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mattamillion

New furnace quote

mattamillion
11 years ago

Hi all,

New to the forums but have been doing a lot of reading recently as we're in the market for a new furnace as we had the service guy out recently and he ID's some problems ($700+ repair bill) and said we had a couple of months of life on the unit. Not sure if we should be looking at replacing the AC as well, and looking for overall advice. We've had 2 contractors out to the house so far, another due out tomorrow.

Basic specs: 2400 SF 2-story, 16 years old, plus 1100 SF unfinished (for now) basement, currently Trane XL80 @ 100K BTU and a Goodman CLT30-1A 3-ton unit, Mpls/St Paul metro. The furnace is original and the AC is newer, looks like a 2002 model year. Most windows face ESE but have a lot of western sun in the summer on the front of the house.

I think we're more or less decided on a HE furnace rather than simply replacing the Trane, but are evaluating the 2-stage variable vs. modulating. Modulating sounds appealing for the level of comfort/control.

Option 1
Furnace: York - Affinity YP9C, 80K BTU, 97.7 AFUE
AC: York LX YCJF, 3 ton, 15.5 SEER
Includes Aprilaire 600 humidifier & 2210 media cleaner, Nest thermostat
$9000 (inclusive of all tax credits, rebates, etc.)

Option 2
Furnace: York - LX TM9V, 80K BTU, 96 AFUE
AC: York LX YCJF, 3 ton, 16.5 SEER
Includes Aprilaire 600 humidifier & 2210 media cleaner, Nest thermostat
$8300 (inclusive of all tax credits, rebates, etc.)

Option 3
Furnace: Carrier Infinity 96 (59TN6A100V21), 100K BTU, 96 AFUE
No AC replacement, Infinity thermostat, use existing Honeywell HH humidifier
$5100 (inclusive of all tax credits, rebates, etc.)

Option 4
Furnace: Carrier Performance 96 (59TP5A100E21) , 100K BTU, 96 AFUE
No AC replacement, Use existing thermostat, use existing Honeywell HH humidifier
$4300 (inclusive of all tax credits, rebates, etc.)

Questions:
1) Given the age of the AC, does it make sense to replace it along with the furnace? If I can get away with not replacing it now, I would prefer that but am willing to do it all at once if there's a compelling reason to do so. (Difference in tax credits/rebates is $600 to do both together.)

2) From what I've read, if we go with a modulating furnace, we should upgrade our humidifier so that it works with the upgraded furnace functionality. True?

3) Will we see that big a difference between full modulating vs. a 2-stage variable?

4) Pricing for options 1 and 2 (from one contractor) seem high compared to options 3 and 4. Need to see what the 3rd contractor comes in with but any initial reactions? All 3 are large, well-regarded local firms so I know I don't have a fly-by-night operation low-balling things.

Other thoughts? Haven't seen a full Manual J in writing but will request contingent on signing the contract, etc. Also, recommendations on thermostat? Would like WiFi and like the Nest, have also looked at some Honeywell models.

Thanks in advance!

Comments (9)

  • mike_home
    11 years ago

    Does your current furnace keep the house warm on the coldest days of the year? If it does, then you should not be buying a furnace larger than 80K BTU at 95% efficiency. I am surprised that the second contractor quoted a 100K BTU furnace.

    Here are my comments to your questions:

    1)I think it would be a good investment to change the AC now. I always worry about a leak developing in the coil when the furnace is replaced.

    2)I don't think you have to upgrade your humidifier. I am not aware of humidifiers made for modulating furnaces.

    3)The is a big difference between single stage and 2-stage furnaces. I feel there is a smaller difference between 2-stage and modulating furnaces. I have a Carrier 3-stage furnace. I can tell when it is on high stage, but middle and low stages are sometimes difficult to differentiate.

    4)Your prices for options 1 and 2 seem on the high side for York equipment. I am not sure I would get a Nest thermostat.

  • tigerdunes
    11 years ago

    Some observations and thoughts.

    Your existing furnace has about 80K BTUs output. Both Carrier quotes have quoted 100K furnace models with 96% efficiency. About 16+ KBTUs additional. Wonder why?

    It appears to me if your mdl number is correct, the Goodman condenser is a 2 1/2 ton size, not 3 ton as you stated. This should be checked. BTW,
    you may not want to hear this but that model is a pc of junk. I would replace it with a matching unit.

    Why the need for a WiFi thermostat?

    Going down your list.

    I would replace the AC condenser with a properly sized and matching 15 SEER model minimum.

    I see no reason why your existing humidifier can not be reused.

    Full modulating furnaces adjusting to demand both up and down on the fly give you best comfort.

    I like Carrier option #3 over #4. I would want a media filter cabinet.

    Any hot/cold spots within your home? Now is the time to point these out for dealer to address. Home has adequate return air? Where will new furnace be located? It will need to be in close proximity to Ext wall both for venting waste air and fresh combustion air.

    On Carrier Infinity furnaces, I would not use any control/thermostat other than the latest Infinity.

    IMO

  • joeplumb
    11 years ago

    " The furnace is original and the AC is newer, looks like a 2002 model year. Most windows face ESE but have a lot of western sun in the summer on the front of the house"

    10 year AC. Don't waste your money on new AC, especially if you live in a temperate climate. I live in CT and have a
    2 ton carrier 25 years old, no problem. Secret is it is only needed 3 months per year.

    Preliminarily,I would vote for either 3 or 4 but if you plan on upgrading and heating the basement you could use the 100 K unit.
    In any case, you need a calculation for the required BTU.
    The older houses were over designed and your 100K unit was probably also. Insist on a programmed calculation from any competent installer. Oversized single stage units will cycle more which reduces comfort level.

  • tigerdunes
    11 years ago

    Most homeowners are not fully aware that basements at or partially below grade carry very low heating and cooling load.

    If I was the specific homeowner in this thread and wanted best comfort and control and depending on when basement will bevfinshed and how it would be used, then a zoning control might be indicated. Of course this comes with a cost.

    IMO

  • mike_home
    11 years ago

    Joeplumb,

    If you think the original furnace was over sized, then why would recommend getting a new furnace which has a larger output?

    I don't think the Goodman AC condenser is going to make it to 25 years. If the OP had a Carrier or Trane condenser and was going to match it to the proper furnace, then it may make sense to keep a 10 year old condenser.

    I agree with what Tigerdunes has stated about heating a basement. It does not take much to heat it, but you need a zone control if you want to keep it at a specific temperature in the winter. In the summer it will always be cooler than the first and second floors of the house.

  • mattamillion
    Original Author
    11 years ago

    All,

    Thanks for the comments--much appreciated! Specific responses to some of your thoughts:

    mike_home - "Does your current furnace keep the house warm on the coldest days of the year? If it does, then you should not be buying a furnace larger than 80K BTU at 95% efficiency."

    Yes. We recently had a stretch of sub-zero temps for 2-3 days with a low in the -15 to -20 F range overnight and had no problems. I went down in the basement and took a thermometer with me, and without any vents directly feeding air in, it was 59F when exterior temp was 0. (Upstairs was set at 69.) It stays pretty constant regardless of exterior temp.

    tigerdunes - "It appears to me if your mdl number is correct, the Goodman condenser is a 2 1/2 ton size, not 3 ton as you stated. This should be checked. BTW, you may not want to hear this but that model is a pc of junk. I would replace it with a matching unit." "I like Carrier option #3 over #4. I would want a media filter cabinet." "Any hot/cold spots within your home? Now is the time to point these out for dealer to address. Home has adequate return air? Where will new furnace be located? It will need to be in close proximity to Ext wall both for venting waste air and fresh combustion air."

    Could be a 2.5 ton, not sure. The contractor who quoted the AC units recommended a 3 ton so that makes sense. Same person also mentioned it was a piece of junk so that's not news to me, but like hearing it from an independent source vs. a sales pitch.

    There are a couple hot/cold spots which we pointed out. Partly I think this is due to the oversized old furnace stopping/starting vs. the ducting, which contractor #1 seemed pretty happy with overall (had 2 vents for each return, well placed, etc.). Furnace is located in the center of the basement but a pretty easy PVC run the 12" or so to the rear exterior. We have a VanEE filtering the intake.

    joeplumb "10 year AC. Don't waste your money on new AC, especially if you live in a temperate climate. I live in CT and have a 2 ton carrier 25 years old, no problem. Secret is it is only needed 3 months per year." - Agreed, a couple years ago we only used it for 2-3 weeks. Last summer, of course, it saw a lot of use.

    I'm not unwilling to spend $$ on a replacement but want to feel good about it... if there's a lot of useful life left on the unit (5+ years), then I'd rather wait. If it's likely to die soon, it makes a lot more sense to replace. I know you get a couple points higher SEER with the 2-stage AC but is it worth the extra cost given the climate here--avg high temp in July is 84, though humidity is also usually high in the summer.

    Thanks again for all the thoughts.

  • tigerdunes
    11 years ago

    Two stage AC condenser not required. Stay with a good high eff sgl stage model properly sized with best matching coil.

    IMO

  • joeplumb
    11 years ago

    "Joeplumb,

    If you think the original furnace was over sized, then why would recommend getting a new furnace which has a larger output? "

    Read the entire post. Has 100K -- who knows what he needs.

    He needs somebody to either calculate the requirement or experiment with his existing one to get it empirically'
    This last is tricky. The way I would do it is set thermostat
    super high so the furnace runs constantly and at equilibrium get the indoor temperature. Now if you assume say 80K output for the present furnace, you need approximately
    80*(70-T0)/(Th-T0))
    70 assumed indoor required temperature or whatever you need
    Th= temperature the house reaches for full on furnace
    T0 outside temperature at the time of experiment

  • joeplumb
    11 years ago

    "Joeplumb,

    If you think the original furnace was over sized, then why would recommend getting a new furnace which has a larger output? "

    Read the entire post. Has 100K -- who knows what he needs.

    He needs somebody to either calculate the requirement or experiment with his existing one to get it empirically'
    This last is tricky. The way I would do it is set thermostat
    super high so the furnace runs constantly and at equilibrium get the indoor temperature. Now if you assume say 80K output for the present furnace, you need approximately
    80*(70-T0)/(Th-T0))
    70 assumed indoor required temperature or whatever you need
    Th= temperature the house reaches for full on furnace
    T0 outside temperature at the time of experiment