I will give you a payback estimate on your project.

Post back.

IMO

plus a deliver charge of $14.00

The way you have stated the rate is misleading. I think the rates are:

$14 service charge plus
First 30CCF is $0.7897 per CCF (CCF = 100 cubic feet)
Above 30CCF is $0.7897 + $0.2997 = $1.0894 per CCF

I am paying about $1.05 per CCF in NJ. I would expect your rate to be $1.00 - $1.15 per CCF. Check the rate schedule to make sure. Once the rate is determined a calculation can be done to determine the expected gas usage based on how much oil you have used in the past. The numbers are going to show this is going to be an easy decision to switch to gas.

Using Mike's assumption which is probably correct, I made the following comparison.

Nat gas 95% eff at $1.10 therm
Fuel oil 81% eff at $3.50 gal

Nat gas is about 38% of oil.

Extrapolating further, payback on fuel cost comparison would take between 4.5 and 5 yrs.

I really think nat gas service to your home should be pursued.

IMO

I guess I couds switch the furnace over now and wait on the hot water heater for a bit cause if I switch that out I would want an ondemand one and that's too much $$$ for me right now.

Do you currently have a oil fuel boiler or an oil fuel hot air furnace?

You have ductwork in place?

Post back.

IMO

Have you given any thought as to resale value if and when you sell your home as to oil heat vs nat gas heat?

I really can't think of one good reason why you would stay with oil heat other than the initial outlay to bring nat gas service to your home.

Payback to recover is set at no more than five heating seasons.

IMO

I don't see why an oil furnace would last longer. Where did you read this?

You need to replace your oil tank. You should add that to the cost of staying with oil. I would also think a new oil burner and furnace would cost more than a new gas furnace. You should do a spread sheet of all the costs of switching and not switching.

If you do go with gas, I recommend you put in place the piping for a hot water heater, gas dryer, and kitchen stove. There is more potential saving when it comes time to replace these appliances. I don't recommend getting a tankless hot water heater. But if you do the gas line has to be made larger. I think a conventional gas hot water is the best value and you will have hot water during a blackout.

No discussion of a heat pump?

(I'm just a homeowner.)

(I'm just a homeowner.)

I had a rhemm 10 seer installed about 15 years ago.

Also just some more info I filled my 275 gallon oil tank in Oct and I still have about a third of a tank left. I use an electrc fireplace to help warm up the house for about 3 hours a day. It riased my electric bill about 20 bucks a month

umm just sayin I used 400 gallons of oil at $3.50 that's $1400 if gas is say half the price that's a savings of $700 a year. I need a new furnace anyway so that's a wash plus I need a new oil tank at about $1000 so switching to gas looks like a winner...

In that time, Nat gas will rise in price and become closer in price to it's historical ratio with oil = only slightly cheaper.

Of course, if you're looking to spend money that you have sitting around- go for it.

Yes, it's absolutely true that heating oil forced air furnaces tend to last much longer than their modern gas counterparts - about twice as long. A well-made oil furnace (not all are, but most) should last around 40 years (if well maintained and not overfired and a proper combustion chamber is kept intact) before the heat exchanger develops stress cracks.

For resale, nat. gas helps, but Oil is not a big deal in the northeast because it is very common and most homes not located in urban areas use it for heat.

This is strictly based on the fuel cost comparison difference.

This is not about new HVAC. OP has indicated he may be faced with a new oil tank replacement. His current oil forced air furnace is 26 yrs old.

I disagree with a previous post of payback of 15 yrs.

Then there is the marketability and resale of a home with oil heat versus nat gas heat. I certainly would never look at a home with oil heat for many reasons beyond just the cost of oil. The tank, the environmental issues related to potential spill, and then the idea that oil supports America's enemies.

IMO

You said this is not about new HVAC.

Fact is it had not even been mentioned. With a 15 year old seer 10 A/C unit, I would submit it SHOULD be part of the discussion.

No one has asked if the oil tank is in the basement or buried outside. That makes the potential for one huge difference in replacement costs. (My basement oil tank is forty years old and I expect it will outlast me. Replacement cost now <$1500.)

The OP said it would take $4K to get gas to the house... a plumber can weigh in, but I suspect the plumber will get a nice piece of change on top of that.

An indoor oil tank, pitched properly, with the oil line from the very BOTTOM of the tank should last indefinitely - but real world, the tank should probably be replaced within the next decade if he stays with oil.

His 26 year old furnace, if well maintained, should last another 20 years without a problem.

Marketability of a home with oil heat isn't much of an issue in the northeast. If you have homeowners insurance, they need to know that you have oil heat with an above ground tank, and, you need to make sure they cover any spill, most do. The possiblity of any spill with an obove-ground tank is insignificant, and shouldn't really be in this discussion - if we go there, then what happens when you have a natural gas "spill" ? your house blows up (like many do every year) and you and your neighbors will be lucky if you're left alive, but, as I've said, these extreme possiblities are a waste of time to even bring up.

Irrational fears of oil heat aside (likely from those who've never had oil heat), If the OP has the money to spend, then, sure, do it, but if the OP is looking to "save" money, it's not worth it.

There are many decisions that homeowners have to make. Not all have a true payback. Some do with absurd ROI. But you can't always make decisions based on that. Like a car that is over 10 yrs old with a blown motor or failed transmission. It doesn't make sense to repair yet you must have a car.And certainly it would be rare to find a new car that has a reasonable payback. I think payback as fas as HVAC has to have a good dose of commonsense. You get a quote on a mid range HVAC versus a super duper top of line line high eff system. You are forced to get one or the other. So I would want to know can you justify the cost difference between the two with a reasonable payback. Commonsense goes a long way.

I can recall many times in my business career of having to make sizable capital expenditures. You always wanted to know if therecwas a payback and ROI. But there were some purchases you just didn't bother to make this calculation. You might ask why? Simply because the federal govt said it must be done.

One could debate this all day long. I won't because I am set in my ways. I believe practicality and commonsense go a long way.

IMO

How long does an oil burner last? What is cost of maintaining it for another 20 years?

If there are two similar homes for sale at the same price, and one has gas and the other has oil, then I would buy the one with gas.

How many houses in the U.S. blow up every year because of a gas leak?

I also think this is a no brainer. I would also being considering replacing the AC at the same time if the funds are available.

I am happy to help you build the spread sheet to compare to costs.

Re "If there are two similar homes for sale at the same price, and one has gas and the other has oil, then I would buy the one with gas."

While I would prefer gas to oil, I would never base a house purchase on fuel type only.

I live in Rockville, MD, a suburb of DC. My development was built in the 1972-1974 time frame. The first half of the development were built with gas heat. When a auditorium on new gas hookups occurred in 1973 no new gas hookups were permitted and oil was the fuel of choice.

There is absolutely no perceived difference in value in home prices in this development based on location (read heating fuel) within the development. (The houses range from $480K to $600K.)

I went house hunting in Simsbury, CT, last Feb and saw not one single house with gas heat - all oil fueled. This is the norm in that area and certainly would not have caused us to not buy due to oil.

In my travels with the Navy Submarine force I owned houses with gas heat. oil heat, resistive electric heat, no A/C, with A/C, forced air, baseboard only, and for the last two years a heat pump.

My first choice would be a heat pump with a gas furnace for virtually any place I would see us living. That said, we'd not eliminate any house because of a HVAC setup other than that.

It would be interesting to know the number of oil to nat gas conversions that take place each year in residential marketplace.

Obviously there are still many locations especially in Northeast US dependent upon fuel oil for home heating.

Perhaps there are fuel oil jobbers who read this forum and could comment on whether their business is growing or declining.

Right or wrong, I suspect most homeowners who have oil heating would love to convert if they could because of the operating cost not because of the comfort that one gets from fuel oil heating. Too bad propane prices tend to track fuel oil prices.

IMO

Thoughts?

There is little savings by switching from oil to propane. You might as well keep your oil furnace and replace the oil tank in the future.

The heat pump will cost at least $500 more than the AC. There are some extra costs with installing a propane tank.

If you plan to live in the house for another 10 years your best investment is to switch to natural gas.

IMO

So that's why I came up with the HP idea with propane back up (also my wife would be able to get her gas stove she's been wanting) I figured if you took the money that I would spend just on getting the NG to my house I could get half or more of a very effiecent system.

If you really paid $110 for 519kwh then your average rate is $0.21/kwh. That is very expensive, even more expensive than what I pay in NJ.

What not have the gas company come out an give you an actual estimate on what it would cost to run the pipe to your house? Ask them if the price would be lower if your next door neighbors wanted to participate. Ask what incentives they can offer you and if you can pay the cost over a period of time.

In a prior post it was stated the cost of heating your home with natural gas was 38% that of fuel oil. So if you are paying $1350 now, you will be saving about $837 per year. After 5 years you will have saved $4185, and after 10 years you will have saved $8370 assuming fuel oil and gas prices stay the same.

It would be helpful if you create a spreadsheet of all the costs of switching and not switching if you want to calculate the break even point.

You'll get about 10-15 years on average for any brand or type of equipment. With proper 2x per year maintenance, then a bit more more usuable time. So, consider those long term costs.

You also have nothing to lose by getting a true quote from the gas company...snow shouldn't matter.

I used about 250 gallons of oil this winter at about $3.70 a gallon that's $925 so far so lets say $1100 for the whole heating season.
I plan on getting my insulation upgraded to r49 from r19 in the attic and r15 in the walls plus my sill plate to r21 with spray foam this spring.
I would think I would save maybe 20% from this year so that would save me 50 gallons or $185 bucks next year. So now I'm down to $915 for the winter next year.
If I save say 50% switching to natural gas that's $455 a year.
$9000 divided by $455 is almost 20 yearsfor payback.
If I switch to propane I think I would save may 10% to 20% to oil, I will say 10% to be on the safe side 10% of $915 is $91.5 so if I take $91 offof $455 that's a net savings of $364 a year I would save if I went with NG.
So lets do the math again $9000 divided by $364 is almost 25 years can someone please explain how swtching to NG makes sense in my case

$9 K is a big difference from $4 K. Forget the gas line.

If the choice between fossil fuels, I probably would go with new high eff propane furnace paired with high eff HP over a new oil furnace. One thing also that might be worth considering, the new propane furnace could be converted back to NG if your area ever did get the nat gas service.

However, I think you would be doing yourself a disservice not investigating either geothermal HP or even the new Carrier low temp Greenspeed HP.

IMO

When I replaced my A/C with a heat pump, my oil heating bill here in Maryland went to just a few hundred dollars a year. I think we sometimes forget that even if a fuel has a very expensive RATE, that if we don't use much that the fuel COST is not necessarily high. The other energy saving steps that you are taking will drive this point home even more!

second quote

Remove existing oil furnace and air conditioning system
Install new Trane XC95m gas furnace and Trane XL16i air conditioning system
Provide and install:
1 ��" Trane (M# TUHMB060ACV3) modulating gas furnace
1 ��" Trane (M# 4TTX6024) condenser having 16 SEER rating
1 ��" Trane (M# 4TXCB003CC3HCA) A-coil
new thermostat
condenser pad
interconnecting refrigeration lines
condenser pad
condensate drain, condensate pump with safety switch and piping
gas piping and flue piping
add return ductwork
reconnect to existing duct system
reconnect to existing electrical wiring
start and check operation of systems
Warranty: 1 year labor on furnace - 2 year labor on air conditioning
Limited Mfg Warranty: 10 yr parts ��" 12 yr compressor - lifetime heat exchanger
Price: $12,718.00

Install propane conversion kit Additional $250.00
Install Trane XV95 gas furnace and Trane XL16I air conditioning system
1 ��" Trane (M# TUH2B060A9V3) variable speed gas furnace
1 ��" Trane (M# 4TTX6024) condenser having 17.25 SEER rating
1 - Trane (M# 4TXCB003CC3HCA) coil
Warranty: 1 year labor on furnace ��" 2 year labor on air conditioning system
Limited Mfg Warranty: 10 yr parts ��" 12 yr compressor ��" lifetime heat exchanger
Price: $11,783.00

Install propane conversion kit Additional $100.00

Install AO Smith gas water heater with chimney liner Price: $1,397.00

Install Navien on demand water heater Price: $3,250.00

Now let me say option two is the only one to do a load test and is recomeneding a 60k btu furnace the other guy just eyeballed it I guess when I asked him how he came up with his sizing he said he gave me a little bigger incase i wanted to expand my house on day option one for furnace and AC is about $1600 less not sure why tho

Fine. I replaced my nearly forty year old oil furnace two yearsa ago. So replace the oil tank for say $1500-$2000 and instead of replacing the A/C get a Heat Pump for like $500 more... you'll then have the FLEXIBILITY of using EITHER electricity OR oil to heat.

Want to save a bunch more $$$$ ? Get a heat pump hot water heater to replace your current electric hot water heater. Saves my wife and I about $50 EACH month!!!

80 K BTU furnace for a 1000 sq ft home with 600 sq ft basement?

The furnace model numbers quoted indicate a 60 KBTU furnace which on the surface seems correct.

Here are my fuel calc comparison based on the numbers you provided. I used a 2.5 COP for HP which may be conservative. Still a nice savings. You should recheck your electric rate. I used $.20 KWH.

What thermostat was quoted? You need a true two stage thermostat or else you will be on high stage all the time whether needed or not. This is a big deal especially with expensive propane heat.

I see no reason for a two stage condenser. I would stick with the XR15 or XL15i. Even at $.20 electric, I still think a case can be made for the HP version of either of those models.

Cost per 100,000 btu of useable heat

Electric baseboard: $5.27
Heat pump: $2.34
Oil: $3.27
Propane: $2.99

Above numbers to be used as a guide only.

IMO

With my heat pump I have the thermostat set to 60 during the day, 64 from 4:00PM to 10:00PM and then back to 60 until 6:00AM.

When I said electric hot water heater I did say a Heat Pump hot water heater. I have no knowledge nor experience with oil hot water heaters, however if you do ignore the advice here and go to propane will you not need to go to an electric hot water heater in some form?

for Salti

Why?

HP at $.20 KWH assuming 2.50 COP

Propane at $2.60 gal at 95% eff

Fuel oil at $3.70 gal at 82% eff

I do suggest you dbl check electric rate and ask if utility offers any rate incentive for HP heating. Some do, some don't.

IMO

My advice would be to spend the extra money to upgrade the AC to a heat pump. Think of it as insurance in case the price of propane goes up. There are no price controls on propane. The prices are determined by supply in demand. You never will know how much your next delivery will cost until you get it.

I also suggest piping the propane lines so that in the future it would be easy and inexpensive to hook up to the natural gas line. Some day the gas company may offer you an incentive to hook up to their line. Even if you don't do it yourself, you can use it as a selling point to a buyer of your house. This will mean you need to follow all the codes required to pipe natural gas.

" .,.. can you have a HP but choose not to use it and use just the furnace?"

I don't see how you can be asking this question when you long ago )in this thread) decided against a heat pump.

I apologize for posting in this thread, I think I'll just listen to the pros... it has helped me immeasurably over the past few years.

Since your backup fuel would be the more expensive fuel, I would run the HP as low as possible until it could not keep up with your inside comfort thermostat setting. All conventional air source HPs see their BTUs begin to drop off sharply at and below freezing. I do not like to see HPs run continuously for any period of time.

Of course you will need a good dual fuel thermostat with outdoor temp sensor. You could adjust the changeover setting at the thermostat and I would recommend 32 deg fah as your starting point.

IMO

Propane at $2.60 gal at 95% eff

Fuel oil at $3.70 gal at 82% eff"

tigerdunes can you run these numbers again I got quoted today from a local propane company $2.15 a gallon if I buy my own tanks and the furnace is 96% eff also my eletric rate is $.21. Reason for this is I got quoted $1000 for me to upgrade to a heat pump vs just AC and i want to see if there's a payback and how long

thanks

In your area, this is basically how it's going to go from least to most expensive: Nat. Gas, heat pump, oil, propane/electric resistance. (not wasting time w/ geo, coal, wood etc. in this comparison).

Averaged over a few years propane will be substantially more expensive than heatpump or oil per btu delivered even considering the greater efficiency possibility of a propane furnace. Your tank may be nearing the end of it's life but the oil furnace is not. I'm very surprised that you are so interested in spending a significant amount of money for little to potentially negative gain.

They ranged from $1.99-$2.74 a gallon. I didn't tell them I was switching from oil so there would be no enticing to make me switch. I do plan on buying my tanks so I could shop around.

Also every HVAC company I've talked to all push gas to oil and not just NG. I asked each company that quoted me also a friend in the buisness if I should make the switch from oil to propane and all of them said YES and all said I would save money. Also one of my neighbors switched two years ago and said the are saving $800 a year

There also has to be some gain from having a two stage furnace to a single stage right? You would be using less gas to heat your house. Oil only has on and off so I could see some savings that's never talked about in comparisions

It is fairly common for even well-meaning techs and hvac guys to recommend propane. I've heard this all too often with most never having "crunched the numbers", and some that do, do so incorrectly. They are, unfortunately, simply wrong about it being a less expensive fuel compared to fuel oil. I have no stake in heating oil - this is just a extremely common misconception that I've seen too many people buy into, only to find out that it just isn't so.

When people switch from an ancient, poorly maintained oil system to a modern, high efficiency propane system, their bills may be comparable or slightly less, but, it's not comparing apples to apples. A modulating or multi-speed furnace will improve the seasonal system efficiency, but not enough to tip the economic scales in its favor. A well-maintained, fairly modern oil system, cleaned, tuned, and fired at the proper rate will beat even high efficiency propane in dollars per btu delivered to your home. A temporary low price doesn't change the long-term reality of increased heating costs - and that's not including the large initial cost of conversion that will never pay for itself.

Look, if you want propane, go with propane, all I'm recommending against is the thinking that this is an "investment" that will somehow save you money. This fuel switch won't, and the additional up-front costs of new equipment will make this a significant loss for you, nothing about this fuel switch to propane will save you money over the next 15-20 years.

Propane gas is heavier than air. If your furnace is in a basement, if there's a gas leak, propane will collect in the basement and explode from any flame or spark (like a light switch). Natural gas is lighter than air and normally will rise and dissipate (unless it's a really large leak).

I know someone whose vacation house literally blew up from a propane leak.

I agree that the fuel costs between oil and propane are going to be about the same. Propane has a small advantage since the equipment is more efficient. But what about the maintenance costs? What would you estimate it will cost to maintain the oil burner for the next 10 years? At what point will the oil burner have to be replaced?

When you look at it this way it's a no brainer that propane is the best choice

I think propane gets a bad rap because to many people rent the tanks instead of buying them. A perfect example is I was talking to a friend of mine that rents his tanks and he is paying $3.99 a gallon which is crazy. buying the tanks will pay itself back in one year.

The idea of replacing your A/C with a HP and retaining oil was suggested to you in this thread in the first week of February. You had your mind made up then - before any meaningful cost calculations had been discussed.

While the pros here have suggested a different path, I think you should just do what you want to do and come back in a year and lets us know how it worked out.

I see a dead horse being beaten!

"In Feb I was still thinking I would be able to get NG not propane so why would I get a HP with NG?"

Did you not read any of the great posts doing the arithmetic that you still don't seem to grasp.

I believe my posts were helpful - for example, I believe I was the first to suggest that you do the math and see if a heat pump for heating made economical sense. I also suggested what the costs might be to retain oil, including replacing your tank. (Many oil furnaces last for 50 years, BTW.) I don't see that you've priced that out...

But as I said, you've made up your mind so I certainly would hope you'll make it happen. Again, I'd love to hear back in a year or two.

Best of luck!

I still believe a high eff propane furnace is best choice and paired with high eff HP. If dealer wants the business, he should charge you his wholesale cost
difference to the AC model plus 10-20 % profit. No need to be greedy.

The comment about the safety issue with propane is way overblown.

IMO

OK my HVAC guy wanted $1000 more for HP vs AC but it qualifie for another $500 rebate so for only $500 more I wll take your advice and get the HP. I guess it would be stupid not to. thanks everyone for your help.

What exactly have you even quoted-brand, model, size, etc...

Furnace, evap coil, condenser, thermostat, filter cabinet, etc.

Post back.

IMO

Remove existing oil furnace and air conditioning system
Install new Trane XV95 propane furnace and Trane XL16i heat pump air conditioning system
Provide and install:
1 ��" Trane (M# TUH2B060A9V3) variable speed propane furnace
1 ��" Trane (M# 4TWX6024) heat pump condenser having 17.25 SEER rating
1 ��" Trane (M# 4TXCB003CC3HCA) coil
1 ��" Space Guard Filtering System
condenser pad
install propane conversion kit
interconnecting refrigeration lines
condensate drain, condensate pump with safety switch and piping
gas piping and flue piping
add return ductwork
change two flex runs in basement to hard pipe
reconnect to existing duct system
reconnect to existing electrical wiring
start and check operation of systems
Warranty: 1 year labor on furnace - 2 year labor on air conditioning
Limited Mfg Warranty: 10 yr parts ��" 12 yr compressor - lifetime heat exchanger
Price: $12,833.00
Page 1

Honeywell Prestige IAQ Comfort System - YTHX9421R5051

FEATURES:
•Control heating, cooling and IAQ equipment with only 2 wires at the thermostat. Heating, cooling and IAQ equipment wires to the Equipment Interface Module.
•Patented interview based programming and installer setup.
•RedLINK wireless communication.
•Configurable for residential and light commercial applications. Meets commercial code and is title 24 compliant.
•Light commercial - commercial language (occupied and unoccupied), schedule holidays and custom events, remote setback, economizer and time of day.
•Delta T Alerts and Diagnostics informs customers when their system is not operating as expected with instructions to contact the dealer. Provides a sense of security and greater comfort while generating repeat business.
•All Prestige® IAQ 2.0 systems come standard with a return and discharge air temperature sensor to measure Delta T.
•Alerts and User Interactions Log - Keeps a searchable history of alerts and setting changes to the thermostat to determine if there is a system malfunction or if the issue was caused by user error.
•Customizable Service Reminders allow dealers to remind their customers when its time to call for service, when their warranty is expiring and to provide customized alerts.
•USB port for transferring Installer Setup, Customizable Reminders, Custom Events and Holidays to multiple thermostats.
•USB port for adding the dealer's full color business logo on the screen.
•3 assignable outputs to control humidification, dehumidification, ventilation and a stage of heating or cooling.

SPECIFICATIONS:
Application Up to 4 Heat/2 Cool Heat Pumps
Application Up to 3 Heat/2 Cool Conventional Systems
Programmability 7-Day Multiple Day Programming or Non-Programmable
Changeover Auto or Manual
Color Arctic White
Switch Positions (System) HEAT-OFF-COOL-AUTO-EM.HEAT
Switch Positions (Fan) AUTO-ON-CIRC
Power Method Hardwired
Terminal Designations R, C then RedLINK to Equipment Interface Module
Electrical Ratings 18 to 30 Vac
Frequency 60 Hz
Frequency 50 Hz
Electrical Connections Screw terminals
Operating Temperature Range (F) 32 F to 120 F
Operating Temperature Range (C) 0 C to 48.9 C
Setting Temperature Range (F) Heat: 40 F to 90 F; Cool 50 F to 99F
Setting Temperature Range (C) Heat: 4.5 C to 32.0 C; Cool: 10 C to 37.0 C
Humidity Setting Range Cooling: 40 to 80% RH. Heating: 10 to 60% RH.
Stages Up to 4 Heat / 2 Cool Heat Pump or Up to 3 Heat / 2 Cool Conventional
Outdoor Sensor N/A
Remote Sensor N/A
Operating Humidity Range (% RH) 5 to 90% RH, non-condensing
Includes THX9421R5013 Thermostat, THM5421R1013 Equipment Interface Module and two C7735A1000 Duct Sensors
Comments Tri-Lingual Display (selectable for English, French or Spanish)
Used With RedLINKT enabled thermostats and accessories
Display Size 8.06 sq in.
Humidification Setting Range 10 to 60% RH.
Dehumidification Setting Range 40 to 80% RH.
Voltage 18 to 30 Vac

That is an excellent thermostat choice.

It is dual fuel, two stage, has DOD for summer AC cooling and accepts auxiliary equipment like humidifiers. You will need a connecting outdoor sensor.

Several other suggestions.

I don't care for two stage condensers for small zones like yours. And not a fan of the XL16i model. I would go with the single stage XL15i two ton model.

I will look up the AHRI HP directory performance/efficiency numbers for each condenser when I have time.

I also prefer Trane's Perfect Fit Media cabinet to the space guard quoted. It fits the Trane furnace like a hand should fit the glove. No need for a transition. Changeout of filter is quick and easy. Generic aftermarket filters are available. This is the filter that I have on my 8 yr old XV90 dual fuel system.

IMO