Sorry meant, from reading these posts... I am sick today and the phone rang and I accidentally pressed submit and not preview.

Thanks, I sure wish I could have found this information when I was shopping. To think, I looked at stuff for 2 months before deciding, and this is the trouble I am having. I hope you find a good floor product, and your floors turn out beautiful.

Here is a link that might be useful: Noisy Armstrong Grand Illusions Laminate Flooring

This may be a design flaw, and if it is, Armstrong should admit the error and remove the product from the marketplace. Or, at least, inform prospective consumers to expect this noise.

I have stopped getting help from my installer. I called Armstrong 4 times over the last 10 days, and last week, a guy with the initial of J, told me that even though they switched to lock and fold for the replacement flooring I ordered, after reading it was Armalock in books and on web, it is not a problem, that my subfloor has to be uneven. I told him we have video of all leveling done, and he said doesn't matter. I then asked if it is not a problem, then why was the Grand Illusions approved for replacement, if there is no problem, and he just sat silent. I then asked for my money back, to my installer and he said no, there is not a problem with the product, and even though the book and website describe the install as Armalock, too bad, I am stuck with it. He has never been in my house, seen the videos, or anything. I am done done done....looking at legal action now, and with the amount of responses I am getting from others, we may stand a chance...

I am so sorry. I was hoping you would have a happy ending.

I am in the process of floor shopping again. I have decided that expensive or not, life is too short to live with something that bothers me as much as this noisey floor! EVERYTIME I walk around my home, I cringe!

I plan to get something in writing that states that if the new floor makes noise, it will be replaced immediately. I plan to get some kind of wood/laminate that glues down. I am terrified of starting this whole process over, but hopefully it will be worth it in the end.

Good luck to you. Please keep us posted!

Oh Gosh, I wish you the very best. I have looked at all kinds of things to replace this. One problem, were your doorframes undercut? If so, you will have to find a way to make the new floor the same height as the grand illusions, 12mm, or you will have an awful gap. We do, which they just stuck some caulk in, and it looks awful. I have another inspector coming today, who will report to our insurance company, and we will go from there. Best of luck to you, write back. It looks like we will have to replace with ceramic or porcelain tile to get the right height, as we have 6 doorframes that were undercut...

I find it very enlightening and not so very amusing to discover this site and other sites with all the problems with the Grand Illusions flooring. I am going through my own personal nightmare.

I have had installers out about 4 times now. I have had the SAME indentical issues that have been described here. I have gotten no straight answers, and have been continually lied to about the floors "issues". I have been told they have not experienced this before, and since I have read where MY installers have had issues on these sites....I now know that is a lie.

Can someone please tell me the final outcome of their experience?? I am about to go to the Ky State Atty General. This was a home insurance replacement. I had a nice laminate floor in my entire downstairs that had ZERO issues with noise and movement....so, I KNOW it is the product.

I had a shut off valve in my bathroom malfunction while we were out, and because the water stood on the floor too long it ruined it. My floor is a continuing floor with no division (living room, kitchen, hall, bathroom, pantry, and office.) The floor has no T strips to divide the rooms (it didnt on my previous floor either).

viv857,

Oh my gosh, I am so glad you found this list. My job is also an insurance job, and it has been almost one full year of this nonsense. I am also ready to find some way to start a class action lawsuit. Just yesterday, the latest Armstrong Rep came to my house, to see what is going on. I was less than happy about that, as I consider that akin to letting the fox in the henhouse. The man walked all over my floor, and it snapped everywhere, and he actually stood there and tried to tell me and my husband that he did not hear anything, it was his shoes. So, I made him take his shoes off, and he then took and put his feet side by side and shuffled over my floor, and still said the snapping wasn't a problem. He then took out that huge level thing, and found that my floor is level, everywhere. He then used a moisture meter, and found our moisture levels to be very low. He then dug under the carpet where it meets the laminate, to try to find moisture, then he lifted the register vents out to try to find moisture, then he even insisted on getting under our house, in our crawl space, at which time he then exclaimed we had no moisture, the crawl space was wonderful, the vapor barrier intact, and the crawl space very clean. OMG!!! I am so tired of this. He even watched 3 of the youtube videos, and he still could not grasp the noise issue. What is even more frustrating, is we handed him every printed item we had, that Armstrong sells the Afzelia as Armalock, but when you get it, you see it is lock & fold. NOT WHAT WE WANTED....WE WANT THIS CRAP OUT OF OUR HOUSE. We have an INDEPENDENT INSPECTOR, coming at noon tomorrow. I called our insurance, and asked for them to give me the name of an indepent, I even said I would pay the cost, so, he will be here at noon. Now, you want to know the absolutely mindblowing part?? The installer is my salesperson's relative. As my salesperson was standing there, on my floor yesterday, HE said He did not like how his relative installed our floor, because along the wall, he put in short pieces, less than 4 inches, and in 14 other areas of our job, joint ends are sometimes less that 8 inches apart on side by side boards. This is not how Armstrong says the installation should be, along the walls, beginning boards should be 1/2 the length of the original length boards, and joint ends should be no less than 8 inches apart in side by side boards..... I knew that, and was saving that little bit for the big fight....This is such a joke. I am trying to figure out how a class action suit can be started....I am with you on the frustration, as we had laminate originally, and no problems, until our bathroom flooded. I know laminate should not snap, as the first laminate these people installed, to replace the damaged laminate, did not make noise, and after that laminate was found defective, and replaced with lock and fold grand illusions, the noise started. So 2 previous laminates, no noise, now my 2nd lock and fold laminate, lots of snap crackle pop noise.....hmmmmmmmmm....I don't know if you have seen my YouTube videos, but there are about 14, and they start here,,,,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUiODkZAxjE

Here is a link that might be useful: Armstrong Grand Illusions Laminate noise problems

NO T STRIPS will be an issue. I know it is not causing the issue, but it must be installed to perfection and they will nail you right there. Every manufacturer looks for an out and that's their out. It's a tough world right now. I would give them 10 days for a full refund and insist on a different manufacturer. Then small claims court and they will concede. Do not play games...just send a letter to their legal department.

Viv:
You will get a ton of drama filled info here and your situation is pretty evident that you have a batch of this lock and fold laminate that is making noise. You can write to here or there or call here or there or make 150 you tube videos and none of this stuff gets you any further. This quilter lady enjoys the research and I believe doesent want the issue to end. I just read all of the posts here. You must force Armstrongs hand. You type a nice letter..send one copy certified and one by regular mail to each. Send it to Armstrong and the Retailer who sold it to you. Now you state in the letter, that it is installed properly and the issue in hand with your laminate is the well documented snapping from the lock n Fold system. Short and to the point. You explain that you refuse to allow this to move towards the holidays and you are giving them 10 days from the receipt of the letter to authorize full credit including a labor allowance. You also state because of the evident issues, you no longer want an Armstrong product. They may not respond to the letter. After 10 days, you spend the hundred bucks or so to file a civil complaint against them. Name them both in the complaint. Now they will respond and deal with you and get you fixed up. They will repay you your filing money also. If it makes you feel better, call the retailer and explain to him that you need to name him but it is not a personal thing against that store. They will apply some serious pressure to the Armstrong Distributor. No videos, (maybe one for your own record)..none of this other nonsense. This thing will get corrected. you dont need an attorney general. Its all a waste of time that will boil down to this anyway more than likely. The quilter lady is wasting her time for God's sake and should have been resolved within a week or 2 after the Armalock went in. If you email me, I will even draft you a generic letter. You will have to tell me dates when you bought the stuff and how much you paid. You will also have to find out what a reasonable installation on it is. Yours is not installed right but that wont matter. I did say reasonable. Around here it is 2 bucks a foot cost to install in an existing home. This thing can be put to rest before Thanksgiving if you handle it correctly. Unless you enjoy this stuff and many do like the quilter lady. I can help you get it corrected as I know this industry like no one else and been through it all. I believe in fighting for the consumer when they handle things properly....but some just feed off the issues and they never go away. Let me know or take my advice. Feel free to email me with questions. Good Luck.

Floortech,

Wow, you offer help now, but not when I first had problems. I do not enjoy this, this has been a multi thousand dollar hassle, and if you have the letter that is the magic bullet, please post it for everyone to use, if you enjoy helping. I HAVE sent registered letters to my installer, and to Armstrong. I HAVE stated I no longer want Armstrong in my house, but was told I had to try, "ONE MORE TIME". I have had Armstrong inspectors here, more than once. When Armstrong authorized replacement of the grand illusions, I ordered the Armstrong Afzelia, which is the lower brand line than what I originally had, using information based on Armstrong print, and the web information, stating that it is Armalock, got it installed, and it made the same noise as the Grand Illusions. We then looked at the remaining boxes, and found that it said it is lock and fold, just like the grand illusions. In April 2011, Armstrong stopped making Armstrong Exotics in Armalock, my order was in August. I also filed a complaint, which just made my installer mad, and has given Armstrong a chuckle. Contrary to your belief, the videos are getting plenty of response, to the point of me being asked if my floor gets done to my satisfaction, would I remove them. If you have the magic bullet, share it in a generic pdf, for us all to fill out and use. Oh, and this quilter lady thinks every single one of the people who have contacted me have been taken to the point of frustration and just quit, and appreciate that there is now more information about this problem, and they don't feel like they are alone.
So, Floortech, how about a pdf for that letter, sounds like my problem could have been solved months ago, if you had offered me that letter..........until then, I hope everyone who finds this site, will start posting YouTube videos.

Viv857,

I see that another response was posted to this forum, and I hope you aren't discouraged by it. I have had great response from my YouTube videos, and my flooring salesperson even told me he thought that the videos are what got me approved for replacement of the Grand Illusions, so fast, but we are back in the same sinking boat, since Armalock was discontinued on what we ordered. He was shocked about the discontinuation of the Armalock, and has now learned to double check also. I am hoping we get resolution to this floor problem real soon, as I am so tired of dealing with it. But, do not let it go, they will think you accept what you have and don't care. Keep on them. Also, if you decide to file a lawsuit, you have to have the exact corporate name, according to legal records, you just can't go put "Armstrong Flooring" on a suit, that may be what they are known by, but the company may be registered differently, and then you have wasted your filing fees and time. A lawyer advised me of that, so the other poster on here can chew on that for a bit. Keep in touch, let me know how you are proceeding, and if we can band together with the other contacts I have, that are in the same boat, maybe we can get something accomplished en masse.

Contact me and I will help you and you will get response. Send them the 10 day letter to start the procedure. They'll respond and get you on with your life. Its not a big deal to them..they just will need pushed. Forget about banding together and singing kumbaya....they'll laugh at that...It's your problem...not these handful of others and if you push them, you'll get a full refund and labor .No more no less..I am astounded that the above quilter nightmare is not resolved.If it would have been my store that it was purchased, Armstrong would have r3solved it with it with a full credit and we would be on with life.The last thing I want is a claim hanging over my head for 6 months or better. got better things to do. We hate claims and we just apply pressure to the distributor and it's immediately resolved or we resolve it and deal with the manufacturer behind the scenes. In reality, it's on the retailer to expedite this but I do not know how your purchased it, etc. Sometimes people go through an installer and that becomes brutal..or the internet and just as brutal with a claim like this. If it is a retailer...that's where you must shove. You see with armstrong..if the retailer is with a buying group..like flooring america..armstrong sells them direct and there is no distributor..If the retailer is independant..the retailer goes through a distributor and both the distributor often can get it done for you. Either way...the right letter will shake a tree hard enough that the coconuts or money will come falling out and get your floor replaced with a different manufacturer...no more no less...if the new floor is valued at 80 bucks less..I am going to tell you to forget the 80 bucks, take the new floor and move on....You may not come out 1000 % whole on this, but you'll get a beautiful new floor at no additional costs...No you tube...No drama...just force their hand in a respectful way to deal with you...and they will. All the rest of this garbage is nonsensical. The only tactic we are using here is to give them an ultimatum...to quit yacking about it...and to say this is what I want and what I expect...The floor is faulty and lets get this behind us. They will respond and take care of it. Anything else is just drama filled and will delay your process. Good Luck.

For anyone who has offered to be contacted or who wants to be contacted, you might want to set up your Member Page email link so that you can easily be reached. Just go to the bottom of any page and click on the Member Pages link in the green banner and then follow the links.

I now know for sure that I will not be choosing any laminate for new flooring in my home.

There are very few issues with laminate flooring overall. The number one issue is that it is not water friendly. You must damp mop it to clean it and you should clean up any spills immediately. It is not bulletproof and the issues being read here just do not happen normally and is surely a huge negative on Armstrong's resume. I just took on Armstrong's Luxe and Vinyl line and have done extremely well with it the first two weeks. I was going to take on the high end laminate line display which would have included Grand illusion. I informed Armstrong that I did not because of the issues reported here. It is a good product and I recently specified an entire Hospital operating Theater using Armstrong products. I am appalled at what I read here regarding the laminate, but rest assured if handled properly through the retailer or Distributor or Armstrong Direct, It ill be dealt with and remedied swiftly and expeditiously. I have seen this company function and they stand behind what they sell. So if there is a prolonged legitimate Armstrong problem, it is just not being handled correctly by the retailer! Claims can be settled quickly under normal conditions if the retailer is of quality. I have authorized many claims in the past when the manufacturer was denying the claim. It is the retailer's job to make a determination when the manufacturer is not making a reasonable decision. The retailer can fight it out with the manufacturer behind the scenes and have the customer satisfied. This is more of a reflection on the retailer who sold it as much if not more than the manufacturer. Retailers pay good money for the actual product displays....and the manufacturer has an obligation to make that retailer look credible to the products that they display. Our two Armstrong displays just costed us 1500 dollars and I would not allow that manufacturer to make us look bad by not resolving a claim. Just my honest 2 cents on the matter.

floortech,

I agree with you totally about the retailer...........it would be great if the retailer has your back.....

Floortech, I have done as you described. Shortly after my install was complete, I called out the retailer to examine and experience the creaking and popping. They blamed the subfloor. There may be some places where the subfloor is causing the problem, but I have a whole house full of this stuff and you can't take ONE step without it creaking! The retailer refused to help me and said I had to deal directly with Armstrong. I wrote a letter and sent it to them both. Each of them said the other one had to help me, there was nothing they could do. I've filled out complaints on their website, they just tell me the warranty doesn't cover creaking and popping. I've been terribly disappointed in their product and the way they've handled my complaint. I've been miserable living with this noisey floor. I've tried to handle things professionally. Bottom line is, they do not stand behind their product or care about their customers.

vthornberry,

I feel your pain. I also have done just about everything except build a fire on the lawn of my salesperson's showroom floor with this stuff, and calling out the TV cameras. I called the local TV, and they said they would do a story, and with the number of people who have contacted me, it was also suggested a class action would get attention. I, like you, just want my floor fixed, and for Armstrong to admit, after years of complaints of this floor, that there is a problem. The local TV told me to suggest to everyone who contacts me, to start thier own YouTube account, and post videos, and once there are enough to garner a lot of attention, we won't have to handle this in court. It's up to you, but I say, post videos, link to others, like mine, and maybe that will open thier eyes.....

Let me know if you post, so I can link to yours. Just make sure your videos are of your own voice, no music, no names of people, no people who don't know they are being recorded, and are your own work.

If you lived close to me I would have it resolved in a matter of days. You should spend the 100 bucks, get an independent flooring inspection to get in writing what the issue is. If the inspector states it is the floor that is cracking and this is not a normal characteristic of laminate, you give them the ten days to rectify it and take the report with you to small claims court. You will be able to ask for the product cost, reasonable tear out, and new labor to install, and the inspection report. You will not get money for your grief. If you take my advice, you will be able to post here withing the next 8 weeks maximum that you have a new floor install and is not making any noise and you are happy. You must follow the advise that i am giving you as it is the appropriate and only action to take. For the retailer to say you must deal with Armstrong direct is ludicrous. Did you hire your own installer? Did you just buy the product and have your own installer out the floor in? What part of the country are you from? This, I believe is an easy one to resolve and get your money back!

Floortech,

We will all see real soon what an independent inspector has to say, as we did just that, had an independent inspector in, he was the one that was here this past Thursday. I am just waiting now for the report. I guess if he does not find anything "wrong", that would solve this whole situation, then, I am having a ripping out party, and I will be ripping out the first board myself. 11 long months is too long. I have already talked to a very reputable local dealer, he knows all the issues, and thankfully, I haven't scared him to death with this problem. He has seen all the videos, and he is still willing to take us on. So, in a few days, I will be able to report what in INDEPENDENT inspector says. And, please, $100.00 did not even come close.....so, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday,,,,,5 days down just a few more to go.....and I am not holding my breath, just keeping my fingers crossed......and of course, I will let everyone know as soon as I know, either way.....

Yes a hundred bucks is a light figure...as that is closer to what manufacturers pay...I was wrong stating that. Now if this guy states there is not a problem, then I do not know what to say. A problem that evident is just that. I am very anxious to know what an independent inspector says. The only thing I am concerned about is that it should be qualified with him that he does not do inspections for Armstrong. Meaning that he is not on their list of an inspector that they call regularly. A hired gun so to speak. I say this because he will not want to poop where he eats. If he does a lot of inspections for Armstrong, the effort could be fruitless depending on what type of character he is. If he is of character, he will report the facts and that will be the evidence needed to win this battle. Yes 11 months is way too long to be dealing with this. Trust me, if you were my customer...it would have been resolved about 1 week after the 2nd batch went in! You will prevail I do believe. Keep us posted. Good luck.

PS... I have a meeting with Armstrong tomorrow at 11 am.I am going to bring this ordeal up to them and will report the response. Up until now, they have not admitted this popping problem to me. Tomorrow they will admit it and I will ask what should be done!

Floortech,

You must have been reading my mind....this inspection is the first ever that the inspector has done on an Armstrong floor....I asked. He said Armstrong is very proprietary, and wanted only Armstrong certified inspectors to ever look at their floors, which to me is beyond belief. Fox in Henhouse? He is taking a bit longer because he has to get on the Armstrong site, look at all their specifications, look at installation instructions, and more. He took copies of all the materials I kept from the flooring and underlayment, he took copies of the book, and the website, and picture I had of the sample board, with all the info. He took one of the box ends we kept, and more. So yes, he is so independent, he has never inspected an Armstrong floor.... Let me know what your meeting results are if you don't mind... I would appreciate it.

Floortech,

I just thought of something else, the so called elephant in the room.
We ordered this last floor, based on all the printed, and web information available from Armstrong, stating is was ARMALOCK, not lock and fold. We did not want another lock and fold product, and thought we had done every bit of research we could, to prevent that happening....then, we get the floor, it is installed, and find out after installation, that on the box ends it is lock and fold, which we did not want. I stated in the email to my installer that I wanted it verified that it was ARMALOCK, and he admitted to my husband that if he had made a phone call, we would not be in this position. Also, when the Grand Illusions was installed, and we demanded it be removed, and samples were shipped to Armstrong, and Armstrong approved replacement of that lock and fold, why not now??? If a company changes a product, why not state that on the web site at least? How can a consumer be assured they are getting what they ordered if the product was changed, with no notice. How can Armstrong be dragging thier feet, when I specifically said no lock and fold...????? Just more to ask I guess.

Well the Lock n Fold thing does not surprise me. I am absolutely astounded at times on how the manufacturer websites lag to what the latest product information and specs are. Shaw is notorious for it and I just cant get over it at times. Billion dollar companies and cant get their marketing and products to be on the same page after a change. As far as your situation...it was stated that the issues with the Lock n Fold were confined to the Clarion, PA plant and they no longer produce it there. The rep also states he has not had one single issue of noise. He stated that the inside skinny states that it prevails when the substrate is not level. I indicated that on your floor it is everywhere. I also state that with all other laminates that I am aware of that movement does not equal a popping sound. He is surprised that it is not resolved.His statement was that the retailer should be pounding their fist on the table if this is a legitimate claim. That's what gets Armstrong's attention as they need the retailers to like their products and keep the products hassle free. I do believe it is a real problem but I also believe it is not all that common as this guy is not a BS er. He would tell me if he had major issues with it. He wasnt able to wrap his mind around the Armalock system ordeal. He kept thinking that I was saying that you stated you had a choice in the locking system and I was trying to get it through to him that the catalog said Armalock and you got Lock and fold. he kept disagreeing with my statements not understanding what actually happened. He did state that their is only one non lock and fold Armstrong product left and it is a cheapie as he put it. This inspector of yours shouldnt need to read much about specs. he must determine what he hears if it is abnormal or not. A floor should not pop on every step. he should be looking to see if there is appropriate relief around the perimeter....and I suppose levelness (although I do not feel that should make that kind of noise). The other thing I would look at if I was an inspector is what type of under cushion was used. I dont feel this would have anything to do with the problem but that would be in my report. If those three things are all done proper and meets specifications, then he should declare the floor faulty. You may need to threaten small claims to the dealer and Armstrong if the report comes back stating faulty product. One thing is certain, if he does not declare it a faulty product, he will have to state what the reason is and that will be interesting. I believe he will state a faulty product. Good Luck and please keep posting. You will prevail. Flooring companies are so negatively affected by this economy that they are turning about everything down as far as claims. I have two claims in right now myself on a hickory laminate from a bad pallet. I am replacing one tomorrow and I have not even filed a claim to the manufacturer yet other than let my Rep know that they will be repaying me the labor and entire cost of the faulty pallet. There was an ever so slight bow in the laminate..just enough that that you had to about sledgehammer the stuff together. Well by applying so much pressure it disturbed the locking system. it took us three times at three different locations to finally realize it is a laminate problem. All three are being replaced on my orders and I will collect from the manufacturer. Your retailer should be doing the same. It's a stinkin crime what you are going through! Good Luck.

It does need to be inspected by an independent certified inspector.

If someone is doing $100 inspections...
No wonder I follow up the manufacturer's hired guns all the time.

A good well recognized investigator will run you from $250-$1000, depending who he or she is, and what his or her credentials are.

If there were no movement, there would be no noise.

Something is causing movement and edge rub.

I have some news....
wait for it.....

you will be shocked.....

The Armstrong inspector did not find anything wrong....

SHOCKED???????

I have been very busy since my last post, and now I am mad.

My installer did not let us know the inspection report was in, but they sure let our insurance know, and demanded money. I wrote an email to my installer, and asked for the report information, and I will copy and paste his exact quote, right here....wait for it..his reply is in the quotes below....

"It stated that he found no fault in the product or the installation. Moisture levels, crawl space, expansion, and humidity levels were good.

In addition, I was informed by Armsrong that Armalock is actually a locking "system" , which is angle to angle, or lock and fold, both are considered Armalock. One is easier to install than the other, and neither will warranty against noise. So in stating on the website that natures gallery was Armalock is a correct statement. I don't know yet about how Armstrong will respond to the claim of misrepresentation that was filed. I will let you know as soon as I do."

I have had it!!!!!!! Armalock was trademarked by Armstrong on March 14, 2008. The trademark application was submitted on November 12, 2002. The trademark number is REGISTRATION NO: 2649453 SERIAL NO: 78/066875

Armstrong is part of a larger company, see this news blast...

Alloc Wins Patent Dispute
Press Release Beaulieu International Group Wins Again in patent dispute with Pergo.

On February 18, 2010, the United States Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit ruled in favour of Alloc Inc., Berry Wood SAS and Armstrong World Industries in an action for patent infringement that was filed against them back in 2002 by Pergo Inc. and Pergo Europe AB, now owned by Pfleiderer AG (listed on the German stock exchange MDAX). This decision affirms the jury verdict of December 14, 2007 in the United States District Court for the Eastern District of Wisconsin in a civil action where Pergo had accused Alloc, Berry Wood and Armstrong of infringing upon two of Pergo�s patents by selling certain mechanically locking laminate flooring panels Beaulieu International Group contended before the jury that none of the accused products infringed upon the asserted Pergo patents and that the asserted claims of the patents are invalid. After a two week trial in December 2007, the jury found that none of the accused products infringed upon the asserted patent claims and that the asserted patent claims were invalid on multiple grounds. The Court of Appeals has now affirmed the invalidity of the asserted claims of the Pergo patents because they were obvious in light of the prior art. The accused products were manufactured by Alloc, Inc. and Berry Floor NV (Menen, Belgium) and were subsequently sold by Armstrong. Alloc, Inc. , Berry Wood SAS and Berry Floor NV are all members of the Beaulieu International Group. Armstrong is a customer and licensee of the Beaulieu International Group. The products involved in this case were all manufactured under license of Valinge Innovation AB from Sweden. In another case which is pending in the United States District Court for the Eastern District of Wisconsin, the Beaulieu International Group accuses Pergo of patent infringement on several U.S. patents of Valinge Innovation AB. The Beaulieu International Group will claim considerable amounts in damages from Pergo. There is no trial date as yet in this case but Beaulieu International Group expects to go to trial within a year.

LOCK & FOLD is not the same as Armalock, no matter what my installer says... I have an Armalock brochure, and this site has a video of Armalock installation....

http://www.armstrong.com/resflrpac/en-au/Armalock-Installation.html#

This is a link to a video of Lock & Fold installation,
http://webapps.easy2.com/cm2/flash/generic_index.asp?page_id=35756602

If you listen closely on part 2 of the video, it says the boards should be OVERLAPPED!!!!!!!

Armalock was also given the 2002 Popular Mechanics Design & Engineering Award, and from the articles I can read but not print, Armalock is not lock and fold...

In 9 days it will have been a full year since our house was damaged, and I started this process. For you professionals on this board, looking at this, I hope you are all enraged that I have to go through this....and I certainly hope none of you will ever make a customer suffer this treatment....

OH wow, that is odd, we moved to this place, from the Chicago area where Great Western is, as we built a house in Naperville, then moved south....

I have this floor too and yes it squeaks. I only have 200 sq. ft. and its in my basement so I dont really care that much that it makes noise. I've read all this with interest and I feel bad for those who care about a few squeaks in their floor, but here's a news flash - almost all wood or laminate floors squeak for one reason or another unless they are glued to concrete. Anything that "floats" is going to squeak. Here's something else to ponder - all these so called inspectors are in bed with the manufacturer's and all manufacturer's will make up any excuse they can to stall and delay customers. Their people are trained to blow you off. If your pissed just go directly to small claims and by-pass the bogus inspectors. The judge should give you at least half if you have any case at all. Flooring and especially carpet is one of the greatest scams of mankind. Flooring ranks right up there with matresses and cars as some of the biggest rip-off zones for consumers. Why, because we all need these items and manufacturer's make billions off of them every year. There's no way they are giving any of that back for squeaks or crushed fibers and all the other stuff that drives perfectionsits like me crazy. I'm sorry about that. All you are going to do is make yourself sick and cost yourself more time and money. Realize they are all a rip-off and move on. Been there, done that.

Gee, I thought I was ticked off.....

I have had laminate, twice, that did not make a single sound, one was glued, one was not, both on the same floor. It is only now that this stupid lock and fold has been introduced, that the noise problems are becoming a problem. I did not get what I asked for, period. I asked my installer to verify we were not getting lock & fold, but we did. I want it out of my house, period. A "little" noise is OK, but not every dang step you take...if I had never had laminate, I would not know there is a difference. I based my purchase on every single thing the manufacturer has published about the locking system, and did not get what I ordered....period. I think if you highlight and paste the VIDEO links I put in a previous post, you would see the difference.

If you order a blue car, but you get red, when you didn't want red, and you asked your dealer to make sure it was blue, based on every thing you could research about that blue car that was put out by the manufacturer, but it is the same car, just red, would you keep it, if you really wanted blue, not red? Same car, but not what you wanted. I did not want lock and fold.

Capzark makes a few fair statements..but not all. There is much more sincerity with manufacturers and inspectors than what he gives credit to. It is a down time in the flooring industry and manufacturers are declining claims as record levels. I have not seen an approved claim in a couple of years. We do get many claims approved from our applied pressure to a manufacturer after they have been declined. I have about three pallets of a manufacturer flawed laminate getting approved right now and these jobs will be replaced because I will replace them. And PS noise like quilter has shown us is not common and is unacceptable.A good store will replace it and deal with the manufacturer afterwards. And yes Small claims is where this needs to go if the store will not address it with integrity.

Thanks Floortech. It doesn't look good folks....but, my claim is still being reviewed. It was exactly one year ago today that the damage happened in my house, that caused all these problems. I have been dealing with a simple floor repair, for a year.... Are the installers who are reading this, thinking this is too long, or just right, for 4 rooms of flooring...???

We are taking money out of savings, and fixing the floor and doorjambs ourselves. I am going to file a lawsuit.

We did not get what we ordered, according to printed and online materials available for every single consumer in the whole world, looking at a product to order.

How can a consumer protect themselves against ANYTHING?

I have an offer, anyone who wants to order a piece of the laminate from me, I will send it, but,
this is the description available ..

Laminate, 1 board, dark brown, 4 feet long, item number 6a...

Here is what you will get

Laminate, 1 board, light brown about 3 ft 6 inches long, item number 6a......

My reasoning it is different, well, since I printed and posted the original description, I discontinued that shade of the color and length, and this is what you get now.....same number, just shorter, so accept it....it is what you ordered....

Well I'm sure there might be a few "independent" inspectors out there with some integrity, but in a general sense the system is broke. That was my point and yes, I dont mince my words. As Floortech mentions your best bet is a quality retailer. The problem is most are not. They are in business to move product, not to resolve complaints. They will spend the majority of their time on new business, not working with water under the bridge. One more tid-bit of wisdom on lawsuits. If you think the stress is bad now wait until you bring in an attorney. They will eat you alive. You'll spend 10 times more than the floor cost in a heartbeat working through the traditonal legal system and you will not get any of this back even if you win. My advise - Dont do it! Get what you can from small claims, but please no attornies. I may seem bitter, and I am, and I'm saving you from the same heartache. You seem like a nice person who is very frustrated. You don't want to turn into a bitter man like me so heed my warnings and save yourself from further disappointment.

There is no way I will hire a lawyer, I have already seen too much money wasted on this project.

I have successfully taken a case to small claims before, and I am mad at myself for having waited this long to do it again.

I am seeing that there is very little I can do, I am JUST the consumer, who was mislead by all the information put out by the manufacturer.....fair to me, huh?

I have also been contacted by the local TV station again, wanting to know if this has been resolved.

Good call - no attornies. The TV stations are good too. Free, and they usually produce for consumers. As far as being mislead, you're probably correct and probably not by accident either. Big companies have entire departments that wordsmith everything they put out. Most are backed by a battlion of lawyers, but that doesn't mean you can't win in small claims. It's cheaper for them just to pay you than go through that process. Most states need to increase their limits though. It should be more like 20 grand instead of 2 or 3 grand. If they did that a lot of corporate scams would dry up.

BTW - be careful dropping anything on that floor. I've dropped to small metal objects on mine and both times it chipped the surface.

Please understand that I have no way of knowing whether you were mislead and/or getting the run-around here. Only you, or a judge can determine or decide that. I just dont want to see you spend a lot of your time chasing something that isn't there and spending a lot of time and money on things you can avoid. I have no reason to believe the companies and reps involved wont make this right for you. It's just too bad its such a long and frustrating process sometimes. Good luck.

If you were to do it all over again what product (brand) would you go with?

I'm interested to know b/c I'm doing a complete kitchen remodel (new cabinets) including removing the carpet in the dining room (kitchen and dining room are all one continuous room). I will keep the tiles in the kitchen, but I am planning to put either laminate or hardwood floors in the dining room and our "TV" room (also continuous). All three areas are VERY HIGH traffic (imagine a long "L"); thus, it's imperative that the product is durable and scratch resistant (we don't have any pets, but are newlyweds -- first time home-buyers! -- and planning to have kids in a near future).

I was considering Armstrong (maybe b/c of the name), but after reading this entire post (and the other post about WARNINGS), I think I will go with another brand. I'm currently looking at Pergo (or "Traditional Living Premium Laminate") at SamsClub. It's 10mm thick (8mm plank thickness with attached 2mm premium underlayment) and, according to the description, "resists scratches, stains and fading � perfect for kitchens, hallways and family rooms." My dad had installed this in my grandma's kitchen and I never heard any noise or complaints from my grandma or my dad.

I am considering hardwood floors as well, but after doing a bit of researcher I guess I'm leaning towards laminate only due to hardwood requiring more maintenance (vs laminate) and with having kids in the near future, I am hoping to avoid some of the "scratching" issues.

I do hope that you are able to resolve the issues to your satisfaction though. Good luck!

The subfloor is regular plywood and two areas where I would install the flooring is roughly 367sq ft. Given all the reviews, I'm planning to go with something more "matte" vs shiny / glossy (lots of light so I don't want to keep sweeping it all the time) :)

Here is a link that might be useful: Link to the laminate floor on Sams Club site

I am going to get porcelain tile. There is no way I will ever go with another laminate. From my research, I am finding that most manufacturers are going with this lock and fold type installation, to make it simpler for consumers to do the install, where the other type of install was best left to the pro. The ONLY reason I went with Armstrong, is because their warranty does NOT exclude installation in "wet" areas....you better check the warranties on other manufacturers... If I did not have to worry about the sorry state of my 6 door frames now, I would put underlayment down, and sheet vinyl. And no, I would not use the vinyl planks or vinyl tile, I think that leaves way too many seams that may cause problems. I have had everything in this kitchen now, except tile.... Laminate will warp and peak if any water settles in the seams, and that is ugly, it happened when our house flooded.... The bevel edge laminate looks nice, but again, it is a lazy fix in my opinion, because it is made for simpler non pro installation, and you CAN feel every single "Seam" when you are barefoot, feels kind of odd. We WILL have porcelain tile by March, we have already picked it out, and are waiting until I have back surgery in 2 weeks, and heal from that, then we will have the installation of the tile. In my opinion, laminate is no longer the way to go, hardwood will swell and warp if it gets wet enough, it scratches, and the finish, while beautiful, may need to be redone. IF there was some way I could figure out how to waterproof my cabinets, I would pour concrete, put in drains, and just hose my floor down to clean it....I am so sick of flooring issues...

Good luck with your porcelain tile floor and I hope your back surgery went well. Hope ALL goes well. I am STILL fighting my battle. This has left a very bad taste in my mouth, and I will be very harsh with contractors and retailers in the future....so beware to all of you.

I have paid enough insurance throughout my lifetime that if I werent REQUIRED to have paid ....I could have put all that money in an interest bearing account and be a millionaire today!

CarpetOne was nice and agreeable and strung me along for a very long time. They were committed to fixing my floor. They recognized the problems with it, and didnt have any problem saying so. UNTIL....they decided they were done. I suspect based on what my insurance woman said....I am up against some deadline for a statute of limitations or something.

Since they would NEVER give me anything in writing, I began emailing their manager, and I have him in writing acknowledging the PROBLEM with my floor and saying he was COMMITTED to fixing it! I have emailed that to my insurance rep and the Ky State Atty General's office.

I have filed a report with the Ky State Atty General...and say what you might, but I had an insurance company and medical provider attempt to extort $850 from me for a colonoscopy that was CLEARLY covered....they just kept playing rope a dope with me. The State Atty General DID in fact straighten THEM out! I ended up owing ZERO. I am a person of principles. You don't get to screw me easily. And since I don't like being screwed....I like to leave a mark with you so you might not so easily screw others in the future!

I have also contacted an independent inspector, because my insurance company STILL wants to fix or replace the floor (whatever the inspector says needs to be done). CarpetOne wants to wash their hands of this BAD product/installation! They believe they can, so I guess they play this game often. They haven't played with me before though. I do believe they need a STRONG spanking, and if I can help accomodate that spanking....It will give me months of pleasure.

Our state tax dollars pay for the Dept of Consumer Affairs to look into these types of issues....and so I fully intend to keep pressure on for a full investigation of this product, and CarpetOne.

No integrty! None!

All the problems mentioned above with Armstrong Grand Illusions, I just went through.

I had the roasted grain color. It squeaked, popped, and even chipped from such bad popping. When I say chipped, I mean after 3 days there were chips on corners and edges everywhere. I hadn't even moved into the house yet. This was not caused by the installers because I inspected it after it was done.

Called the retailer and Armstrong. Armstrong blamed installation and so retialer (whom did not do the isntall) inspected the work and said it was a great job, I had a level subfloor (new home), dry crawl space and they took the issue up with Armstrong. Additionally, the owner of this retailer told me that he has had a lot of complaints with Armstrong and that his solution was to glue all the butt ends together (partial solution). However, after my claim, he has pulled all Armstrong from his stores and took it upon himself to replace all of my flooring with another company.

On another note, while my brother was shopping for laminate at Home Depot, the flooring sales person there also said that they have a lot of product complaints with Armstrong/Bruce and that she recommended Pergo.

In any case, I chose to go with Lex Flooring's Cottage line. Anyone familiar with them?

The retailer told me they have had zero customer complaints with Lex and after looking at it they have the same handscraped planks as Armstrong does but with ana ctualy locking system that works.

Take action! Please submit an online complaint to the Attorney General. I did in NC & they said there was nothing they would take on because ONLY ME & NO PATTERN. So I am out of luck & 1000s OF DOLLARS!
We had ~20 year old Armstrong flooring which was great, so we went to them again. WHAT A MISTAKE. They now sell JUNK FLOORING. Cracking and popping, MANY dents under our bar stools from sitting on them, even WITH felt! A rep came & told us this was normal. Scratches look like white PLASTIC :/

I was considering the Armstrong Yorkshire Walnut for my home. After reading the posts above, no more!

Wow this prob goes back to 2011 ( at least ) and Armstrong is still trying to swindle the consumer !? I ordered Rustics Prem Roasted grain- 13mm and received 12mm lock and fold. It was obvious to us that it did not look like the heavy duty sample we liked. It chipped and pieces of the edging just fell off in our hands! It does not lock it just lays over so you can see seams popping up slightly. We did not install- took it to sales rep and complained. He acted as if there was nothing wrong with it and maybe just a few damaged or defected pieces he would replace. I held it up to the sample and asked if he thought it looked the same- of course he insisted that it was Roasted Grain. So we left saying I would check the sample order # with the one on the box at home. Well it turns out the # was the same however I found out there are 3 versions of that same # and the dimensions listed on the box stated it was 12mm. So this lock and fold is the real prob and I find it criminal that Armstrong is still trying to get away with fooling the consumer by listing the same # for different products. Has anyone gotten anywhere with a class action law suit? I will be filing BBB complaints and attorney gen

I am so glad I found this forum. I have been dealing with this exact same problem with Armstrong for a year now. They have denied my claim twice, sent their technical reps out here, but they have denied that there is any manufacturer defect with the floor. My installer / retailer says his installation was done properly and he's never seen anything like this, and that it is Armstrong's responsibility to make it right. They are each pointing fingers at the other... meanwhile I'm stuck holding the bag with this horrible floor!.... I would gladly join in any class action suit against Armstrong. I am thinking about getting a certified floor inspector but I hate to spend any more money because I guess am going to have to rip this floor up and replace it at my expense. I have 2200 square feet of it .... almost my whole house. Someone please e-mail me with any suggestions or if there is some kind of suit against Armstrong.

Don't know if there is a class action suit of any kind, but scour the internet, and, if there is, you may get some helpful information.

There are links to youtube videos here but they are private so I'm not able to see them. Is there any way that the videos may be made 'public'? I would really like to watch them as I'm going through the same thing with Armstrong. Thank you.

Floortech and others...

About filing a small claims suit, would someone give me counsel on this situation?

http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/4061412/armstrong-vivero-flooring-issues-with-intergilock-install

Do we get the claim going with the retailer and at that time tell them they have 10 days to resolve or small claims court as the ultimatum?

We are moving in 9/1 with a problem floor and don't even know if the builder should wait to put up baseboards so it isn't a nightmare when the floor is replaced.

Totally frustrated and stressed out.

Thanks

Floortec

We have Armstrong illusion laminate ready to install in my 600 square-foot family room And dining room and foyer. I read previous reviews with lots of trouble of it being too noisy and cracking and popping. I’m committed to the laminate should we glue it down?It is locking laminate planks L3 028–12S And also L3 028–12 the lock and fold laminate planks. I understand they are not interchangeable putting one in the dining room and one in the family room and foyer. Help! Are all the problems I saw earlier from a different product please advise as soon as possible thank you!

Floating laminate is not normally allowed to be glued down. The best way to prevent noise from the laminate is to PREPARE the subfloor. Get that thing FLAT! And then make sure it is FLAT! Pay the $2-$3/sf to get the subfloor in shape and FLAT before you start.

And then make sure you have a decent underlay/pad that is not squeaky (cork or QuietWalk will do it).

Then you check to see your humidity control is as good as it can be. Plenty of the noise from laminate is from "too dry" or "too damp"...or the swings.