Your post brought to mind something which I had not previously considered. A few years ago, I wanted backup heat for my house that is thermostat controlled and operates with no external electrical source (such as during a power outage). I have propane for the heat pump backup. Found a heater by Cozy with intake and exhaust vent through the wall. So it is "sealed combustion" and does have wall mounted thermostat, 750mv. It is 80%. Installed in the basement. I do not expect to ever need another but they may soon be made of Unobtanium. I know of no available higher efficiency unit that satisfies my objectives.
We have waay too much government.

In my opinion this was a bad decision by the federal government. This will cause a lot of hardship for some people.

We do have some climate areas in the country where heating is not much needed so it does not pay to have efficient heating equipment.

For a big chunk of the country (most of what people consider as the South and also in the Southwest), I believe 80% furnaces will continue to be available. My HVAC contractor told me that in my coastal location, it was possible I'd never recover the cost differential for a higher efficiency unit before it needed to be replaced. That made it an easy decision for me.

Conversely, in the Plains and the northern swatch of states where 90% will be required, it's expected that most will ultimately see a cost savings. Whether they do or not, it's a worthwhile conservation measure that's easy enough to accomplish, just like higher mileage requirements for cars.

Those of you who think the government thinks up conspiracy after conspiracy to ruin your life, you're welcome (no matter what party you belong to) to elect someone else as your representative. The clowns we have now don't deserve job security. (PS, the law was signed by Bush)

It is my understanding the new rule applies to only to gas furnaces. It is not clear if propane is included.

If you have an oil furnace you don't have to follow the rule in the Northern states. This doesn't make a lot of sense.

According to the EPA Delaware is a Southern state and new gas furnaces can have an AFUE of 80%. Someone from the EPA should visit Delaware in the winter.

Payback is not the issue. Using less precious fuel is the goal. Ur 80 furnace dies. U buy a 90+ and it is expensive. It dies in 11.2 yrs and u just buy another. And mother earth is happy.

Mike, I read somewhere that one of the considerations was heating degree days. That's as good a measure as any of how much "heating" takes place. Practicalities were also considered, I think all parts of each state are in the same category.

There are many areas in the mountains of California and Arizona that are as cold as anywhere else in the lower 48 but putting them into a different category from their in-state neighbors would have made things unnecessarily complicated.

Feel mighty bad for my northern friends who don't know this is coming until it hits their pocket book. Have alerted all personal friends I know but many, if their furnace is running (even 20 year old ones due to lack of money) are opting to wait. I worry about fires, CO poisoning, and health impact. Even death when freezing hits those without an active heat.

This represents, imho, an example of government run amuck at great citizens expense with total lack of communications. Only winners may be HVAC makers and installers but those with a heart know it's a bad plan in the short term. I hope shortly it will be delayed from May 1, 2013, phased in and better thought out in many ways.

I've been following this subject actively on ACCA for months. I live in the south but would be really upset if I couldn't vent through my 80% dedicated chimney, but rather being forced to run PVC to outside when the furnace expired. Lots of reasons to keep our furnaces is great shape now.

If you wish to see others reactions and the specifics here you go:

'DOE Finalizes New Energy Conservation Standards for Residential HVAC Appliances'
By Charlie McCrudden : October 26, 2011 : 109 Comments

Here is a link that might be useful: Good read and comments:

Sparkling... Your southern friends will feel the bite of the 2015 mandate for 14 seer AC's also. In order to achieve 14 seer, you need the new indoor system with matching coil and ECM motor on the system. I did like the link and comments you provided. A lot of instances where it's just not feasible.

Thanks, tinmantu. Must have missed that. Hmm, after I better understand what you're saying (my AC is outdoors and nine years old) and read more on national impact, I may join with the others on the proposed congressional petition to modify these hardship causing DOE regulations. Time to get off my derriere and get active on this!

I feel the requirement for the AC of going from 13 to 14 SEER is not nearly as difficult has the 90% AFUE requirement. Manufacturers may be able to achieve 14 SEER by making the condenser or coil physically bigger and not use an ECM motor.

Agreed Mike...not as severe, but new line sets to replace older systems, etc will be a hardship on lower income people. I feel that some making these regs are the same people that invested in 5/16th screws when Trane took over GE. :)

It is good practice to replace your line set when moving from R22 to R410A refrigerant. Replacing the coil is a must. There is some amount of money consumers are forced to spend regardless of the new requirement.

The Washington bureaucrats don't think about how this affects people. This is a classic case of unintended consequences.

its a good move IMO. I wish they would make
it nationwide.
efficiency always costs upfront. but benefits
are long term.

long before the 10-13 SEER change I recommended
13 SEER. now..15-17 SEER.
even in the south..and I'm pretty far south
there is a savings in going to the more efficient
savings.

hvac companies that train their tech and understand
efficiency have no problem selling 90+% furnaces.
the companies who don't have a clue..and don't
plan to ever get one..complain that they
aren't worth the cost.
nearly every client I have that replaces gas
furnaces go to 96% furnaces.
some folks get it..some never will.

best of luck.

Condensing90%+ furnaces have been around for along time. They are in fact very efficient and reliable. I understand the southern feeling from the heating side. The idea that we have to go all the way to 14 seer is a joke. I have for the past three years had a mini- split heat pump that is 25 seer.

The one thing that is likely to come up in the future concerning the condensing furnaces is the PVC venting. PVC is not approved as a venting material. Charlotte Pipe published a letter a few years ago listing all,of their ANSI Standards. None of the standards cover PVC as a venting material and Charlotte is very up front in pointing that out. They then go on to say that the equipment manuf would of course know the best material for venting their equipment. I liken this to the tobacco companies putting a warning label on their smokes. The best material to us in place of the PVC is polypropylene. It handles higher temps, is approved and is manuf by a company called Centrotherm. PVC MAY be the mother of all recalls in the future.

95% efficient furnaces are not that much more to install than an 80% furnace. The only difference is the venting of the exhaust. That required extra materials and work, but not that much. The 95% furnace itself costs more too but not a fortune. Some installers make a big deal out installing a 95% furnace. There are plenty of installers near me who install a 95% furnace for under 2-grand complete. People will need to shop around more and get better estimates. Energy efficiency is good for this country.

It is not as simple as spending a few hundred dollars more on a more efficient furnace.

Have you considered a furnace in an uninsulated attic? The condensate will freeze if not handled properly. What about a furnace in a finished basement or in a closet in the home? The PVC piping will need to traverse finished space. What will a homeowner who lives in a townhouse or condo do? Most homeowner associations don't allow any modification to the exterior of the building. How will the PVC pipe exit?

There are people who have a dual fuel system with a heat pump. It seems wasteful to spend so much additional money on their auxiliary heat.

For some people it is a no brainer to get a 90%+ furnace. For others it will pose significant problems.

mike_home,

"Most homeowner associations don't allow any modification to the exterior of the building. How will the PVC pipe exit?"

Do you believe that a homeowner association will continue to exist if they take the position that a unit that has an existing furnace that has failed must continue to be occupied without heat?

I'm with you on that saltidawg.
more excuses for not investing in efficiency.

the whole incandescent light bulb conversion
to cfl's is an excellent example.
now the incandescent companies are making
'more efficient' incandescent bulbs. ha ha.

to me..it is all about wanting to do better
than just the minimum allowed by law.
luckily my clients for the most part share
the same pov.

I read Mike's point as simply describing the dynamic involved with too many HOA Boards - they often don't deal well with new things. If at some future point every unit will need to push pipes through exterior walls, then that will ultimately be acceptable. But woe be unto the first person who requests permission to do so.

Energy conservation has nothing to do with it, it's the non-conformity (of any kind) that often causes problems.

"But woe be unto the first person who requests permission to do so."

EXACTLY!

Proposed Settlement Rescinds Regional Standards For Residential Gas Furnaces

By Charlie McCrudden : January 14, 2013

"In a settlement filed late Friday afternoon, the Department of Energy (DOE) has agreed to withdraw the pending minimum energy conservation standards that include regional standards for residential non-weatherized and mobile home gas furnaces. The term "non-weatherized furnace" is used to define furnaces that are designed to be placed indoors..."

Here is a link that might be useful: Update

Maybe the Department of Energy read this post. :)

Hey everybody, read the attached link. The Gov eliminates regulation:

Read the attached link.

V

Here is a link that might be useful: High Efficiency no longer mandatory

after all...why should we conserve our
natural resources.
always somewhere else to drill or
blast off a mountian top.

its a crying shame.

That's not the point.

What if you live in an area that is subjected to frequent black outs but want to have a wall furnace installed? It's NOT 90% efficient BUT it will keep you alive.

This makes it illegal to do.

Not everyone lives in the 'burbs or urban areas.

In northern Michigan I prepared for it 20 years ago. Have sold I think ..... 2 ... 80% furnaces in that time. For the little extra cost 80's became a waste of time ... loooooong ago! Not only that but every 80% furnace I think I've ever laid eyes on has been well .... what are the words? Oh yeah ..... rattly, noisy, low-end, designed to die .... junk. The challenge is to find 90's and up that aren't likewise. And I believe the mandate applies to central systems, not spot or space heaters.