here is a picture showing low grout.

Another picture showing lippage

Hi, StoneTech,

You really hit the nail on the head. There was no any special material or labor applied to flat the concrete subfloor. He just did a quick prep work to smooth the surface and sealed a large crack. He used regular thinset as if laying regular tiles. This is his first job handling such large rectified tiles. To make matter worse, the grout was set kind low.

Do you have suggestions about how I should go about for this project. Should I require him to fix low grout and lippage? How can those problems be fixed? Now the thinset and grout are all dried. I guest any fix requires scraping existing tiles and relaying with new planks. It will be very costly.

To make matter worse, I found out that there are 25 tiles making hollow sound when finger tapped. I could feel vibration from the tiles when tapping. The installer said they are caused by holes in mortar and is normal and will not cause tiles to crack. After talking to him, he is going to replace about 8 really bad loose tiles and pay for the cost of new tiles, but leaving the rest of 17 tiles as it is because he said those 17 tiles ware acceptable. What is your thoughts on that? Should I require him to replace all 25 tiles?

Thanks!

Monkeyta

Sounds like a 100% complete redo to me, on his dime of course. As you read what Stone says he did nothing correctly and changing several tiles will not change the lack of proper prep and application. Not that it helps now but did you discuss with several tile setters whether your floor is even a good candidate for this type of tile or did you pick it and tell him to install it?

This post was edited by millworkman on Sat, Oct 4, 14 at 7:05

A properly bonded tile should not sound hollow. Tap around with the end of a screwdriver...it should sound like you're tapping on concrete. Specifically, hollow sounds at the tips of the tiles are a prime area for cracking. Yours sound hollow because of incomplete bonding, possibly due to trying to span low spots with a long tile. Again, without a medium-bed morter, the thinset "slumps" there, creating a void. There should be at least 80% (or more) complete coverage. It's obvious you don't have that.

Lippage? Again, it's because the tiles were sinking in some areas and not others.

Additionally, these problems could well be caused because the installer finally realized that he needed to mix the thinset thicker in an effort to hold up the tiles, and in doing so, he lost the fluidity necessary for the morter to properly stick to the tiles and/or the slab. A "Catch22" situation, and no way to win it.

As to his comment about "Holes in the morter," that was pretty creative....but makes absolutely NO sense. Morter doesn't HAVE "holes" in it...unless perhaps he mixed it too thick or it began to dry out before getting the tile on it.

IMHO, it's a re-do. The good news is that it's only 25 feet and, if he gets on it quickly, the tiles and morter should come up pretty easily as it's new.

My opinion would be, if you haven't paid for it...don't. By law, you need to give him the opportunity to make it right, although I wouldn't want this guy doing it at all.

When you get to John Bridge Forums, you could always put in your geographical area and see if there is a Pro in your area..... Best of luck to you, Monkeyta.

To millworkman: I picked out the large 8x48 tile from tile store because it looked good. I did not realize any special techniques needed to install such tile. I knew my tile guy had not installed any think like this before. I did not discuss much with him. I told him to lay tile with 30% random and 1/8 grout line, according to manufacture's guideline. That was it. Not discuss about prep floor flat or use proper mortar. So he and I went into this job, thinking it was a just a normal tile job. Too bad. Bit late to find out now.

to StoneTech: I have 25 tiles that make hollow sound. Each tile is 8x48. So we are talking about 65 sqt. So far, I have not paid him for labor. But I have already paid for all the tiles, which is $5000. I agree with you. I really don't want him to redo the work. It is better to hire another tile installer. This is what I am looking at:

1 - replace 20 out of 25 hollow sound making tiles.
2 - replace 6 tiles due to unacceptable lippage
3 - Remove grout to at least 2/3 depth, and regrout. 30-50% of all grout lines. The other 50% of the grout lines are ok and acceptable.
Let me know if you have any comments

Thank you very much for your help!!!

Monkeyta

Monkeyta~While that might work, my concern would be his, or any other installers' capability of getting a decent "match" with the tiles left in place. If they use a medium bed morter, for example, the replaced tiles just might end up being higher than before...particularly if they were set on a high area of the slab...so that's a no-go.

The only possible scenario I could envision would be to remove the offending tiles and re-set them with something like Versabond (from Home Depot) which is a lightly modified morter and would not hold them "up" like a "medium bed" morter would. (which is what should have been used for the entire floor) But, that is just part of the "plan."

I would use a leveling system such as TLS or MLT to "tweak" the installation to (hopefully) an acceptable level of acceptance. Understand that, to do this, they would have to dig out little one inch or so spaces under the "set" tiles so that the little "foot" that goes under the tiles can be inserted. A good installer will be familiar with these systems....yours? I dunno.

A search in the Professional's Forum at John Bridge discusses TLS and MLT in detail.

Hope this helps...

It is his job to know how to install various tile formats and site conditions, not yours. He is fully responsible for his work.

If you paid by credit card you might have some recourse to get your money back by filing a dispute.

This post was edited by snookums2 on Sun, Oct 5, 14 at 16:18

monkeyta123 Do you have pics with the new install? I have the same issue and I am wondering if it is defective tiles or what? Seems like the installers did everything they were supposed to. 33% overlap, blah blah blah... Very unhappy at this point.

No they didn't do everything they should have. They proceeded to install the tile even though the lippage was a problem instead of stopping the job and notifying you. Inspecting the tile for warpage and defects is part of prep and their job. They are not supposed to simply slap it down as fast as they can.

They are still responsible for their work.

I had this issue and after discussion with GC and tile co., it was all ripped up and reinstalled. If you are uncomfortable now, just wait a few months until buyers remorse hits. Also, if you were to sell the house, potential buyers would notice. Walk on it barefoot and then ask yourself if you are willing to put up with it forever. If possible, get it done right.

Jerilyn, it's very unlikely it's defective material. This type of tile needs to be installed like marble, so they tell me and I went to the distributer to meet with the manager over this issue. She explained the whole thing to me. She was well aware I changed my mind on another bigger project using the very large planks. Not every tile setter can do marble but since this plank is in style right now, they all are trying to keep up. She said they offer classes to the companies who buy their supplies there but no one comes. They all think they know....sigh.

After going through the process, I can't see where or how, removing a few tiles and reinstalling is an option. But I am not there. There are 4 points where adjoining tiles are going to meet up. If you adjust one, what happens on the adjoining edges. I am not a tile setter. I guess with enough experience they can make magic. This sounds like a quick fix and then what happens in a month or 6 months? Is this work guaranteed?

But if you do this, before you tell anyone its okay, wait until it's dry and you can walk all over it. I saw on TV show they used a hockey puck to slide across the floor. If it's not even, the puck will bounce (lippage). Now, that might just be TV but you need to be double darn sure the job is what you want.

In the end, even with a total rip up and the floor was floated to be sure it was level, I still have a few places where there is a tiny bit of lippage. It's not bad or in the walking path and I can tolerate it. The first install was like walking on very sharp edges and would even catch the sole of my shoe.

When I ordered new window treatments, the woman who came to measure commented on the tile and then told me of her nightmare in a condo. It's all lippage, so much so she has rugs everywhere. It cost her a lot of money and because she didn't know any better, now she has a lot of rugs and a floor that will be a huge issue at resale.

Make your stand, ask questions, go talk to the supplier without dissing anyone. Ask the GC if he would call this acceptable in a different job. I know right now it's about the cost of correcting it and ripping it out and starting over would be awfully hard for him to swallow. Did the GC sub out the tile work because that can get testy? But in the end, it's the GC who needs to work with you, you did hire him, right?

I am sorry you have to go through this and I wish you all the best.

amazon has Tavy Puck used just for this type of install. Also, googled tile lippage and there are pages of what to do, whats acceptable, fixes. everything.

Most manufacturers of large format plank tile also recommend a grout joint size of 3/16" as well as no less than a 33% offset. The wider the grout joint the less apparent minor variances will be. Flatness of a floor is critical for this type of install or you will always get these lippage type problems with large format tiles.

Also some large format tile is better than others. Sometimes when you inspect the tile before it is set you will notice that most tiles like that have a slight warp to them. Usually they are proud in the middle of the tile with the ends dropping slightly.

This only worsens the lippage problem when the floor isn't flat. Also almost impossible to do a nice grout job when the lippage is so pronounced. Probably if you put a 10' straight edge on the floor you will start seeing what is going on and how much out of plane the floor is. So you can deterimine what need to be done to really fix the problem.

Yes Big Rock the installer warned me about the cupping and bowing but I never knew it would be so pronounced. Mine looks exactly like monkeys first photo. I am scared picking another brand of plank tile will just result in the same thing happening again. Kind of at a loss on what to do at this point. The contractor is maybe going to get the tile rep out to look at it. We chose a Mohawk wood look tile. Beautiful coloring just don't know if I can deal with the lippage issues with the plank tiles. Our floors were leved 7 years ago when we had Kardean installed (another horror story) so in theory they should've been good. Installer said they were good as well. They also laid a large format square tile in the bathroom and those look great.

well have the mohawk rep look at it and see what he says. Sorry you are having problems. If the material is good, then my instinct is to thing the floor isnt flat. Put a long straightedge on floor, look for big dips or humps

I have this same problem along with my grout is light in some areas and dark in others. It is that way with my ceramic tile as well as the wood looking tile. What could cause that? I am totally disappointed in the whole job and wish I had gone with the bamboo like I had originally planned on.

It is common for tilers to use too much water when mixing or wiping down the grout. The pigment can get washed out. It is written right on the bag, so doubly frustrating.

There could also be some effluorescence (white chalky look). Scrubbing that with a dilute mix of household vinegar might remove it (before moving on to stronger acid products). Try googling images to see what it looks like.

The type of water used can also have an effect on grout coloring but I forget what happens there.

@monkeyta123, can I use these photos in a store to show the importance of choosing the correct mortar? Please email me at amy@eastbankads.com.