There's two meanings of "organic" being intermingled and confusing the issues, I think, harmonyp. Whether or not something is grown "organically" (a cultural movement based on sometimes questionable premises, in this ecologist's opinion) has nothing to do with whether or not it is an organic form of nitrogen (i.e., nitrogen as part of a large organic molecule that breaks apart slowly into plant-usable forms of nitrogen). Nitrate and ammonium, which are inorganic, ionic compounds, are considered the plant-usable forms of nitrogen, although this view is being modified as more and more evidence piles up for plants sometimes using organic forms of nitrogen directly. As opposed to nitrogen in large organic molecules, the inorganic forms of nitrogen, provided en masse by synthetic/manufactured fertilizers, are highly mobile in the environment. If they aren't taken up immediately by the plant, they readily move into waterways or the atmosphere where the excess becomes a problem. So, probability of over-application is the main issue, first-order, not the form of nitrogen. Don't use excessive amounts of synthetic fertilizers and it's not a problem. Over-application of synthetic fertilizer by rose gardeners would be less than a pittance, anyway; it's large-scale use of excessive amounts of synthetics in big agriculture that is of concern (plus concomitant doubling of "in-play" nitrogen in ecosystems due to the need to feed exponentially-growing human populations, but THAT problem is second-order and beyond...). My preference for alfalfa lies in it being an organic molecule form that makes nitrogen slowly available over a long period of time, having other benefits for the soil, and posing less potential for application of excessive amounts. It is cheap, easy to obtain and use, and my roses look fine to me. I am too lazy and busy to keep track of multiple applications and timing required for synthetic fertilizers over the growing season. So, win-win on a number of fronts; who could complain? As a consultant in restoration ecology, I'm actually a big fan of Roundup. It's an important tool-of-the-trade, though usually considered only after non-chemical means are considered and rejected.

hi mark, glad to hear you did well, but i am not surprised, you are a genius at growing anything! now how's that money tree going? get any seeds yet? :) i am NOT a fan of mel bartholowmay (sp?) and his square foot gardening. i know people swear by it, i swear at it! for some things it's ok for others it is a disaster. maybe i did it wrong, any guess what a 4' X 4' square of bush string beans planted 2 or 4" on center looks like? it's a horror show. that said, i'm a big advocate of using 4' sq beds for some things. my garlic did fantastic! i grew garlic in '95 and '96 and it was a small amount, 1st year ok the 2nd was not good so i gave up. this past fall i allocated 4' X 12' for garlic (same as onions). i used my 6" onion planting guide to plant the garlic. i had 10 or 11 rows of music, 5 or 6 rows of german white, 2 rows of georgian crystal, 2 rows of an unknown hard neck i got at a health food store and 2 rows of softneck from stop and shop, the cloves for the sn were HUGE. of the hardnecks, 3 or 4 plants grew funky, maybe 2 or 3 never came up. of the sn, 1/2 did not come up and compared to the hn it did poorly tho ok. i dug it all about 7/25 and dried it in my shed. i trimmed the roots and stalks on friday. i did very well! i did have a problem (only with german white and only 8 or 10 bulbs with about 30+ that are fine) so i went to the farmers market looking for the farmer i bought my garlic from to ask about it but he was not there. so far i have not been able to get him on the phone. i did ask a few farmers why happened and the concensus was that i watered too much. my problem was that only the german white had 8 bulbs that had a white mold or fungus around the stalk within the bulb. the cloves were firm but looked water logged, a sort of translucent pearly grey color. the other 30 or so german white were ok. all the other garlic was ok from what i can discern. i did mulch with 5-6" of 1 or 2 year old shredded leaves, removing all but 1" in late march (which was too late but that did not harm anything). i thought that the leaves introduced the problem but then all the garlic should have had it. these guys told me they do not water their garlic, it rains enough here in the spring and summer to suffice. all the sources i read always said to keep it evenly moist but i 100% discount that now. unless we go for 3 weeks without rain, i will not water garlic again. however, if you saw the size of the hardneck bulbs they were selling you'd laugh. my german white has some cloves that are so huge that 1 clove is 2/3 the size of their entire bulb! i am not kidding you. my music cloves are just about the same tho i think the german white has larger cloves while music has larger bulbs, more cloves per bulb. my bulbs are about 2.5 to 3" in diameter, theirs were about 1.5 to 1.75"! so like i wonder about watering, you know :)! still, one guy told me garlic originated in siberia and they have wicked dry weather so the no watering does make sense. i harvested about 160 bulbs out of about 175 cloves planted. i used 48 sq feet of garden. to compare, i used 120 sq feet for potatoes. i grew 13 superior and 13 yukon gold and got a WHOOPING, SIT DOWN, HOLD ONTO YOUR HAT, 15 pounds of superior and 16 pounds of yukon gold and i use a soaker hose around the seed for adequate water. prior to that, my potatoes were often hollow or very small, so the soaker hose helps. garlic requires only cutting the scape and virtually no weeding with 1" of mulch. digging is easy. potatoes require work to plant, 2 or 3 hillings which is a lot of work in the heat, usually a lot of work killing colorodo potatoe beetles tho i saw only 12-18 this year and no larvae and the digging to get the potatoes is really hard work especially with a soaker hose in there. so i wasted 120 sq feet again! this fall i plan on planting at least 100 sq feet of garlic, NO potatoes, i may plant 125-130 sq feet. i plant 6" on center. i know from experience that if you crowd onions you get small bulbs. my red wings and copra are much larger now that i space them 4" on center vs the 3" i used to use. i suspect garlic is the same. i gather you used 6' too using the crw? storage is something only time will tell. i don't know what to make of the taste of all my garlics. georgian crystal is mild. the others are not like grocery store garlic which is HOT and SPICY. it is what i am used to. some of my cloves have been hot but most are so so. not sure what to make of this. but it is organic, it will be free once i grow enough to plant and eat for the whole year. this is why i need to buy garlic cuz i'd have to plant too much of the harvest based upon the amount i want to plant/grow next season, maybe 3/4! the guy i buy from charges just $4 a pound and he is organic!!!!! one of the guys i talked to at the farmers market told me he wholesales his to whole foods and he is organic and he gets $6.50 a pound, wholesale!!!!! so i gotta find the guy i dealt with last summer for about 30 pounds of garlic and that'd be $120! but i think that would allow me to have enought to plant and eat all year. yes, it was very successful and i am very pleased with the results. garlic is easy to grow. the hardest part is cutting the scapes when it's 90 and humid but anything is difficult under those conditions! as a side note, ever grow grandfather ashlock (i'm on tomatoes now)? i tried it this year and it is 1 heck of a fantastic tomato rivaling earl's faux! tom's yellow wonder was the only other new variety i grew this year and it too is quite good. i am not a fan of yellow tomatoes but tyw is very good. the 1st 1 i ate i would have thought it was a red tomato it had such good flavor. they are huge too 1 to 3 pounds. tom

Randall, based on your location, here's the government poop on your soil (see below the demarcation). I'm guessing it's not red clay, but rather has some yellow clay in it. Does it look like the picture at the bottom of this post (farm near Raleigh)? I'd recommend fescue if you want a year-round green lawn. If your soil doesn't crust and get hard during the summer, you can use lime. Otherwise, use gypsum to break up the hard clay surface and Milorganite when it comes time to plant fescue seed. You should never have to dethatch, but aerating once or twice a year can help OM get deeper and work faster after you have a lawn going. You actually can top dress with granular lime right after seeding and don't worry about the nitrogen reaction. it won't matter that much. I have used peat moss or vermiculite as a top dressing also, but I have a commercial level Hunter irrigation system to keep that moist with regular spritzes. Fescue doesn't like to be covered too much, and even good seed can take three weeks to germinate (sprout). Straw helps, but I sometimes use a very lightweight insect cloth in 100-foot rolls to cover seed for the first three weeks. As soon as the grass is popping up, pull that off so the new sprouts don't "damp off." Look for the freshest seed you can find, direct from Oregon. Several sources on the internet when it comes to buying seed. Meanwhile, yes by all means find worms. I can't tell you how nice it is to see piles 4-inches in diameter of wormcastings in my yard this time of year, all over the place. One worm near a Pro-Spray head was about 10-inches long. He was a monster. We have little "cocoons" or egg thingees all over the raised vegetable garden, which has tons of azaleas, camellias and mountain laurels interspersed around additional raised beds for those good ol' veggies. We actually had tomatoes still two weeks ago! Anyway, the cocoons are future worms. Google earthworm images on the net so you can learn to recognize them. If you find them in the woods or anywhere, grab them and put them in your yard. Worms will find a way to organic material, even in clay soils, and they are indispensable. Good luck. ================================================= DURHAM SERIES The Durham series consists of deep, well drained moderately permeable soils formed in loamy residuum from acid crystalline rock. They are nearly level to sloping soils on broad ridges of the Piedmont. TAXONOMIC CLASS: Fine-loamy, siliceous, semiactive, thermic Typic Hapludults TYPICAL PEDON: Durham loamy sand--cultivated. (Colors are for moist soil unless otherwise stated.) Ap--0 to 8 inches; light brownish gray (10YR 6/2) loamy sand; weak coarse granular structure; very friable; medium acid; clear smooth boundary. (6 to 10 inches thick) BA1--8 to 13 inches; pale brown (10YR 6/3) loamy sand; weak coarse granular structure; very friable; strongly acid; clear smooth boundary. (4 to 10 inches thick) BA2--13 to 16 inches; pale brown (10YR 6/3) sandy loam; weak medium granular structure; friable, slightly brittle; strongly acid; clear smooth boundary. (0 to 4 inches thick) Bt1--16 to 25 inches; brownish yellow (10YR 6/6) sandy clay loam; moderate medium subangular blocky structure; friable, slightly sticky, slightly plastic; thin continuous clay films; strongly acid; clear smooth boundary. (8 to 10 inches thick) Bt2--25 to 36 inches; yellowish brown (10YR 5/8) heavy sandy clay loam, few fine and medium distinct (7.5YR 5/6) strong brown and yellowish red (5YR 4/6) mottles; moderate medium subangular blocky structure; friable, slightly sticky, slightly plastic; thin continuous clay films; strongly acid; gradual smooth boundary. (10 to 14 inches thick) Bt3--36 to 42 inches; mottled yellowish brown (10YR 5/8), strong brown (7.6YR 5/8), and yellowish red (5YR 5/8) sandy clay loam; weak medium subangular blocky structure; friable, slightly sticky, slightly plastic; thin patchy clay films on vertical faces of peds; few fine flakes of mica; strongly acid; gradual wavy boundary. (0 to 8 inches thick) BC--42 to 48 inches; mottled yellowish brown (10YR 5/4), strong brown (7.5YR 5/6), and yellowish red (5YR 5/8) sandy clay loam; weak medium subangular blocky structure; friable; few fine flakes of mica; few bodies of sandy loam; strongly acid; gradual wavy boundary. (5 to 12 inches thick) C--48 to 60 inches; mottled yellow, yellowish red, and pale brown saprolite that crushes to sandy loam; rock structure; friable; strongly acid. TYPE LOCATION: Wake County, North Carolina; five miles south of Rolesville, North Carolina, on county road 2227, 1/4 mile east of Bethany Baptist Church at junction of county road 1003; 50 feet north of road in cultivated field. RANGE IN CHARACTERISTICS: The thickness of the loamy horizons over saprolite range from 40 to more than 60 inches below the surface. Depth to bedrock is more than 5 feet. Coarse fragments range from 0 to 5 percent throughout. The soil is strongly acid or very strongly acid except where the surface has been limed. The A or Ap horizons have hues of 7.5YR, 10YR, and 2.5Y, value of 4 to 6, and chroma of 1 to 3. The BA horizon as hue of 10YR and 2.5Y, value of 6 to 8, chroma of 1 to 4. The A horizon is loamy coarse sand, loamy sand, sandy loam, or fine sandy loam. Where present, BA and BE horizons of sandy loam are pale brown, brownish yellow, brown, or light yellowish brown. The Bt horizon has hue of 7.5YR, 10YR, or 2.5Y, value of 5 to 8, and chroma of 4 to 8. It has few to common reddish, brownish, or yellowish mottles. Mottles in chroma of 2 or less are below the upper 20 inches of the Bt horizon. It is sandy clay loam or clay loam. Some pedons have lower Bt horizon of sandy clay, but the textural control section averages less than 35 percent clay. The BC horizon is similar in color to the Bt horizon except where the mottles are more contrasting. It is sandy loam, sandy clay loam, or clay loam. The B3 horizon contains weatherable minerals such as mica and feldspar. The C horizon is mottled or varicolored saprolite of acid crystalline rock. It is sandy loam or loamy sand. COMPETING SERIES: These are the Apison, Cahaba, Cowarts, Emporia, Euharlee, Granville, Hartsells, Kempsville, Linker, Marvyn, Nauvoo, Nectar, Pirum, Spadra, and Suffolk series. Apison, Hartsells, Linker, and Pirum soils have bedrock at depths less than 40 inches. Cahaba, Nauvoo, and Nectar soils have redder hue. Cowarts, Emporia, Kempsville, Marvyn, Spadra, and Suffolk soils lack weatherable minerals in the lower solum and have C horizons of Coastal Plain or old alluvial sediments. Euharlee soils contain more silt. Granville soils are higher in exchangeable aluminum. GEOGRAPHIC SETTING: Durham soils are on nearly level to sloping Piedmont uplands. Slopes are commonly 2 to 5 percent and range from 0 to 10 percent. Durham soils formed in residuum weathered from acid crystalline rocks, chiefly granite and gneiss. Mean annual precipitation is about 47 inches and the mean annual temperature is about 60 degrees F. near the type location. GEOGRAPHICALLY ASSOCIATED SOILS: These are the Appling, Cecil, Helena, Louisburg, Pacolet, Vance, Wedowee, and Worsham series. Appling, Cecil, Helena, Pacolet, Vance, Wedowee, and Worsham soils contain more clay and Louisburg soils contain less clay. Helena and Worsham soils have mottles with chroma 2 or less in the upper 20 inches of the control section and occupy lower positions on the landscape. DRAINAGE AND PERMEABILITY: Well drained; medium runoff; moderate permeability in upper subsoil and moderately slow permeability in lower subsoil. USE AND VEGETATION: About two thirds of the total acreage is in cultivation or pasture. The remainder is in mixed hardwood and pine. Common crops grown are corn, soybeans, tobaco, cotton, small grain, and vegetables. Native tree species include loblolly pine, short leaf pine, Viginia pine, sweetgum, whiteoak, red oak, post oak, hickory, and yellow-poplar. Understory species include flowering dogwood, persimmon, sourwood, red maple, eastern redbud, eastern redcedar, and common sassafras DISTRIBUTION AND EXTENT: Piedmont of North Carolina, Alabama, Georgia, South Carolina, and Virginia. The series is of moderate extent. MLRA SOIL SURVEY REGIONAL OFFICE (MO) RESPONSIBLE: Raleigh, North Carolina SERIES ESTABLISHED: Raleigh to New Bern Area, North Carolina, 1900. REMARKS: Durham soils were formerly placed in the Red-Yellow Podzolic great soil group. They ranged in texture of the B horizon from moderately-fine to fine, and in drainage from well drained to moderately well drained. This revision restricts the texture of the argillic horizon to fine-loamy and the drainage class to well drained. Here is a link that might be useful: Cecil soil (probably what you have)

hey tommy, i have thought about planting that filibusta in the ground. it will grow back as long as the spear stays intact. i have had i oiutside through snow storms and ice storms and its survived so far. the way i defeated the moles was by putting down chicken wire underground in the hole before planting the plams or cacti. the moles seem to just go around it and they leave my plants alone. i have other plants like salmon cannas, red castor, silver medt. fan palm, pygmy date palm with actual dates, elephant yuccas (6 feet tall), several types of tiger lilly, crape myrtles (20 feet tall), hens and chicks cactus, and several prickly pear varieties. i also have many potted tropical plants too..i live in the white house area and these plants do great even being 1000ft above sea level. my area sees strange weather events so these plants are great for xeriscaping. let me know if you want me to post somemore pix of my plants.. :)