit needs to be cleaned every month. Thats ridiculous. Only a very harsh environment would I think it needs cleaned once a year."

The 'Greenspeed' would be subjected to the same environment (if that's what was being referred to).


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RE: Rheem HP v Carrier Ultra High Eff Green Speed HP

Sounds like you made a great decision by getting off oil and getting onto an air source heatpump. This winter has been very mild. Even if it wasn't the heatpump would just run alot more and get into the auxiliary heat more. Still a much cheaper alternative than going with oil.

I don't understand why anybody continues to heat with oil anymore. The payback with most other options is very reasonable.

Only $70 extra for the heat from 01/18 thru 02/18 is great. Thats a large house too.

I personally think the service/clean twice a year is overkill but some people might disagree with me.


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RE: Rheem HP v Carrier Ultra High Eff Green Speed HP

Hi Dave (DaveChappin77),

I am looking at a very similar system for my home in Long Island New York. Can you give me a bit more info on the cost of your install and the warranty associated with it? Would help greatly

Thank you


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RE: Rheem HP v Carrier Ultra High Eff Green Speed HP

Dave - The install was inlcuded in the $9500.00. I also have the same company come in twice a year to maintain the system. It has a 10 year warranty and the warranty requires semi annual maintainence.

Our electric bill this winter was $330/month with this heat pump. We did see that the emergency heat did kick on occasionly , but it had very little effect on the electric bill.

The temp got as low as 19 degrees and the heat pump was still working. We also supplemented our heat with a wood burning stove. But we had the stove when we had the fuel oil heat also.

We easily saved $2000 this winter over fuel oil. Especially since fuel prices have gone up so much. And honestly the only difference is that the heat coming out of the vents is not hot like it was for fuel oil. But the overall temp of the house was about the same.

Summertime this house is like a refrigerator.


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RE: Rheem HP v Carrier Ultra High Eff Green Speed HP

"It has a 10 year warranty and the warranty requires semi annual maintenance."

The Carrier parts and labor warranty does not require semi annual maintenance. This is something your contractor would like you to believe. You can't abuse your equipment like never changing the filter or exposing it to flood damage.

If the contractor is providing the labor warranty, then the semi-annual maintenance is effectively the premium for your 10 year warranty.

Your equipment would be happy if you had it serviced once a year, or every other year.


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RE: Rheem HP v Carrier Ultra High Eff Green Speed HP

They service AC in the spring and Heating in the fall. I guess they could come out once a year and do both but that's the program they offer. The system is completely serviced once a year.


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