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clbflooring

Need Unbiased Opinions please

CLBFlooring
9 years ago

I am the owner of a flooring company. I had a customer contact me to find out if our company would install some ceramic tile that they purchased from Lowe's. We told the customer we could and agreed on a price. My installers arrived on the job and began installing the tile. There was some miscommunications with the border the customer wanted which in turn caused a shortage of tile. The customer went back to Lowe's to purchase more tile. Once receiving the tile, my installers finished the installation. I contacted the customer about 2 weeks later for payment, which our normal policy is payment at time of completion but we made exception for this customer, he said there was an issue with the grout. I then sent my installers back to rectify the problem. I did not hear from the customer back from the customer after that so, I called again for payment. At which time he informs he is not paying for the job because he is not happy with the shading differences in the tiles he purchased. I would like some opinions regarding who's responsibility is was for the tile. Is it the customer's responsibility to inspect the product they purchased before telling a company to install the product or is it the installation company's responsibility to inform the customer there are shade differences? Now, keep in mind, state clearly on the product's box is a note stating there will be shade differences. Thank you in advance!

Comments (37)

  • live_wire_oak
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    You weren't hired as a professional tile contractor to help select a quality product, receive it in and inspect it, to properly prepare the subfloor, and to develop a tile design that would work with the size tile chosen. You were hired as a laborer for install only. Any deficiencies to the job that resulted from those other portions of the job that the homeowner assumed responsibility for are not really your fault. But you didn't explain it that way to the customer what the consequences of their choice to act as the GC meant as to responsibility.

    It was your responsibility to be clear on the actual job that you were hired to do, including the layout that the customer wanted. You yourself say that it was your fault that you were short on the job, so I hope that you paid for the extra tile needed. It was also your responsibility to bring to the customer's attention the fact that the tile was from a different dye lot, and that they may want to stop the job until they could obtain tile from the original dye lot. And since it was your fault that you were short the materials, you should have offered to return without an added trip charge to finish the install when the homeowner exchanged the product for the proper dye lot.

    The customer is wrong to be withholding payment to you. But neither are you due full payment for the job that went south. It would be in your best interest to negotiate a discount off of the payment due.

    And, if the customer isn't amenable to that, take this as a lesson that you don't take labor only jobs like this where there are too many circumstances beyond your control affecting the job's outcome. It's not professional. It was a setup for a disaster to happen from the beginning, starting with the unknown quality and unknown floor prep.

    A true tile professional would send their customer to a flooring store (that doesn't sell seconds) in order to control the quality of the selections. They would discuss the pattern that the customer wanted before they ordered tile, and take responsibility for performing quality control of that tile once it was received. They'd also be the ones who'd do the prep of the floor, so that all of their hard work would withstand the years without failure. And, they'd charge something commensurate with all of the work involved rather than the typical $XX labor only charge per square foot that leaves you actually losing money on the job in the long run.

    How you handle this issue defines your business as whether or not you want to be a stand up actual contractor that contracts for a whole complete job, or a hired labor hack who gets blamed for things that are and aren't your fault. It's tuition in the school of hard knocks.

  • tibbrix
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm not sure why live_wire_oak believes the shortage of tile problem was yours. I read your post as the customer having already purchased the tile from Lowe's when he contacted you to install it. I don't see how the amount of tile purchased by the homeowner is your problem. The homeowner didn't ask you to supply the tile. He went out on his own to get it. He simply asked you to install it, which you did.

    You don't say what the problem with the grout was, but you do indicate that there was one in that you "rectified" the problem. You also don't say what the miscommunication was regarding the border tile.

    At any rate, you are not the manufacturer of the tile and therefore have no responsibility as to its coloring. You did what you were hired to do, which was to install it.

    The guy owes you full payment for the job. Chances are he's done this to other contractors. He sounds like a scoundrel, but of course we don't have his side of the story here.

  • live_wire_oak
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    " There was some miscommunications with the border the customer wanted which in turn caused a shortage of tile"

    He's the one saying that he caused the tile shortage, which caused the customer to have to purchase additional tile.

  • lazy_gardens
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    At which time he informs he is not paying for the job because he is not happy with the shading differences in the tiles he purchased.

    I would tell him that he can pay you for 100% of the labor and your materials in the adhesive and grout or you will take him to court for it.

    If you had bought the tile, you goofed on the quantity and had a color problem, my sympathies would be with the home-owner. However, it was his choice of tile, his problem with the quantity bought, and the color differences between lots.

    It may not be perfect, but I bet he's walking on it :)

  • jellytoast
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "The customer went back to Lowe's and purchased more tile" ...

    The CUSTOMER purchased the tile and now he wants to hold you responsible for installing it? He supplied your installers with the product HE CHOSE, so that pretty much puts the responsibility for the tile color in his court. If it was MY fault that more tile was needed, I would negotiate a discount. If it was HIS fault, I would demand full payment and if he refused, I would simply file the necessary papers for a lien against his property. There should have been something in writing regarding the layout and the way the tile was to be installed ... was there? What exactly was the miscommunication?

  • live_wire_oak
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    From another viewpoint. One that typically gets a lot of tea and sympathy.

    "I purchased some tile that I wanted laid in my laundry room. I had some overage like the tile store told me to do. I talked with the contractor about laying it and we talked about the pattern. When the time to lay it came, his crew were the ones there, not him, and they didn't know about the pattern. They'd already put some down, which they had to pull up and couldn't salvage. Therefore I had to go back and buy more tile. I don't know anything about tile. I thought if I bought more tile from the same store, it would all be the same. It was not the same exact color! Only the contractor went ahead and installed it instead of telling me that it was off. Now I have a two color floor! On top of that, the grout started coming up, and he had to come back out and fix that. I just wanted a new laundry room floor, and now I have something that I'm ashamed for people to see, and I'm not sure will even last. He's waiting on payment for the job, but I'm really unhappy with the whole experience. Do you think I owe him money for such a shoddy job?"

    And this is why I say that a compromise payment would be the best for everyone. No one is in the right here.

  • CLBFlooring
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Ok as far as the tile shortage is concerned. The customer gave Lowe's the dimensions of his room, what he wanted as far as a border and what the inlay would be and Lowe's decided how much tile he needed. To be more specific, the homeowner wanted two rows of 6" in tiles surrounding the outside and 12" tiles to fill in the center. He did purchase the tile before calling our company to install the tile.
    When I sent an installer out there to give him an estimate, the customer indicated he wanted a 24" border, which would be 4 rows of 6" tiles. This is where the confusion came into play. Once my installer started installing the tiles the customer indicated he was doing it wrong. But, according to the customer's original statement he wasn't doing it wrong. The customer made a mistake by saying 24" instead of 12". Now, no what happened with the border, it shouldn't of affected the amount of tile needed. Lowe's or the customer are responsible, being the fact that either the customer misinformed Lowe's of what he wanted or Lowe's made the mistake of shorting him of tile.

  • live_wire_oak
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    You undertook this job without anything clarified in writing, or a sketched out layout that was signed by the customer. I'm sorry, but the whole reason that contractors are called that is because they use a contract to codify the agreement of what work will be done for what fee. The customer is wrong for refusing to pay you, but you also made several mistakes that you can learn from on this job.

  • tibbrix
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Oh please, live_wire. He did what he agreed to do; he installed the tile, as the customer asked. He should be paid for it contract or no contract. Someone does a job for you, you pay him or her. You shouldn't need a contract to know that.

  • Vertise
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "At which time he informs he is not paying for the job because he is not happy with the shading differences in the tiles he purchased."

    Do you mean the additional tile purchased was a different lot that did not match the first batch? Was more tile needed because of product loss due to the erroneously installed tile, which could not be reused as originally intended?

    Or does he just not like the tile itself, shaded as it is intended to be by design? If that's the case, the only beef I can see he has with you is if the tile man installed one box at a time instead of mixing up several boxes for a good overall blend of the variations. In that case, we'd need to see pictures to have an opinion on whether he is being overly picky or unrealistic with the install.

    This post was edited by snookums2 on Fri, Oct 17, 14 at 18:24

  • gregmills_gw
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I would say the installer should have inspected the tile for shade difference before he set them in. Now if the customer is being nit picky about a little difference that's clearly stated on the product then the customer is at fault.

    Its a pain, it sucks you have to deal with this. but since you didn't supply product and only installed the product the customer purchased. I don't think there is any reason why you shouldn't be paid, given the tile was installed correctly. but im a hardwood guy so take that into consideration.

  • eaga
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I think you're entitled to full payment, but I don't think that being in the right is going to be enough for you to get all your money. The customer hasn't been dealing with you in good faith, waiting until more than two weeks have passed to tell you that he or she won't pay due to the tile color difference. A reasonable person would have let you know right away, or at least when you called the first time to get your payment. LWO is right, you need to get all the details in writing, signed by the customer, before starting a job. If the customer is supplying the product without any assistance or input from you, your contract needs to say that you're not responsible for quality, color variations, quantity, etc.

  • hoovb zone 9 sunset 23
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    no written contract?

  • tibbrix
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    snookums, I disagree. Had the customer gone through the same outfit for buying the tile and installing the tile, then there might be an argument to be made that the seller/ installer should check the tile with the customer before installing it.

    However, this customer had already bought the tile before installing it, which includes being responsible for getting the correct amount needed, and he went out on his own to find a different installer. That installer has every right to assume that the customer is happy with the tile he's got which is why he's ready to have it installed.

    I have a feeling that, if this installer were to talk to friends and other contractors of this person's, he'd get an earful about how this person pulls this kind of thing all the time to get out of paying for stuff.

    Again, we've only heard one side, so we could be missing lot of info, but based on what we have been told, the installer should be paid.

  • Vertise
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Tibbrix, I don't know what you are disagreeing with me about.

    The issue is shading. We don't know what the complaint about that is though. It could be an installation issue, not a product issue. One, with the blending of variable material, meaning it was not blended; or two, a problem with the coloring of the second batch purchased to fix an installation error.

    Just as with wood flooring, one should blend the tile, and not install the material one box at a time. Due to variations of product, several boxes at a time should be used to work with so the variations are blended across the floor rather than a particular 'shade' or other variance being concentrated in any one area.

    If the customer simply does not like the tile they purchased, of course that is their problem - unless the store misrepresents it - then that is someone else's problem. If the customer simply does not like their tile, I don't see why the OP would need to come here to ask anyone else whose fault that was.

    Any installer should prep appropriately for their trade, check the material for accurate quantity and defects, define layout, and otherwise be proactive in identifying problems before installing the floor, regardless of where the materials were sourced. I believe those type things are detailed in TCA guidelines, including inspecting product. They don't care where the tile was purchased . They care about standards and installation procedures for maintaining quality in their trade. That involves far more than just sticking it to the floor.

    How can you install a floor without planning your work first? A pro should be bringing and applying his experience to any project he undertakes to ensure a good outcome. You don't skip such preparatory steps based on where the material came from.

    If the installer screwed up the border so that more tile is needed, and then did not pay attention to the lot #s, coloring or whatever that came in , as the professional I think he incurs some If not all responsibility there. If the product did not match, the job should have stopped.

    I don't see or agree that an installer somehow becomes free of responsibility just because product was not purchased through them. I am not aware that all tile men even sell tile.

    The layout should have been clearer from the beginning. Verbals are problematic. A mixup of 2 rows of which tile versus inch miscommunications of some sort could have been avoided if more time and care had been spent up front. Unfortunately, people often want to skip these things and just start installing.

    Again, we don't even know exactly what the problem is.

    This post was edited by snookums2 on Sat, Oct 18, 14 at 16:06

  • User
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    CLBflooring,
    File at your local small claims now.
    Sue him.
    I'm serious.
    This guy is conning you, I can clearly see this.
    In the future, consider this a learning lesson, and NEVER
    do a job for a customer and LEAVE without being paid.
    I'm sorry for you, I was in business too, and there are customers out there, well, lets just say they aren't customers.
    You are only responsible for the installation.
    He purchased the product, it has nothing to do with you.
    Sue him now.

  • jellytoast
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Take him to small claims court, file a lien against his property, or consider it experience and a lesson learned. All you did was install material that he supplied, and his complaint seems to be against the material, not the installation. And it was his instructions that caused the shortage. Notice how he had no complaints until payment was requested?

  • Acadiafun
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Like it has been posted you can take the customer to court and you will most likely be granted a lien. The customer then will complain to the BBB and post all about you on sites such as Angie's list. I guess the question is how much do you value your reputation?

    If the customer and you are willing to work out a discounted payment with an agreement not to discuss the floor to anyone in the future that sounds like an option. The customer may actually be happy with this resolution.

    A picture is worth a thousand words and likely that customer will be posting pictures of your work if they are not satisfied with the resolution. If you are okay with this and your business will not suffer then I say you can sue the customer for payment as another option.

    This post was edited by Acadiafun on Sat, Oct 18, 14 at 12:50

  • pprioroh
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    contractor faults:

    ?? written contract?
    Job shouldn't have been started without adequate materials.
    making it CLEAR that since homeowner supplying materials that material quality (lowes special) is on the homeowner

    homeowner faults:

    Bought the materials that were not up to her expectations
    Hired someone for labor, and expecting them to warranty the material, when there was no markup on materials.

    On balance, I think the contractor failed in doing a professional job by not educating the consumer on the scope of responsibility (and that education should be codified in the WRITTEN CONTRACT that specifies materials are being installed AS IS per the homeowner). However the homeowner tried to do things on the cheap and pick and purchase their own tile and skimp and it bit her in the ass, so it's unreasonable to expect the installer to eat that cost.

    I'd go, explain clearly that it was HER choice to pick and purchase the tile and that SHE did not have enough tile and that variation between lots is common which is why you always buy MORE than you need to avoid this very problem. Job should be paid.

    If she refuses, then it's up to you to decide to take to to court on the principle and eat the bad word of mouth that will occur, or to write off the expense as a lesson learned and make sure you don't do the same thing again. (WRITE IT DOWN, spell it out!)

    Best of luck.

  • Vertise
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    If the customer simply does not like their tile, I don't see why the OP would need to come here to ask anyone else whose fault that was.

    OP, could you please clarify what the shading problem is and why you need to ask others if you are responsible? It makes no sense to me that you or the customer would question who absorbs the problem of not liking the appearance of a tile the customer selected themselves. Which leads me to believe there is more to this story than what has been attempted to be described above.

  • Vertise
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "However the homeowner tried to do things on the cheap and pick and purchase their own tile "

    Since when can't a consumer pick and purchase their own darn tile? And contract with someone for installation? This happens all the time around here as far as I know.

    I wonder if this shading problem could be with the grout repair, not the tile. More communication problems.

  • glennsfc
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Homeowner supplied the material and 'hired' someone to install. The person 'hired' agreed to do it for a certain price. There was no contract.

    1. The homeowner is responsible for supplying acceptable material.
    2. The installer is responsible for installing the supplied material as requested to industry standards.
    3. The homeowner is responsible for final payment. Why? ...because the homeowner supplied the material and the installer did the work that was requested to industry standards (there was no complaint about faulty installation).

    Conclusion? ...sue the customer and sue him now. File the lien, although you may have to wait until he sells the house to collect.

    Judge Judy would love this one!

  • CLBFlooring
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I will clarify some more for those that are confused.
    The customer called my company stating the he "just" purchased tile from Lowe's (not finding out until after he refused payment, he informed us that the tile was purchased 3 months prior to him calling us) and asked if I could install the tile. (I also called the company who manufactured the tile and they informed me that if a customer purchases materials and there is a chance of dye lot changes in a material, it is the responsibility of the store selling the material to the customer to inform them of this possibility even though it is clearly written on the material's box)
    I told him I would send someone out to measure and get an estimate for him. The next day one of my installer went to his house, measured the job and drew up an estimate. At this time, the customer explained to my installer that he wanted a 24" border of 6" tiles with the remaining area filled in with 12" tiles. My installer checked the amount of tile the customer had and explained to him at that time that he did not have enough tile. The customer then went back to Lowe's and purchased more tile. I called the customer the next day to give him a price and we agreed on the price for the purchase of thin-set, the installation of tile/grout and sealer. (The customer purchased the tile, grout & sealer on his own, as per the suggestion of Lowe's) The customer agreed on the price and I sent my installers out the next day to install the tile.
    The room was 19X13 rectangle (sun room off the kitchen facing the back yard). My installer began running the tile along the wall connected to the kitchen to work his way out to the back door. He had installed 4 rows of 6" tiles (24" width (as per the customer's instructions) - (first row cut down to compensate for the 1/4" grout lines) and had 3 rows of 12" tiles installed when the customer informed my installer that the border was too wide.(when installing the tile, tiles were pulled from several boxes at a time to mix up the tiles in case of dye lot changes) At this time my installer informed the customer that since he is changing the size of the border the he would need more 12" tiles to make up the difference. As the customer went to the store, my installer removed tiles and shrunk the border. (he cleaned and reused all the 12" tiles he removed) Once the customer returned, my installer added the boxes to the ones already there and also mix them with other boxes. Then he finished installing that day and did not grout until the next day. Then he came back to grout and seal the next morning. At no time from the day of installation or the next day during grouting did the customer say anything about not being satisfied with anything. I waited for about 2 weeks and heard nothing from the customer, so I called him. At this time he told me there were some issues with the grout (tiny small pockets missing). I sent my installers there the next day to fill in the 2 small air pockets of grout the was missing. I then waited another week and had to call the customer again for payment. At that point is when the customer said there were shading/glaze differences in the tiles. I explained to him that was since its a natural tile, it is common and clearly stated on the materials box that this is almost guaranteed to be an issue. I offered to send my installers back to remove some tiles and try and mix them up a little more. At that time he told me that either I would come back and remove the entire flooring and reinstall or he wasn't paying. (Note: there was absolutely nothing wrong with the installation of the tile, grout or sealer. It was all done to code and was all even and uniform but, since about 30% of the tile was installed before he purchased more, you could see some differences in the tiles)

  • Vertise
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Lowes did screw up, as tile stores note lot #s for customer purchases due to variances. Probably most customers don't know manuf issues like that either. That's where pros come in to do their job. Maybe he just made another purchase without their knowledge of a previous batch though.

    Without a picture no one can say, ' it looks bad and your installer should have noticed and stopped the job.' What do you think? Should your employee have noticed or was the difference minimal and not obvious?

    I think things like this happen when laborers are left to handle things when someone more knowledgeable needs to oversee the work and keep informed of progress and events. They will just blindly do the labor, whatever they are told, without thinking too much or seeing the big picture, versus a seasoned "tile pro" who knows the ins and outs, to check material first and has his eye on the whole.

    I would tell the customer to complain to lowes they sold him the wrong lot # - possibly the wrong amount. Maybe they can hunt some down. I doubt they will cover labor though. And he might not have mentioned it was for an In-process install run short.

    If it looks bad, I would replace the offending tiles with the correct lot because i should have been paying attention, but that's me. Maybe try a discount if it is noticeable but liveable. Ripping out the floor is his problem. He and lowes can work that out since one of them ordered wrong to begin with. If it's obviously wrong and looks patched or something though, why do you have no responsibility for paying attention to the workmanship?

    It's certainly not all your fault but a tough problem to fix now.

    You did say natural material. That can vary a lot. Do they work in lot #s with a material like that? Fired runs can vary wildly too, however, not even looking like the same tile.

    I would ask the tile pros over on john bridge forum. I have listened to many discussions there and inspecting material prior to installing is part of the job and good workmanship. I mean, really, why wouldn't it be. Work needs to be planned first and details paid attention to regardless of where the materials came from.

    Do you think it looks alright? Is the furniture back in the room yet? That will cover a multitude of sins. Slight variances might not matter a bit once the room is back together. And look good, as a natural material.

  • PRO
    Joseph Corlett, LLC
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    This customer is a crook. I'd let him have it in court.

    I do tile replacements on occasion. I insist that the customers pick out the replacement tile and grout so I don't have to hear about how the stuff I used doesn't match.

  • _sophiewheeler
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Contractors who don't control the source of material for their projects end up getting bitten by clueless homeowners who think that all tile, or all carpet, or all wood is the same, and don't have a clue as to the extra labor needed with seconds, or the ultimate problems with wear down the road. YOU know all materials are NOT equal, and that's part of what a pro should communicate to any potential customer----as they decline the install only job. Which is what should have happened here. You should have declined the job as being too risky to your reputation.

    But, you undertook the job just the same. And without a written contract. Which should have been amended, and noted that the tile was from two different batches, with the customer's signature right there acknowledging that.

    I agree with Treb that the customers were probably scammers. BUT, your business practices left you wide open for this. (Not insisting on being paid in clear draws that coincided with completion steps, really?) It will cost you more to sue them for payment than it will to have a lawyer draw you up a simple contract that you use from here on out. WITH a separate page for you to document every change in scope and price to the original agreement. And, in writing, insisting on a down payment at contract signing, another at 3/4, and the final at job completion.

    No lesson like a hard one. No matter how you deal with the scammer, learn the actual lesson being taught here. You and your future customers have the chance to benefit from a written agreement.

  • jellytoast
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Agree with Tre that the customer is a crook and behaving despicably. Small claims court is inconvenient, but inexpensive. And lien laws exist for a reason.

    Agree with snookums that it is a common practice for homeowners to select the materials for a tile contractor to install.

    Since when is installing tile from Lowe's "risky to [a contractors] reputation"?

  • pprioroh
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "Since when can't a consumer pick and purchase their own darn tile? And contract with someone for installation? This happens all the time around here as far as I know."

    A customer certainly can do so, but then said customer can't go back to the contractor and expect to complain when the tile SHE PURCHASED doesn't match!!

    Part of the cost of overhead is materials management - if something like this happens and the contractor is supplying materials then the contractor has to eat that cost. That is expensive so contractors mark up materials to cover these costs.

    By desiring to cut out that cost, and save the money, the homeowner "self-insured" against this contingency. Guess what, she screwed it up and so now SHE has to pay the cost.

    You can't have it both ways!!!

  • geoffrey_b
    9 years ago

    @CBL Flooring: I'm a software developer. The first thing I learned in business was a good contract.

    #1. You let the customer 'run the show'. He comes to you with a half-a**ed project, with cheap tile, and insufficient quantity.

    #2. You needed to get in writing / drawing the exact spec of what the customer wanted.

    #3. You should have never let the customer start changing the specs / design - without a change order - and additional charges for figuring out if it would be a quality job.

    #4. All these changes 'threw you off balance".

    #5. I think you are responsible for not detecting the variances in dye lots. It's really the installers responsibility.

    In my industry, when customers try to add more features - we call it 'creeping elegance'.

  • jellytoast
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    To those of you who think the installer is at fault, where is the customer's share of the responsibility in this? Apparently, the contractor should have done this, this, and this, but since he didn't, the customer is entitled by default to a free installation of tile that they themselves chose and purchased? If the customer had a problem, they should have addressed it at the time of installation.

  • Vertise
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I agree with GB. Customers are laypeople. It is safe to assume they will show up with ill-conceived, half-a $$ed projects or ideas. They hire a pro for the expertise they will bring to the job. Lots are a fundamental aspect to any tile installation, you can't just skip that step because tile size can also vary between batches. I suppose that would be this particular "Lowes" tile's fault too. Well, it's not.

    They did not assess and plan the work, or attend to details when a problem occurred.

    It isn't that the tile was cheap. Or that the customer decided they did not like the tile they selected. There were oversights during installation, resulting in a less than professional outcome. The customer did address the problem they saw at the time - the border. Something like shading is not necessarily apparent until after grouting (per a JB thread).

    There must have been about 27 boxes of tile. So because it was purchased elsewhere, the customer is somehow supposed to open and check all these cartons for chips, warpage and other defects too? Have them calibrated and ready to go for the "install" person? Then the "installer" just sticks them to the floor? That is an extremely simplified idea of a tile installation project.

    I have to wonder if floor prep was skipped too, since the customer was only hiring for what is a very narrow definition of installation per the majority of opinions on this thread, including the OP. Once you start putting that expensive floor down, however, you have taken ownership that it is a sound foundation. Just as they should be paying attention to the tiles they sre installing as a part of good workmanship.

    I would start by looking for more tiles from the lot to replace them.

  • Vertise
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    What I was in the middle of writing, on this installation dilemma ...

    Without seeing a picture of the workmanship, I see no reason to be calling this customer a crook. It is purely speculative that he has nothing to be complaining about.

    Understanding and paying attention to lots is all part and parcel of working in the tile industry, of installing tile and is an essential component to providing a professional looking installation. You can't separate, decouple, lots from installation. They are inherently intertwined.

    The store should have paid attention if they knew it was an existing project. They are the first line of defense to ensure this doesn't happen. But it certainly doesn't stop there. The contractor should also verify all material for the job before undertaking such an expensive and permanent project.

    Installers also need to check the lot numbers to be sure the tiles are calibrated the same - because size, as well as color, can differ. Those size differences can wreak havoc on the physical aspect of installation, so this step can't be dismissed or skipped so easily as unnecessary.

    They should also be checking each tile for manufacturing defects during install, as well as blending color variances. So checking tiles and coloring is a part of the "install" process, regardless of "lots".

    And, you are supposed to work from the same lot. That's why they label them! It's fundamental to installing tile, plain and simple. Why wouldn't an installer check this?

    That the boxes indicate to expect color variances is only a statement of the product's general style - variegated. Differences in runs is another thing - or they wouldn't bother to number them. They do track and number them because it's important. Different batches can literally look like a completely different tile, and sizing is involved.

    Of course, the customer should be advised of a color difference, for their approval and sign off. Their house, their money. Not authorizing a "defect of project" like this is irresponsible.

    This floor might very well look fine with minimal difference and the customer too picky or even dishonest. But how would anyone know from here? Finishing the job does give the floor a new look and apparently problems like this become more obvious after grouting. So I don't think a delay in his complaint indicates anything sneaky or complex or sinister. He might not have been sure how to handle it or have even tried to live with it.

    I think the OP sounds like a good respectable guy or he wouldn't be asking but we only have one side here.

    I wanna see pictures.

  • millworkman
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The thing that has been bothering me the most since I first read the OP's story is why a professional flooring company owner would be asking on a free forum for advice about whether or not the customer should pay him or who is at fault? There HAS to be something somewhere that is not being told in my opinion......

  • geoffrey_b
    9 years ago

    I judge the customer not to be honest because he did not notify the flooring company of the problems - rather he waited for them to request payment - this happened twice.

    Then refusing to pay anything - that's the sign of a crook - IMO.

  • Acadiafun
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I guess the question is who is right? But the question should be "How will this job impact my future business?" for the OP. The answer lies not in the court system but in the court of public opinion. No matter who is right, as I said before a picture speaks a thousand words. If the floor looks bad I cannot think of anyone I know who would employ the OP to do a floor for them. Sorry, but that is the way it is. Once the unsatisfied customer starts posting pics of their floor opinions will be made for bad or good. THAT is what the OP should be concerned or unconcerned about. If the floor looks good then he is good. If not then his business will likely take a big hit. So the OP needs to decide to stand by his work or do damage control.

  • jellytoast
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "The thing that has been bothering me the most since I first read the OP's story is why a professional flooring company owner would be asking on a free forum for advice about whether or not the customer should pay him or who is at fault? There HAS to be something somewhere that is not being told in my opinion..."

    Maybe he just wanted the opinions from a variety of other Homeowners and Professionals ... just to get a general consensus as to whether or not we would think that he was owed the money. I don't think he was asking because he was going to make a call one way or the other based on our opinions, but was just asking to see whether the majority would side with him or against him. Also, I got the impression that this is not the kind of business arrangement that he normally does, with the customer supplying the tile, so he was out of his element. I don't think there is anything unusual, abnormal, or hidden in his request for other opinions.

  • sholt576
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I agree with those who say he's conning you and he's a crook.