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High Def TV

Posted by nine7xbam (My Page) on
Wed, Mar 8, 06 at 12:52

Thinking of getting a big screen high definition tv this year to replace my 16 year old Colortrack 2000 27" console. The formats as I see them,Plasma great picture-high cost and limited lifespan,supposedly picture quality starts to go after 5 years if you use the set a lot,as I do.LCD projection -poor black level and screen door effect when viewed from angles.DLP best bang for the buck ,until you realize that bulbs are expensive and have a short lifespan if you use the set often,also possible artifacts from the spinning color wheel called rainbow effect.

So Im leaning towards old tech CRT rear projection big screen HD until the new technologies are perfected.However Samsung is releasing a new 56" DLP in April that uses LEDs in place of a bulb and also eliminates the spinning color wheel.I probably won't decide until I see this new technology in person.I'd appreciate any feedback from those who have seen this new technology in action.


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: High Def TV

I have a DLP. First, only about 5% of the population see's the rainbows. And I have yet to meet anyone that actually does.

Second, the light bulbs are rated for about 6000 hours on average. If, on average, you watch T.V. say 6 hours a day, that would be 1000 days, or 3 years (give or take). The bulbs are about $200. That's not expensive.

The LCD's have the same bulbs btw.

CRT rear projection is as dead as B&W sets were in the mid 70's. They weigh a ton, and the picture is not even close to the new technology.

The LED sets are going to cost a lot more than the bulb ones, so if you are that worried about bulb replacement, go with that. I would get a set that can do 1080p though, and has at least one DVI and HDMI port (if not two of each).

Welcome to the HD revolution - you'll never leave your home again lol


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I think the black level and LCDs vrs Plasmas is an old debate, most of the newer LCD's actually do a decent job with black levels and it's not as much an issue with the new LCDs these days, Of course, you should compare LCDs vrs Plasmas yourself and decide for you. Viewing angles on most LCDs are now 160deg and I don't see the need for much further unless you like watching the side of a TV. :)

I think at a pricepoint, the DLP/CRT screens will still have better quality but the size and flexibility of display is why those who have chosen LCD or Plasmas chose what they did.

Jay


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RE: High Def TV

The few HD channels available now don't justify spending big bucks on a set right now IMO.On Friday I got a 51" Hitachi HD CRT set and an Onkyo 780 home theater system- total cost just under $1400. I got a Comcast DVR HD tuner installed Saturday and the Discovery HD channel is stunning! Saw a baseball game and a (boring) boxing match in HD and the colors on dvds are so vibrant,it's like watching them for the first time!I will probably get an upconverting dvd player next.And in 2-3 years when most channels are in HD I'll upgrade to a bigger, newer technology monitor.Looking forward to seeing the Toshiba SED sets in the fall of 2007.


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RE: High Def TV

I could not disagree more that rear projection is "dead" or that "the picture is not even close to the new technology". I'd stack my 3 year old Pioneer up against any of today's sets.

If you don't have the room or if you have the money to spend, then by all means go with the newer technologies. But if you're on a budget and have the space, do not rule out RPTV by any means.


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RE: High Def TV

Check out AVS forums. http://www.avsforum.com/
They have a thread for rear-projection TV's plus a whole lot more threads on TV's. Right now, I am waiting on an AVS "power buy" on the new Samsung rear projection TV to be coming out this month. You do not have to pay anything to join the forum, but benefit from the "power buy", if interested in Samsung. Don't know how much of a savings it might be though.
Gary


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RE: High Def TV

Panasonic & Pioneer among others claim a 60,000 hour half-life for their plasma TV. That's watching your TV 8 hours a day 7 days a week for 20.5 years before you notice any appreciable decline in the brightness of the TV. Also the old problem of "burn-in" has pretty much been eliminated - you just need to be careful of how you use the plasma during it's first 100 hours of use.

As far as what type of TV to get, it all depends upon your budget, how much room you have, and how much of a "videophile" you are. I practicality, you may not want to spend the $ for the "best" because you might be quite happy with a "good" TV.

If you like the microdisplays, besides LCD & DLP there is a another technology called LCoS (liquid crystal on silicon). Sony has 50" & 60" LCoS TV's which they call SXRD which have gotten fantastic reviews. The SXRD's are not cheap, but if you are looking for a great TV and are worried about plasmas check it out.

I disagree with nine7xbam that there aren't enough HD shows to justify the price of the new tvs. Most of the shows I watch now from the major networks and most sporting events are in HD and the difference betweed Standard Definition is night and day.


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RE: High Def TV

Jeez I wish I had your cable system, mine only has 6 HD channels and 4 digital,plus I have HBO HD for a total of 11 channels. I'm a Met fan and the new Mets sports channel SNY is advertised as an HD channel but Comcast of NW NJ only carries it in standard def,so right now I can only see Met games in HD on Fox and the WB as any Met games on ESPN in the NY area are blacked out!Still I've had my rear projection CRT HD set for 3 weeks now and love it! I suspect one reason why many tv salesmen try to steer customers away from these sets is that their commission on the newer sets with their more expensive warranty extensions(a must have with these new technologies) ,is a lot more than the older cheaper CRT sets.

I do agree that the picture on the Sony SXRD is stunning as is the JVC LCoS DILA system.I will upgrade someday when price comes down and reliability of the newer sets go up.Right now the people who spent big bucks on the early LCD and DLP projection sets are like people who bought early computers,only to see them become quickly obsolete. With excessive screen door effect and failed bulbs and color wheels as well as the dreaded dead pixcels these early sets are yesterday's news and in some cases,money down the drain.I will be going soon to check out Samsung's new LED bulb DLP,sans color wheel,but the Toshiba/Canon SED system seemed to have the most promise,until problems pushed it back 18 months.


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RE: High Def TV

Another forum to check out is http://www/hometheaterspot.com.

I prever it over AVS, but have read both for years. AVS tends to have more users that get "personal" and rip on people for their questions. However, I think it has more users, so more available opinions. The SPOT doesn't tend to have as many "jerks".

Scott


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RE: High Def TV

nine7xbam - We have 19 HD channels but unfortunately SNY in HD isn't one of them (yet). Surpising that Comcast does not broadcast SNY HD to you given that they are one of the owners (Time-Warner & the Mets being the other owners). Interesting but I've noticed that YES HD only broadcasts for home games plus away games against the Mets and Red Sox. (I'm a Met's fan, but will watch the Yankees when there is nothing else on TV.)

I haven't seen the JVC version of LCoS but all the articles I've read said the Sony version is by far the better option.


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RE: High Def TV

I post on a couple of Met boards and so far no one has the SNY channel in HD, so I don't think it is in HD anywhere yet,even though they advertise it as an HD channel.Easter Sunday's game will be on the WB (in HD)though(with many more Sunday games to follow) and Fox(HD) has a string of Saturday Met games coming up in May.I will be at the family's for Easter,but the Comcast HD box has a built in DVR that records in HD.Too bad about SNY though,because it looks like the Mets are going to have a very good year!

I felt that the JVC 72" set at 6th Avenue Electronics had the very best picture in the whole huge room full of HD sets,but the Sony SXRD set wasn't available there yet.It will be interesting to see the new advances in HD technology over the next few years and since I only paid 900 bucks and change for my first HD set,selling it for $500 or so shouldn't be a problem when I move up to a newer technology.


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RE: High Def TV

Time Warner in NYC has SNY in HD. I sent Cablevision an e-mail asking when they would start carrying it but so far no response. I heard a rumor earlier this year that Cablevision would be expaning the # of HD channels this summer. Hope that's true and maybe we'll get SNY HD then.

Today I saw the 56" JVC D-ILA (LCoS) at Best Buy on 5th Ave next to the Sony 60" SXRD and the Sony looked 10X better. Now you have to take that with a grain of salt because you don't know how the TVs are set up and how good the feed is on one versus the other.


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Just found out Cablevision does broadcast SNY in HD. It's on Channel 730 which is INHD2. They pre-empt the regular programming to show the Mets games in HD.


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RE: High Def TV

"DLP best bang for the buck ,until you realize that bulbs are expensive and have a short lifespan if you use the set often"

The Sony SXRD is the best bang for the buck. Sure it's expensive, but it's the best TV out there. The bulb is rated at 8,000 hours, and cost's $200. I sure don't consider that expensive at all.


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If you read forums like hideftv.com you'll see that one of the main gripes with bulb projection sets is that not all people are getting the projected lifespan out of these bulbs.In fact some are going out after a few months,while others are still working ,but giving a darker picture.That's why I bought an old tech CRT set and am waiting a few years until this new technology sorts itself out.Even at 8K hours,I would be replacing that bulb every 18 months and that's totally unacceptable!


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I have a 5 year protection agreement on my SXRD, so I'm not that concerned about the cost of bulbs. I work PT at Sears and our TV's sit on display for a year at a time, and they are on for 11 hours a day. I have only seem one bulb ever out on a TV on the sales floor. So the bulbs last just fine, AND if I had to replace my bulb even once a year, I would have no problem with that. Have you ever seen the picture on the SXRD? It would be well worth it.


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RE: High Def TV

You just better hope that the bulb doesn't blow 30 minutes prior to your Super Bowl party when you've got 25+ guests showing up. You never know when a bulb could go.


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RE: High Def TV

yzfmk-If you only work part time ,how do you know if the bulbs go and get replaced when you aren't there? If the set cost around $2500,the extended warranty $500,and a bulb a year for $200,that's $5000 over ten years.Not worth it IMO . You may as well get a plasma for 5K and not worry about changing bulbs.


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RE: High Def TV

I only work part time, but when a repair is needed it takes days to get a tech there. I always notice when a set is down. Actually the TV retails for $3,499 and the bulbs are $200. Why would I buy a plasma when NO plasma, or any other set for that matter compares to the SXRD. And if my bulb goes out 30 min before Super Bowl, then I'll take my HD LCD off my bathroom wall and watch that, although it's a little smaller. What if YOUR TV breaks 30 min before Super Bowl? What will YOU do? I guess I don't mind the risks being that I have just about the best TV on the market. That is a fact, read the reviews.


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RE: High Def TV

yzfmik - calm down buddy. First off, I do admire the SXRD. My brother has the 60" and my cousin has the 50" so I have plenty of experience with it. With a good HD signal or a DVD it produces an excellent picture. BUT...
the SXRD does not have as deep blacks as the best plasmas;
the SXRD does not display standard definition tv as good as the best plasmas;
the SXRD fades noticably when viewed from the side or above like every other rear projection tv (unlike a plasma);
the SXRD produces colors that are oversaturated and not lifelike...

The reviews of the SXRD say that it is the best rear projection microdisplay available. They do not say it is the best tv available.

As far as a bulb blowing before a Super Bowl party, it actually happened to a friend of mine this year (on a Samsung DLP) and he and his guest had to watch the game on a smaller SD CRT tv. It has a bulb and at some point it will blow. The chances of a tv needing repair at anytime never mind just before the big game are infinitesimal.


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"the SXRD fades noticably when viewed from the side or above like every other rear projection tv"

Not like every other rear pro jo TV. Go to a store and compare it next to ANY other pro jo TV. No the viewing angle is not that of a plasma or a tube, but it is FAR better than ANY other projection tv. I can see it from an extreme angle sitting right here in my office.

"the SXRD produces colors that are oversaturated and not lifelike..."

Your friends obviously need a lesson in setting up the TV. I've yet to see a plasma that looks better than an SXRD, and I look at them all day. You forgot another thing that plamsa does better than the SXRD, produce glare. I have a Panasonic TH-42PX60U also, and sure it looks great, but it's no SXRD.


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RE: High Def TV

yzfmik

Ahh, so you are admitting the SXRD fades when viewed from the side... just not as bad as other projection tvs.

Sorry to tell you that light at the right angle will produce glare on ANY tv. Just put your plasma on a wall mount,tilt it slightly and the glare goes away completely. Can't do that with the SXRD.

Maybe you like oversaturated colors, but go back and read those glowing reviews of the SXRD and all the reviews note the problem.

As to the Panasonic 42PX60U, at least step up to the 50" to make it a fair comparison, otherwise the size difference and the lower pixel count of the 42" versus the 50" (1024 x 768 v 1366 x 768) gives the SXRD an unfair advantage. I'd put the Panasonic 50PX60U against the 50" SXRD for overall picture quality. Just make sure to take the Panny out of the vivid mode which they ship the unit in.

I could have the 60" SXRD if I wanted it (and save some $), but I'm waiting for the Panasonic 58" 58PX600U because I believe overall it has a better picture.


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RE: High Def TV

The pic slightly fades on an angle, however from an extreme angle, of which no one actually watches a TV, it is still a beautiful bright pic. The glare is minimal on a projection TV, the glare is terrible on a plasma. Any TV can be postitioned to reduce the glare. As far as the oversaturation, there are tons of adjustments, and if you spend enough time with it, you can get the pic perfect. At the store I work at, we have the SXRD next to the 50" Panasonic. Sure the Panasonic looks great, but virtually everyone that compares the 2 prefer the SXRD. I think they both look good, just the SXRD looks better. I can fairly compare them since I own them both. Sorry my 42" is tiny, but it is still a fair comparison. Your very opinionated for someone that owns neither, I can give my honest opinion since I own both.


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RE: High Def TV

yzfmik:

Hey, I'm sorry - I forgot you work at Sears part-time. Obviously you must be the ultimate authority on tvs.

You have your OPINION and I have mine. Your right, I don't own either tv, but I'm looking to get one and have done extensive research on both of them. I have two close relatives who own the SXRD and I have had the opportunity to watch numerous hours of HD/SD/DVD content on it. I have also viewed the SXRD and the 50PX60U next to each other in a high-end audio-video store (sorry I don't shop at Sears) and feel that the Panasonic plasma produces a more life-like picture.

I have a 58PX600U on order. If I didn't strongly believe the Panasonic has the better all around picture I would have gotten the SXRD a month ago rather than wait until June/July for Panasonic to release their 58" plasmas (which are more expensive than the SXRD).

You are pretty opinionated yourself claiming that the SXRD is the perfect tv. The SXRD is an excellent tv but it is not perfect by any means. As I said before, re-read those reviews as they point out that the SXRD is not without its flaws. Read through avsforum.com and you will find plenty of people who agree with me that the Panasonic (and the Pioneer) plasma produces a better overall picture, especially on anything less than a perfect HD signal.


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RE: High Def TV

"Obviously you must be the ultimate authority on tvs."

Lucky for you I am, since I have them both. I to have done research and did not want a plasma for my "main" TV, so I bought the best rear projection TV. I don't have as much space in my 2nd family room and wanted the plasma in there. The Panasonic was my choice for that room. I primarily watch HD broadcasts on Brighthouse cable. Luckily I have an extremely strong signal, and I just like the pic better on the SXRD. Believe it or not, I decided to buy a HD set after I bought my X-Box 360. I had a 36" Sony, and it (360) looked ok, but then I saw it on a friends HD set, and that did it for me, so I bought the SXRD, and let me tell you the 360 looks unbelievable on it. Enjoy your Panasonic, I'll enjoy mine. And I'm sorry that I work PT at such a craphole store, but I have lots of free time since I only work 10 days a month at the FD, so I enjoy the people there, and the discount.


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RE: High Def TV

Sorry kid, but you really don't know what you are talking about. You keep referring to your 42" plasma when you don't even realize that 1024x768 is not considered HD under ATSC guidlines. You have to step up to the 50" with 1366x768 to get true HD. (Sorry buddy but having over 33% more pixels does make a difference.)

If all you watch is HD signals, then your SXRD will look fantastic. Most people, however, view more than just HD, and the SXRD magnifies the faults in the picture with anything less than HD. That is why Sony goes out of its way to make sure that all its authorized retailers only feed the SXRD an HD signal.

Let's see, you work 10 days a month at the fire department and part-time at Sears. Either your your putting your TVs in your Mommy's house or your full of it.


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RE: High Def TV

"and the SXRD magnifies the faults in the picture with anything less than HD."

Ahh thats where you are completely wrong. Non HD signals look much better on the SXRD than other HD sets. I stand corrected on the plasma issue. I never made myself out to be an "expert" like yourself. I just know what I see on mine, and read about the SXRD. Every review I read about the SXRD were excellent. How am I "full of it"? You don't know what I make and my wifes income. My parents are gone, and I live with my wife and 2 kids in a 4/3/3 house with a pool, completed last July in central Florida. I am far from a kid, I wish I was still one, lol. I will enjoy my SXRD, you enjoy your plasma.


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RE: High Def TV

Oh, so now I supposed to believe that your wife is the bread winner who lets you stay home an play X-Box all day.

Go re-read all those reviews of the SXRD. I'm not the only one who thinks it only looks OK with a SD signal.


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RE: High Def TV

Don't mean to butt in between this entertaining debate,but isn't the creme de la creme of hi def tv ,the very best,the Sharp Aquos 65" flat panel LCD ? For 20K it should be!


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RE: High Def TV

at least until the 65" 1080p Panasonic plasma comes out or better yet the 103" 1080p.


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RE: High Def TV

"Oh, so now I supposed to believe that your wife is the bread winner who lets you stay home an play X-Box all day"

No, but she does pretty well for herself though. So how is it I stay home all day when I have two jobs? You don't listen very well do ya? And out of the several reviews I read on the SXRD they had very positive things to say about the standard signal. Again I have a very strong signal from Brighthouse cable so it's not a big issue, it looks superb. Anyway Mr. Internet tough guy, I suppose it's pretty childish that we are even arguing about this anyway. How many people out there are not as fortunate as us to be whining about which of our several thousand dollar TV's is better. I think we should agree to disagree, and be thankful we have the means to enjoy such nice TV's. I know alot of people that are watchin 19" Sanyos that would die to have either set.


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RE: High Def TV

"So how is it I stay home all day when I have two jobs? You don't listen very well do ya?"

"I have lots of free time since I only work 10 days a month at the FD"

I'm listening, you just keep contradicting yourself. That's my last comment. I don't have all your free time to waste on this anymore.


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RE: High Def TV

I'm not sure if this is still the case or not, but isn't screen burn an issue with plasma? Where DLP and LCD RP are not susceptible.
Dave


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"I'm listening"

I have 2 jobs, I'm hardly home. When I am I'm usually spending time with my girls. I think it's funny that you refered to me as a "kid", however you are the one on here that won't let this go. Maybe if you ever get a TV as nice as me, you will spend your free time watching it, instead of trying to be an internet tough guy.


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RE: High Def TV

yzf, I've been reading this thread for awile. Don't let mike1117 get to you. Its obvious that he is close minded and only likes plasma for some unknown reason. Someone must have steered him wrong and he believed it. I too did alot of research on the Sony sxrd, and came to the conclusion that it is the best rear projection tv. The only area that a plasma is better, is if you want to hang it on the wall. I see so many people with plasmas that they put on a stand. Whats the point? LCD projections are a better choice than a plasma. And for the viewing angle of the sxrd, have you seen the viewing angle? You can see it bright and clear from any angle. Also who watches a tv from an angle that extreme? That critisism is great when you cant find any real reasons a plasma is better. Anyone that thinks a plasma is better has not seen a sxrd.


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RE: High Def TV

Everyone has their own opinion,but the consensus is that the plasma will have better black levels and have a better picture quality on standard def pictures.But a 50" plasma ain't cheap and when the internal gases get old and the PQ goes,nothing to do but throw it out.By contrast a rear projection tv can be made new again with a new bulb,but as long as you own the set bulbs will be a constant expense.That is why I look forward to the Toshiba/Canon SED technology which supposedly has the black levels of a CRT but with a cost much lower than plasma ,combined with the long life of a CRT.Pushed back until the fall of 07,I hope it's worth the wait.


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1. Burn in is no longer an issue with modern plasma screens.

2. The half-life of a modern plasma screen is approximately 60,000-70,000 hours. That's watching TV at least 8 hours a day every day for 21 years. Heck after 21 years I'll go out and buy another plasma.


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RE: High Def TV

Plasmas and especially tubes do have better black levels than LCD projections, however, the SXRD is an exception to that rule. Anyone that has read the reviews will see that the SXRD has black level that rival a tube. And bulbs being a "constant expense" is not really an issue. Bulbs, especially on the SXRD, last quite a long time, and are relatively inexpensive. That small expense every few years is a small price to pay for the incredible picture it produces. If your worried about the bulb going out before the Superbowl, World Series game, Queer Eye for the Straight Guy, or whatever you like to watch, just have an extra bulb on hand when the hours are getting up there. A bulb is only $200, and takes a less than a minute to change once the blown one cools.


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I'm not dissing plasma Mike their PQ is excellent and the burn in issue is a thing of the past,but unless they came down in price I can't ever see myself buying a 50" or larger plasma set.The cable w/internet bill I got today from Comcast was $147,that's with 2 cable boxes,1 HD,1 standard,HBO, and high speed internet with my own modem.I'll use the savings with my CRT rear projection to pay those bills,even though I can afford more there are few HD channels right now and most tv today is reality crapola!But oh those rare Met games on ESPN HD that look like moving postcards!I look back on the days 20 years ago in my tiny efficiency apartment with my click tuner cable box and my 19" Sharp(poor man's Sony) fixed to get Sportschannel for free at a total cost of $36 with fond nostalgia!


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LCD Flat Panel vs. Plasma

I've been looking for a 2nd set for my den ,smaller than the 51" in my living room , to replace my old SD set which is looking washed out a bit . And frankly the LCD flat panels in the 32"-42" inch range blow away the plasma sets in the same size/price range ! My sight isn't the best ,but even without glasses (to see far) I can see the dots in the screen mask in the plasmas from 8 feet away .No better than the old CRT tube sets IMO .


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RE: High Def TV

I have the Sony KDL-V40XBR1 which I overpaid for a few months ago. Despite that,I have to say though that every time I watch it whether on Digital cable or on HDTV cable, or with a DVD, I am very glad I have it.
As far as plasma vs. LCD flat screen, I don't know which is objectively better in various aspects but I spent a while comparing the pictures on 37" - 45" sets in order to make my own decision. For my own taste and vision, the plasma screens looked too grainy and the glass screens made them too shiney/glitzy for me. Also, the LCDs I viewed had far better pictures off-axis, which was important to me.
Of the LCD sets, Sony and Sharp looked the best to me, and in the end, the Sony won based on the picture and the appearance of the set itself.
Sony now has an improved version of this set and the old one is about $1,000 less than I paid. If you are young and have a long time to wait for HDTV/flat screens, you will undoubtedly get an even better price.


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Samsung LCD flat panel sets also seem to have a very nice picture quality . I also agree about the grainy look of many plasma sets . As the price of LCD flat panel drops , I feel more and more people will make it their choice as the rear projections have their flaws in bulb life and color wheels wearing out . The reason many people give me for not buying an HD set is price and constant bulb replacement , burn in of plasmas , and just a general aversion to technology that will be overpriced and obsolete in a couple of years. Whoever comes out with a 42"-50" HD set around 1k that will last as long as a crt set without constant bulb replacement or burn in will have the format that will really sell to the HD apprehensive masses !


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