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bidgee

Replacing our upstairs 1988 Carrier HVAC

bidgee
9 years ago

The blower motor in our upstairs HVAC system just burned out after 26 years. Our first thought was simply to replace it, but enough alternatives have since presented themselves that we could now use a little help. Salient details:

HOUSE

Location: US West Coast, latitude 37.4 N (Page Mill exit off I-280)
Finished basement: 900 sq ft
Downstairs: 2600 sq ft
Upstairs: 1000 sq ft (MBR, MBA, 2 walk-in closets, hall, study; the study is the only upstairs room occupied during the day)
One staircase connecting all three floors.
Windows:
....many large on east and south sides
....typical size on north and west sides
....all double glazed
Skylights:
....12 downstairs
....6 upstairs

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HVAC
Basement furnace heats basement and downstairs, so serving 3500 sq ft
Upstairs furnace+AC heats/cools upstairs, so serving 1000 sq ft
Summer: upstairs and downstairs are kept cool by upstairs AC.
Winter: downstairs and upstairs are kept warm by both furnaces.

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ELECTRICITY & GAS

PG&E + 7.5 KW roof-mounted solar PV

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CURRENT SITUATION
Upstairs blower motor burned out.
Could replace motor.
But upstairs AC is 1988 Carrier---inefficient, and lately ineffective.
Time to modernize upstairs furnace+AC.

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PROPOSAL 1:

Cond: Trane XR-14 3-ton 14-SEER Model # 4TTR036
Evap: "matching"
Heat:
(i) Trane XL-80 2-stage 80kBtu @ 80% AFUE (= 64kBtu); or...
(ii) Trane XV-80 2-stage variable ditto

PROPOSAL 2:

Cond: Bryant 3-ton 16-SEER Model # 116BNA036000
Evap: ADP Model # C36A142C126
Heat: Bryant 1-stage 70kBtu @ 80% AFUE Model # 311AAV036070
(Contractor quoted only a 1-stage furnace on the ground that a 2-stage furnace wouldn't fit in our narrow furnace closet.)

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OUR USE CASE:

Heating: Very light use of upstairs furnace: only in winter, and just for an hour when we get up in the morning. Even with the furnace currently on the fritz, the upstairs study is kept warm enough during the day by the combination of sun, downstairs furnace, and sweater (rarely needed). The bathroom however could use a little blast of heat when we get up.

Cooling:
....Intensive use from spring to fall.
....Made more intensive by downstairs being cooled from upstairs.

(So: little to no cost benefit from an efficient upstairs furnace;
but much larger cost benefit from an efficient upstairs AC.)

Quality: Preferably higher (not trying to cut corners)

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QUESTIONS

Assuming this HVAC system lasts 20 years (we got 27 years out of the two Carrier units) and is used much more for cooling than heating:

1. Any significant reduction in energy consumed over 20 years if we go with the variable-speed Trane XV-80 instead of the XL-80?

2. Any reason why a variable-speed Bryant furnace would require more closet space than a 1-stage one?

3. (Blast from the past.) We have an MIT-designed 1988 Unity Home Manager thermostat system with 12 zones (that it controls using dampers in the ducts) that continues (amazingly) to work fine. However it can only act as a one-stage thermostat for each furnace. If efficient cooling upstairs is our only concern, will this one-stage thermostat suffice for a variable-speed blower motor, or will we need to control it from a different thermostat? (If the latter, presumably any such thermostat will have no idea how to operate the dampers, so they'll just have to be left 100% open with the whole upstairs operated as a single zone instead of the present four.)

4. (Wishful thinking.) Any Unity Home Manager hackers in the SF bay area?

Comments (3)

  • tigerdunes
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    1000 sq ft and 3 tons of cooling? Why? Dehumidification important?

    Heating rarely used but Trane dealer quoting 80 KBTU at 80% eff? I would not have the XL furnace. Either the XV80 or single stage XT80 in the 60K size.

    Bryant dealer quoting a 3rd party coil is a red flag...it is wrong...low end Legacy condenser quoted.

    Is cooling efficiency important to you?

    What size is existing system you are replacing, both furnace and AC?

    I am not familiar with your unity zoning system. Can't help.

    IMO

    This post was edited by tigerdunes on Fri, Jan 23, 15 at 6:38

  • bidgee
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks very much, tigerdunes.

    3 tons makes sense to us because much of the upstairs cooling ends up downstairs, with the result that downstairs remains cool year round despite the dozen downstairs skylights (and six upstairs).

    We used to have a 5T AC on the downstairs system as well, but when it died we didn't notice downstairs getting any warmer and realized that the 3T upstairs must be cooling downstairs via the staircase, even more effectively than upstairs ironically.

    So really the upstairs AC is cooling a 3600 sf house (plus 900 sf basement which however remains naturally cool).

    Cooling efficiency for the upstairs system is important to us because

    (a) it spends far more time cooling than heating;

    (b) matter of principle: reduce our consumption footprint;

    (c) lower operating cost over next 20 years (for us and any subsequent owners of the house).

    System being replaced: 1988 Carrier 3 ton D&N (Day & Night)
    Heat: D&N 395BAW036060ABJA (3 burners, 71,000 Btuh in)
    Cond: D&N 568EJX036000AGAA (3 ton)
    Evap: label inaccessible

    Downstairs system that we're sticking with for now
    Heat: D&N 395BAW060120ABJA (6 burners, 143,000 Btuh in)
    Cond: D&N 568EBX060000AGAA (5 ton, long dead)
    Evap: BDP 518CXX057000BACA

  • sktn77a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Your system will be rather unbalanced and compromised in compensating for the lack of a downstairs AC condenser. You should need a maximum of 2 tons for the upstairs A/C but that assumes you would have a 3-4 ton AC downstairs. Your original 8 tons total AC was way overboard for the size of house and Palo Alto location. Everything is further complicated by this zoning system which will die eventually and will be a bear to replace.

    You may want to consider planning for the downstairs system replacement in the next couple of years and design the upstairs replacement around this eventuality (including whole house heating and cooling load calculations - don't just replace with what was put in originally, which are invariable oversized - and ductwork reassessment, with our without the zoning).

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