John, Don't worry about thinking your are being too assertive... no offense is taken. I'm just genuinely curious as to why the soft water is perceived as being so terrible. I often see many quite firm statements on a variety of topics (water, fertilizer, temperature, sunlight, methods for planting in ground, etc...) related home gardening. There is a sound horticultural basis behind many of these recommendations, but at the same time I see many firm recommendations that for most people likely make no difference one way or the other. I don't see the point of having this huge list of varying do's and don'ts if a large portion of the recommendations either are minimally helpful, or don't really have any impact. When I began growing container citrus several years ago, I started out all gung-ho trying to do everything under the sun that was recommended to make my trees happy especially in winter (grow lights, supplemental heating, boosting the humidity, etc...). The end result invariably was sickly looking trees. I've had much better luck not really doing too much and allowing the trees to acclimate gradually on their own to whatever their current environment happens to be. Getting back to the soft water question. I completely agree that too much sodium chloride will kill plants, especially citrus. I would also add that too much salt of any kind could kill your plants, of course the lethal concentrations will vary quite widely depending on the specific toxicities. An ion exchange water softener does not add sodium chloride to the water. The sodium chloride is just used to regenerate the ion exchange resin by saturating it with sodium ions. The softening process only replaces the magnesium and calcium ions with sodium. The primary anion before and after treatment should remain carbonate, no additional chloride is added. Since sodium carbonate is much more soluble in water than either magnesium or calcium carbonate, one could argue that it would be more difficult to build up high concentrations of it in the container. This is assuming that one flushes their container with excess water on a semi regular basis. Nevertheless, I doubt this aspect really makes much significant difference one way or the other if the container is being flushed with water periodically. While thinking about this whole issue, I also came across several research papers that investigate the effects of salinity on citrus. The primary toxic effects of "salinity" on citrus are increased osmotic stress and specific ion toxicities. Again, if one is flushing their container with water semi-regularly, osmotic stress should never become an issue, as the excess accumulated salts will be washed out regularly. With respect to ion toxicity, the general consensus seems to be that chloride is a more significant issue than sodium. However, the water softening process does not really add any chloride to the the treated water, therefore its concentration is no different than in the untreated water. The concentration of sodium carbonate in the "softened" water is also not really ever going to be that high (in the neighborhood of 200 ppm, if the input water is classified as very hard). I've seen a study (link below) that subjected citrus to salt (sodium chloride and/or calcium chloride) at concentrations up to 6000 ppm. Although the differences in response to the salt challenge were clearly noticeable among the tested cultivars, the most significantly damaged trees only showed a "slight marginal burn" on the leaves. So even assuming there was 200 ppm sodium chloride in the softened water, it would take several months of watering with no flushing of the soil to build up to these high salt concentrations where there are clearly visible toxicity effects. In summary, I do not see any scientific basis for why "softened" water should be perceived as so bad for citrus culture. At the same time, there is not much evidence that it has any significant benefits. In the absence of finding any direct studies investigating this question, I think the issue is largely irrelevant for container citrus culture. If a few basic care practices are observed (mainly not treating your soil as a black hole in which an infinite amount of fertilizer and soluble salts from the water supply can be allowed to accumulate), it shouldn't really matter. I will add one final caveat, if signs of salt toxicity do happen to appear irrespective of the water source, then one should absolutely start trying to isolate and correct the problem. John, I'm curious to know if you have any additional thoughts. In any case, cheers, and thanks for the discussion! -Scott PS Susan, my sincere apologies for taking your thread off on a little tangent. Here is a link that might be useful: Salt tolerance of some citrus

Voice of experience - i was sure that Henry Kelsey was dead last spring but when i dug him out, there were shoots coming from one of the roots. Looks like that baby has made it through - there are green rose leaves in the pot that's buried in the ground. I found some green on the canes of Morden Sunrise and Delicata, but most of my roses are still pretty much buried, if not in snow then in their boxes full of leaves.

Busy, busy days so I couldn't get here for an update - better late than never, right? What a difference 24 hours can make. For starters, Ross seems to have gotten a much better night's sleep (no racing thoughts) and that alone will start a day with a better perspective. He texted me first thing Friday to say that he's put a lot of things together in his mind and has a better understanding of why he 'crashed' and feels more in control, at least in the context of the program he's in. Two days ago he wanted to bail but last night he felt empowered to stay, glean what he can, and let go of feeling inadequate for the program - most of the students are feeling the same way. We've spoken a few times since but between his 18 hour days and the time difference, we don't have a chance to get into long conversations. He sounds so much better, though and I can breathe a bit again. He's coming home the day after the program ends, will have a week here with us and his cousins/my nieces and their kids. It's an interesting dynamic because there's a 1/2 step generation difference - my nieces are like my little sisters and his older sisters at the same time. I've been speaking with my middle niece who has dealt with anxiety issues and she will be great council for Ross. He has really isolated himself at college by choosing the location he did and much as he loves the place, the mountains, the snowboarding, it seems he is feeling the distance as he comes to the end of his college years. And I really think the state of the world, economy and job market are weighing heavily on him. It's damn scary to think about having to launch yourself at this time - I feel so sorry for all of our kids! But coming home will let him see what a large and varied support system he has - just wish his brother could be here also. We'll be doing some research to find a good medical fit for him at school. He has a horrendous fall schedule between classes, labs and research so I know going in he's going resist carving out time for regular sessions if that's needed. With his background, he's been 'therapied' up one side and down the other but maybe he's ready to approach it from the standpoint of an adult in control of the choices as opposed to a child being directed by mom and dad. I appreciate every perspective given here and don't want anyone to think their words were misplaced. In my mind, any information is good information and it's always in my power to sift through and use what fits. Or not. I think the internet can be a great place for advice but it's only a first step, nothing more - no expectations for instant cures. Chickadee I don't know the program you're referring to but there are no guarantees with this one so doesn't seem to be the same. Again, way too long! Thank you all for your comments and support. When I know more, you'll know more.

Pqsmom, I'm so happy you love your Buckingham! I can't wait for mine. I'm still not 100% at ease, but doing better. There have been a few snags (what a surprise since that never happens right?). For example in spite of asking the owner of the cabinet shop about 7 times if she was sure she had made the trash cabinet big enough since I thought the Rev A Shelf website saying the opening had to be 15" meant it needed a 16.5" cabinet, she repeatedly stated her specs said a 16" would be fine. Well, installer agreed with me since the trash didn't fit. Now they are going to have to re-cut that cabinet, adjust some stuff and re-order the door. They also sort of forgot to make the fridge cabinet or order the doors for it. Whoops. Anyway in spite of those and a couple other issues, they were still able to come out to template so at least the mistakes won't mean I have to wait even longer for my Buckingham - just as long as it takes to re-cut and install the messed up cabinets. I found the templating interesting since it sort of looked like two grown men doing a big arts and craft project, using plywood boards instead of toothpicks! But maybe that's just the renovation insanity setting in.