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Heat Pump Replacement Decision (Tigerdunes, Mike_Home) help

Posted by LedHead155 (My Page) on
Wed, Jan 29, 14 at 20:15

We have a 1994 home with an original York Heat Pump. There is no gas line in the area and the aux heating was the resistance strips. My electric bill this month alone for heating was 450. We had to replace a blower motor last year along with fuses and other minor things. I was originally looking to add supplemental heating, Pellet Furnace, Coal, etc. Since correct install would run around 3k for that I think looking at replacing the heat pump might be a better rout. The heat pump is a 2.5 ton model. Temperatures in my region, Northeast PA were in the -12 for a low the last two weeks with an average temp around 15 for the last three weeks. The house is around 2000 square feet with unfinished basement where air handler is. Ducting main run is fiberboard main with flex duct running from that to all rooms in the house. There are some air leakage issues due to home age that a being repaired periodically. There are plans to finish the basement as well. The local equipment dealers I have to choose from are: Carrier, Trane and Bryant. I spoke to the Trane dealer and he did a neighborhood number of 8500 for the XL unit. We have used them for service before and they are familiar with our setup. What brand is my best bet for my needs as I ma trying to become educated on this in the short term.


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Heat Pump Replacement Decision (Tigerdunes, Mike_Home) help

I’d be looking at either Carrier Infinity Greenspeed or geothermal.

IMO

SR


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RE: Heat Pump Replacement Decision (Tigerdunes, Mike_Home) help

Ledhead

I suspect you are undersized by 1/2 ton. I would be looking at a 3 ton system. That plus the extreme weather this winter is contributing to your high heating cost.

New Heat Pump System

Here is my general spec sheet for new system.
both outside and inside units should be replaced to have a properly matched system.

15 SEER, 12.5+ EER, 9 HSPF
best matching VS air handler
full BTUs in both cooling and heating for your rated size
R-410a refrigerant(same as Puron)
scroll compressor preferred
electronic demand defrost preferred
thermostat with "dehumidify on demand" feature
staged backup heat strips
new and correctly sized refrigerant lineset
10 yr warranty on parts and compressor

you want a thorough inspection of your ductwork system. size, overall condition, supply and return lines, insulation qualities, leak test, etc.

any hot/cold spot issues in your home should be addressed.

My personal recommendation is Trane/AmStd, Rudd/Rheem, and Carrier/Bryant.

Depending on your location, I would not purchase a new system that did not have electronic demand defrost.

I would look at Trane's XL15i or XR15 or AmStd Heritage 15 (quite similar to the XR15).

Obviously your ductwork system needs a complete evaluation for improvement or possible replacement.

For your location, you want a new system with electronic demand defrost.

Don't know your budget, but expect a Carrier GreenSpeed system to cost at least 50% more than a conventional air source HP system. Geothermal up to double that.

What size is your heat strip?

IMO

This post was edited by tigerdunes on Thu, Jan 30, 14 at 5:50


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RE: Heat Pump Replacement Decision (Tigerdunes, Mike_Home) help

The Trane/American Standard models have an on demand defrost. This is a great feature to have for your location.

The Greenspeed equipment is very nice, but very expensive. You can get a quote to do the cost analysis. The Carrier rebates start around March 1 which helps with the purchase cost.

You have to address the duct issues otherwise your equipment will never perform efficiently. Make sure you have money in the budget to do this.


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RE: Heat Pump Replacement Decision (Tigerdunes, Mike_Home) help

I have the Trane guy coming out tomorrow to do a full quote and system check. He suggested the XL18i 3 ton system model number T4TWX8036. He asked if I wanted a higher efficiency and I said yes, i suppose that is why he went with the XL18. I don't know the current size of my heatstrip either. I will have to look later tonight.

The carrier guy is also coming out tomorrow to quote as well.

Thank you for all of the replies as well. It is helping me with what to ask these guys.


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RE: Heat Pump Replacement Decision (Tigerdunes, Mike_Home) help

You want electronic demand defrost. Carrier does not offer that feature in their heat pump models.

Unless you have deep pockets and an open ended budget, I would stay with a good single stage condenser like XL15i, XL16i, XR15, and XR16. Weigh the cost differences.

And definitely get your ductwork system inspected, upgraded or replaced.

IMO


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RE: Heat Pump Replacement Decision (Tigerdunes, Mike_Home) help

Will the efficiency gain be that small that two stage is not worth it?


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RE: Heat Pump Replacement Decision (Tigerdunes, Mike_Home) help

I think as a homeowner one has to weigh carefully the cost difference between a single stage condenser vs a two stage condenser system.. Then see if you can justify the difference and carefully compare the AHRI HP directory performance/efficiency numbers between the single stage and two stage condenser.

For your location, you want the system that provides the highest HSPF "heating" efficiency rating for the bang for the buck.

IMO


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RE: Heat Pump Replacement Decision (Tigerdunes, Mike_Home) help

First Proposal Back:
T4TWX8036
TTAM7A0C42
Honeywell Pro 8000
15KW heat pack
1 year service pack, labor, check etc.
ended up a 9.5 HSPF
13 EER
18 SEER

$8395.00


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RE: Heat Pump Replacement Decision (Tigerdunes, Mike_Home) help

A nice system.

You want the following thermostat HW Mdl 8321.

I feel that the heat strip is too large. A 10 KW should be just fine. Yields about 35 KBTU. If you elect the 15 KW, it should be staged. What size is existing?

Of course that system will qualify for Fed Tax Credit. Not sure if your state offers any HVAC incentives. Ask dealer.

I would want a pleated filter media cabinet. How are you filtering return air now? How many returns do you have?

I do think this system while nice is overkill. Your money though.

What about your ductwork system? You will be disappointed both in comfort, efficiency, and operating costs with a substandard ductwork system.

IMO

This post was edited by tigerdunes on Sat, Feb 1, 14 at 7:09


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RE: Heat Pump Replacement Decision (Tigerdunes, Mike_Home) help

The upgrade to the 15 KW from the current 10 KW is only wiring cost, the panel is less than three feet from the air handler.
There will be a pleated filter media cabinet.
The ductwork system was inspected, there are no baffles in the system. With a future zoning project i will have this addressed, only one line is leaking and that is at the connection from the main header which is an easy fix.

I asked about a smaller system. He stated that they no longer offer the xl15 or 16 as Trane has phased them out. He also ran the HSPF of those systems and they drop in the into the mid 8s.

As far as thermostats go, They heavily recommended the 8000, I even asked about the comforlink II thermostat and they said it is simply overkill. Do you know if there are seasonal rebates coming up for Trane. Carrier will be sending me their proposals on Monday.

Does the price seem right for the system? It is including install as well.

This post was edited by LedHead155 on Sat, Feb 1, 14 at 10:07


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RE: Heat Pump Replacement Decision (Tigerdunes, Mike_Home) help

Pricing if it includes the media cabinet seems reasonable. How many returns does your home have?

If you elect the 15 KW heat strip it should be staged and you should insist on it. Trane at one time had a 7/12 KW heat strip and a 10/15 KW heat strip. One or the other.

And don't be hardheaded about the thermostat. You want the HW Mdl 8321 which is the same as Trane's 803 thermostat.

Trane normally has a rebate program and/or other incentives usually beginning in late March, early April.

IMO


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RE: Heat Pump Replacement Decision (Tigerdunes, Mike_Home) help

Just for info...

Here are the AHRI matching performance/efficiency numbers for this system...

5775563 Active Systems XL18I TRANE 4TWX8036A1 *AM7A0C42H31 1170 935 37400 13.00 18.00 32400 9.50 21200 1 HRCU-A-CB 251 612 Yes

A bit light in heating BTUs for a three ton system but excellent heating efficiency.

IMO


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RE: Heat Pump Replacement Decision (Tigerdunes, Mike_Home) help

What temperature does this lose the efficiency?

Carrier guy said 7 on greenspeed

There is a return in each room where there is a register

This post was edited by LedHead155 on Sat, Feb 1, 14 at 20:05


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RE: Heat Pump Replacement Decision (Tigerdunes, Mike_Home) help

Carrier Quotes are back.

Carrier 25VNA036A003
-Infinity Series with Green Speed Intelligence
-Baked on Powder Paint
-Variable Speed Scroll Compressor

Carrier FE4ANB006T00
-Variable Speed
-Smart Diagnostics
-Enhanced Humidity System
Carrier Infinity Touch W/O Wi-Fi
Infinity Touch Pad Controller, Without Wi-Fi
Carrier KFCEH3101C15
15KW ELECT HTR STGABL w/Circ Brkr

$13,088

Carrier 25HNB636A003
- Infinity Series
-Baked on Powder Paint
-Two-Stage Compressor
-Steel Louvered Guard
Carrier FE4ANF003T00
-Variable Speed
-Smart Diagnostics
-Enhanced Humidity System
Carrier Infinity Touch W/O Wi-Fi
Infinity Touch Pad Controller, Without Wi-Fi
Carrier KFCEH3101C15
15KW ELECT HTR STGABL w/Circ Brkr

$10,460

It looks like I get better SEER and HSPF going with the Trane 18XLi for 8500 as the Greenspeed is well over budget threshold. Even with rebated coming the greenspeed will remain over 10. The high HSPF is very attractive and may be worth building the budget up to that point as spring is coming soon.

There was not much information provided with the Carrier system.


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RE: Heat Pump Replacement Decision (Tigerdunes, Mike_Home) help

Not surprised about the GreenSpeed price which is actually better than I would thought.

However, I think the Infinity 16 system price is not only too high but not even the best selection on the air handler. Should be the 005 model, not the 003.

6938381 Active Systems CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING INFINITY SERIES PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HNB636A**31 FE4AN(B,F)005L+UI 1050 840 36400 13.00 17.00 35400 9.00 22600 1 HRCU-A-CB 259 754 Yes

I assume dealer is including new linesets and media filter cabinets in quote. This is a must.

IMO


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RE: Heat Pump Replacement Decision (Tigerdunes, Mike_Home) help

Are the Carrier prices after rebates?

The Greenspeed is expensive, but don't rule it out until you have calculated the additional operational savings you could achieve for heating and cooling.

Here is one set of number for the Greenspeed:

7017320 Active Systems CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING INFINITY 20 HP WITH GREENSPEED INTELLIGENCE CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25VNA036A**30 FE4ANB006L+UI 1200 875 650 35000 14.50 20.50 33400 13.00 31600

The HSPF rating is 13.0. What is think is most significant is the heating BTUs are 31,600 at 17 degrees F. This compares to 21,200 for the Trane. This means you will be using the back up electric heat strips a lot less with the Greenspeed.

Do you have the last 12 months of electric bills? If you do I can guide you on how to estimate your heating and cooling costs.


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RE: Heat Pump Replacement Decision (Tigerdunes, Mike_Home) help

I will add this to Mike's post and let you be the judge.

Can one justify the price difference between the Trane quote and the Carrier Greenspeed quote as far as payback? What is length of time on payback?

IMO


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RE: Heat Pump Replacement Decision (Tigerdunes, Mike_Home) help

Just got info back on the Trane. They are looking for the thermostate that Tigerdunes suggested, they can only find the th8321u1006. He asked if there is more info on the thermostat. I will get back to you Mike_home later today with that information. I have a set price for my electric for the next 18 months at 7.99 cents/kwh. Does the difference in BTU balance out with the difference in the defrost cycles for the Carrier vs. the Trane?


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RE: Heat Pump Replacement Decision (Tigerdunes, Mike_Home) help

The Trane quote, equipment, and perfiormance/efficiency numbers including EDD is superior to Carrier's Infinity 16 quote.

5775563 Active Systems XL18I TRANE 4TWX8036A1 *AM7A0C42H31 1170 935 37400 13.00 18.00 32400 9.50 21200 1 HRCU-A-CB 251 612 Yes

6938381 Active Systems CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING INFINITY SERIES PURON HP CARRIER AIR CONDITIONING 25HNB636A**31 FE4AN(B,F)005L+UI 1050 840 36400 13.00 17.00 35400 9.00 22600 1 HRCU-A-CB 259 754 Yes

That is the HW model stat you listed.

And if going with 15 KW heat strip, it should be staged as I previously suggested.

New lineset and filter box should be part of the install.

IMO

This post was edited by tigerdunes on Mon, Feb 3, 14 at 12:59


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RE: Heat Pump Replacement Decision (Tigerdunes, Mike_Home) help

Does the electric rate of 7.99 cent/kwh include the distribution and supply charges?


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RE: Heat Pump Replacement Decision (Tigerdunes, Mike_Home) help

3 cent kwh for distribbution

so 11 cents total


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RE: Heat Pump Replacement Decision (Tigerdunes, Mike_Home) help

I am not sure what Mike is driving at on the electric cost since you are in an all electric situation.

Of course there will be savings on the Greenspeed system. But how much and how long to make up nearly a $5 K difference in price over the Trane..

The savings would be primarily on the heating side.

Ask the dealer for an analysis to justify the Greenspeed. If he is any good, he should be able to provide this info.

IMO


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RE: Heat Pump Replacement Decision (Tigerdunes, Mike_Home) help

What I have seen is the Trane payback, assuming my SEER and HSPF of the old system is 6 and 3 respectively is about 3 years. The Greenspeed is 4.6 years and lifetime savings difference is about 3k between the two favoring the greenspeed.

How close is technology to improving? Is it worth taking a jump now or will better technology be out soon based on experience?


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RE: Heat Pump Replacement Decision (Tigerdunes, Mike_Home) help

You are looking at this incorrectly.

You have a system that needs replacing.

You should be comparing the Trane system to the GreenSpeed system as far as cost difference and length of time on payback.

IMO


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RE: Heat Pump Replacement Decision (Tigerdunes, Mike_Home) help

Numbers show Trane system is worth it. Trane is the right choice as far as payback. The extra 5k is not worth the money especially since i have lots of defrost cycles now. Is the .5 HSPF worth it for the xl20 which is in a neighborhood of 11k?

Also, what is the model number of the proper thermostat mdl8321? They cannot locate one called mdl8321.


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RE: Heat Pump Replacement Decision (Tigerdunes, Mike_Home) help

Perhaps you missed Tiger's remark a few posts back, but model (mdl) 8321 is the same as the thermsotat model your dealer is willing to provide. TH8321 is the actual product model number. You are good to go with that thermostat.

I agree with replacing the lineset and adding a media filter cabinet to protect the equipment.

Also agree that there is a good chance the 10 kW heater package is sufficient, but cannot say for certain unless a load calculation is performed (and one likely should be in my opinion). As stated, either way you would want the auxiliary heat to be staged (dependent on proper setup by installing techs).


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RE: Heat Pump Replacement Decision (Tigerdunes, Mike_Home) help

I was trying to estimate how much electricity the OP uses to heat and cool his house. Once this is established a return on investment on the Greenspeed system can be calculated.

The difference in price compared to the Trane unit is $3800 if you assume the Carrier rebate will be $900. It looks like it would be long pay back period given a electric rate of 11 cents per KWH. Your best option is the Trane system.


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RE: Heat Pump Replacement Decision (Tigerdunes, Mike_Home) help

Guys,

You have no idea how much you have helped with this. I think I am going to try wait for the Trane rebate (March) and then pull the trigger. I may add zoning as well. If I add zoning is there any value of upgrading to the comfortlink II themrostat?


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RE: Heat Pump Replacement Decision (Tigerdunes, Mike_Home) help

If you're considering zoning and interested in the Comfort Link II system, I would look into into the Trane XV20i and XV18 variable speed systems with modulating zone dampers.

Here is a link that might be useful: Trane Comfortlink II Zoning


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RE: Heat Pump Replacement Decision (Tigerdunes, Mike_Home) help

Hi,

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http://airplusmechanical.com/

I guarantee you, All your questions will be answered.

Plus, They offer a free estimate inquiry.

Here is a link that might be useful: Air Plus Heating & Cooling


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RE: Heat Pump Replacement Decision (Tigerdunes, Mike_Home) help

For the above poster.

Obvious ads are not appreciated on an open forum like this.

If you want to advertise, then buy an ad.

Your post will be reported to the moderator and removed.

TD


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RE: Heat Pump Replacement Decision (Tigerdunes, Mike_Home) help

For Ledhead

Now you are interjecting zoning into the equation?

I agree with Ryan about the suggestion of variable XV condensers.

You realize though you will have some modifications to your ductwork system if not replacement. You mention the possibility of finishing basement along with air leakage issues with current ductwork. Lots to consider here.

You have time though to research and discuss with Trane dealer if you intend to wait on their Spring rebate program.

IMO


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RE: Heat Pump Replacement Decision (Tigerdunes, Mike_Home) help

I did talk to them about zoning during the visit. He mentioned it is usually in the neighborhood of 2k. With a rebate that number will drop. Bang for my buck would be to do that. My ductwork would be simple to add everything as it is easily accessible in its current location.


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