|Hello to anyone reading, and thanks. |
I have Hartco Pattern Plus 5000 (not 2000) oak in ginger that I installed in 1997. I do not know if my floor has a urethane top coat and don't know how to determine this.
My floor needs to be reconditioned.
FYI - I have an oreck orbiter low speed buffer if that could be used.
Parts of the floor seem faded, matte, and will soak up and darken if either a water based or oil based liquid spills on them.
Due to the fact that the previous product suggested for upkeep would get gummy from my dogs' drool, I never coated the floor with "Pattern Plus Shine" after the first try and discovering it got gummy. So there are no build-ups on the floor.
Does anybody have knowledge of this product in that year, and what I should have done to it to recondition it?
How can I tell if it has a urethane top coating, or what (re) finishes would be compatible?
Sanding is NOT an option, due to the thin wear layer. Screening may be an option.
Thank you for any assistance. There seems to be a lot of confusion about this product, and what to do, and not much specific information.
Please assume that removing/replacing the floor is NOT an option.
|If you were advised to use pattern plus shine, then it is likely that your floor may not have any kind of surface finish. The 5000 line may have come with or without the permion urethane finish, but I can't say that for sure. You seem to suggest that as well. |
One way to tell if your product is one with the permion finish is to let drops of water sit on various places about the floor (not just the worn areas). Water droplets will bead up on the permion finish, while just the acrylic impregnated flooring will accept moisture and cause the darkening you mention.
Also...floors with the permion finish will look like they are coated with a semigloss finish material, while just the acrylic impregnated ones will look mostly matte throughout.
You definitely want to use a quality waterborne polyurethane finish, regardless of whether or not the floor is bare or has the permion finish. By 'quality' I mean not inexpensive; you usually get what you pay for in this regard.
|(Post removed due to new information learned today.)|
This post was edited by beautybutdebtfree on Tue, May 13, 14 at 19:11
|(Content removed due to new information learned today.)|
This post was edited by beautybutdebtfree on Tue, May 13, 14 at 19:12
|Today I contacted Armstrong again. THIS time, the rep allegedly was able to look up in a historical database, based on information I provided, the conditions of manufacture at that time. I was told that my product would NOT be Permion coated product. |
So now I am under the assumption that I need to refresh a floor that does NOT have a urethane top layer.
This post was edited by beautybutdebtfree on Tue, May 13, 14 at 19:14
|If it does not have the urethane top layer...good news for you! I and many others use two-part waterborne polyurethane finish systems, such as Traffic by Bona, to add serviceability and value to acrylic impregnated flooring. It definitely works. Check with pros on other flooring sites and they will verify what I claim. |
If you choose to DIY this (not impossible)...just use all the preparation products and methods recommended and skip NOTHING...and you ought to have a successful result.
|Thank you again, glennsfc. |
Armstrong told me that the product I need analogous to the old spray tone is now Duraseal neutral liquid wax.
My instinct tells me the floor must FIRST be reconditioned, to put back the oils/resins/color (whatever it needs to get it rich looking again) BEFORE I attempt to have it top coated with a finish coat.
So I'm thinking a three part approach: reconditioning, prep with Bona prep, and then top coat in commercial two part Bona Traffic.
I would at least like to attempt the first step DIY. We are significantly handy in this household, having built half our house ourselves and I did the initial install of the floors (which is why they ain't being replaced, because I KNOW what that solvent-based super super sticky super super strong adhesive troweled underneath my PP5000 is like - you'd half kill yourself getting those boards back up!!).
I am able to isolate the floor surface from adjacent surfaces well (carpets, etc.).
My research has suggested two methods to recondition the floor, before top coat:
1) Duraseal neutral liquid wax, worked in
2) Duraseal 210 mixed with thinner, worked in using red pads.
Do you endorse either of these BEFORE Bona steps? Or are these steps not compatible with later Bona prep and Bona traffic application?
My main concern with the floor is reconditioning the wood, not scratching of the surface. That wear layer basically doesn't scratch much unless it's a GOUGE, which will go through any top coat. My main concern is getting the pale, dry look fixed, not the top shine.
FYI I have a VOC respirator for during application (leftover from my floor install with that powerful adhesive, need new cartridges for it though) and we have a 36 inch whole house attic fan that would be used to disperse VOC upon completion of application of the VOC based stages.
|I know nothing about Duraseal neutral wax, but the 'wax' part of the description concerns me. You could contaminate the floor with wax, if there is any wax in the product. Find out more about that product. Just because someone at Armstrong recommends it is no reason to believe that it is the product to use in your application. Did you tell them that your plan may be to coat the floor with a waterborne polyurethane? |
If you approach this project as a professional would, you should have no problem. You want to remove any contaminants, gently sand or screen to remove any minor damage and scratching, apply Bona Dri-Fast neutral stain to restore color (not entirely necessary, but I have done that), and then coat with Traffic when the stain is completely dry. All you do with the stain is to wipe on and completely wipe off. It will only penetrate and color the wood fibers that are not acrylic impregnated; you want to make sure to remove stain that just sits on top of the plasticized wood fibers.
Coating with something like Traffic is another topic. Suffice it to say in short, that you want to use a flocked sponge applicator, such as made by Shurline, and simply apply coats in as uniform a thickness as you can... No puddles, no dry spots and don't overwork it. Best results are had by those who think of this as wetting the floor uniformly.
Lots of other advice about using this product or an equivalent. You can search the archives here for more information.
|Early Pattern Plus flooring had a sealer and acrylic finish that was sprayed on and buffed. Or you could use the Pattern Plus Shine and strip it periodically. |
Duraseal neutral wax would NOT be a suitable substitute IMO. Duraseal or Bona clear/natural sealer would likely be a better choice. The Hartco spray buff product is probably similar to products that are commonly used on commercial floors like grocery stores and hospitals, like those made by Butchers, Johnson etc.
You mist them on and could buff with your Oreck and probably do a decent job. Regular spray buffing will improve the appearance and durability of the floor.
The big unknown is what you need to do to clean up the floor before applying the sealer. It might need to be lightly sanded or rubbed down with steel wool before sealing.
|Question: can I accomplish the screening using my Oreck orbiter, and if so which color pad?|
|I would not use the approved Hartco maintenance products for a residential setting. Pattern Plus maintained that way look OK for few weeks and then degrade to looking horrible in short order. But do what you think is right for you and that floor. |
You can recondition the floor using the Hartco methods and then resort to a waterborne polyurethane method at a later time, if the reconditioning doesn't give you the results you're after.
|Spray buffing is definitely a pain for the average residential user but if one has a buffer, I think it would be preferable to getting on the polishing and stripping treadmill. |
I wouldn't attempt to apply any urethane finish over the floor without a proper sanding. The risk of it either looking bad or not adhering is too high for me and the remedy for either of these consequences is significant.
The Oreck buffer is fine for cleaning and polishing but I don't think it's powerful or heavy enough for any type of sanding. Of course you can always try a test spot in a place that won't show if it doesn't work.
|My thinking is to do a 3 step process. My objectives in order of priority are: |
1) Create a floor that I can maintain, given that I have large dogs that are gritty dirt mess and sticky drool mess. This suggests a floor surface that can take a water based cleaning solution, such as bona hardwood cleaner.
2) Recondition the floor back to the original "richness" in wood look. I'm not so concerned about the surface look as I would like my wood not to look faded and dried out. The aesthetic in my house is designed to develop patina-ed surfaces with distressing. So a beat up floor is fine, but I would like it not FADED and DRY, and would like it maintainable for grit and stickies.
I think a 3 part approach is my target, using products all from ONE manufacturer: Bona
1 - Bona neutral stain for reconditioning
Then: maintain with Bona Hardwood cleaner
Any problems with this approach?
It's suggested I screen the floor, NOT sand, as the wear layer is dime thick only.
I do not know what color pad to use to "screen" the floor.
This post was edited by beautybutdebtfree on Thu, May 15, 14 at 9:04
Maybe I'm too cautious since I do this for a living, but I feel there's a very high probability that the finish will not stand up to impacts and will peel off in higher traffic areas. What will you do when that happens? Are you prepared to replace the floor?
|I am listening very carefully to what you floor guys have to say, because I KNOW that doing certain things will alter what I can do AFTER that. So I'm being very deliberate to listen and keep asking until I have a solid understanding of the WHYS and then can make the appropriate plan, given my floor product and dogs household. |
I am MOST DEFINITELY NOT prepared to replace the floor. We'd have to crow bar up the slats and replace sub-floor due to the crowbar/jackhammer damage, among other considerations!
So JFCWood, am I understanding that you think with my floor that you think a wax and buff based maintenance is a better choice, rather than a solvent based refresh followed by a water based top coat system?
This floor has confused me since the first washing. Because the protocol Hartco gave was INCOMPATIBLE with dogs. Their "shine" product would get gooey wherever the dogs would drip, so I only used it ONCE and that was way back in 1998. The water-based acrylic "shine" product would turn white, gummy, and attract MORE grit, then dry back into grit spots. ALL water based acrylic coatings (mop n glo, etc.) were ruled out due to the dog drip issue. So I never used another "coating" product, again.
Then, I tried to figure out what in the heck to do to CLEAN it.
So what have we done? Please don't yell. I KNOW it's not right, but had no other knowledge of what to do, because nobody could tell me if my floor had Permion (urethane) coating or not. So we've cleaned it with water based cleaner solution. The floor is fine, but dry.
What's done is done, and the floor is perfectly good structurally. Some areas need reconditioning as they are stripped looking and dry. MOST of the floor looks pretty darned decent.
What I need is a method to refresh the wood, and then maintain this floor IN LIGHT OF the fact that it WILL be subjected to dog drips all the time. I am not worried about scratching. I have constant grit, sticky dog drips, and of course hair on my floors. (The dog drips themselves are sticky regardless of the presence of an acrylic solution.) Just dust mopping does not cut it, nor does "spot" cleaning 900 ft2 of this floor. I need a method to clean this whole floor, regularly.
There is NO raised grain or delamination going on.
I love this floor because the wear layer is HARD and TOUGH, which is why I installed it for my dogs.
|Although I understand the caution, I do this for a living also and have never experienced a problem preparing and coating a Hartco acrylic impregnated floor with the Bona two-part waterbourne polyurethane. Whether or not a DIYer can get acceptable results is a good question. I have seen some atrocious DIY painting jobs...and what could be simpler than prepping and painting a wall? |
I would use the prep to help remove any old sacrificial finishes, such as Pattern Plus Shine or another, and any surface contaminants. Then screening or sanding the cleaned floor will remove minor surface damage. You then completely remove all dust by vacuuming and then tacking with a "water dampened only" clean white towel. Never use resin impregnated tacking cloths. Also, never use steel wool during a preparation when wanting to use a waterbourne polyurethane as a topcoat. Apply your chosen stain and let thoroughly dry (Bona claims 2 hours for their DriFast stain, but it is much better to wait overnight). Keep the dogs off the floor and do not walk on the dried stain with bare feet or dirty shoes...clean socks only if you must walk on the dried stain. The stain is also the sealer, so no need to seal further. The stain will only seal the wood fibers that were not sealed during the acrylic impregnation process at the factory.
Use a maroon pad on your machine. I don't know anything about your machine and I hope it is aggressive enough to get the job done when working with that and the prep solution. If you go the topcoating route, then invest a few bucks and rent a Squarbuff machine if available at Home Depot. The Squarbuff is a vibrating sander with a 12" X 18" platen. HD will also have any pads and sanding media you might want to use. Although the wear and design layer is about the thickness of a dime, you would have a difficult time sanding through that with 100 grit or 120 grit paper. You can also use the machine with a maroon pad and the prep solution to remove any polishes and contaminants (just wipe the machine down well before returning it).
As for the Traffic itself...it is available in three gloss levels. How 'shiny' you want your floor is your choice. Matte will look mostly how Pattern Plus looks straight out of the box, semigloss will impart more sheen, gloss will be the shiniest, but will be the quickest to show minor scratching over time.
Traffic is a two coat process and is expensive. There is no need to load up the floor with Traffic. As I said previously, apply a thin uniform coat. When the first coat is dry, 150 grit or 180 grit paper can be used to knock down any grain raise before applying the second coat. There should be hardly any grain raise, because the acrylic impregnated fibers will not stand up and most of the bare fibers were sealed by the neutral stain.
Read all the package instructions and follow them. Before you attempt this you might give a call to the technical folks at Bona for any advice they might have, other than to hire a professional and don't try doing this yourself. Mix only the amount of product you'll need for each coat. The product cannot be recatalyzed...once mixed it must be applied.
One other caution...do NOT leave stain rags in the house or anywhere near it. The danger of spontaneous combustion is real. Same thing with any sanding dust.
The cleaner you get the floor and the cleaner you keep it while you work and before coating and between coats, the better overall result you will get.
Look for how a Squarbuff is used on youtube and also for other floor coating tips, but be aware...some tips are strange.
|OK, I'm taking in the information. |
Are these the same as "maroon" pads? I've had a box of them in my closet nearly 10 years, waiting to figure out WHAT to work into my floor with them. They are one grit more aggressive than white pads, from what I understand. They are called "red" but I don't see any called "maroon" where I got them.
I already know I cannot use any actual steel wool on my floor, because ultimately this floor will be cleaned with a water based cleaner (not to mention water based dog drool), so that's why I wanted to know the equivalent in these poly pads. They suggested steel wool #3 to work liquids in, so is this pad similar in aggressiveness?
|Hi. I'm most certainly not inclined to yell. |
Were I in your shoes and wanted to end up with a urethane finished floor that could be more easily maintained, here's what I would do.
As I wrote before, maybe I'm being overly cautious. If I bid a job and it doesn't work out, I have to pay my workmen to make it right. That hurts. I also have to protect my reputation and keep an eye on costs. More importantly, I hesitate to do or recommend anything that might trigger a catastrophic event.
|My orbiter weighs 25 lbs and is a low speed (something like 350) rotational unit, unlike the square buff which is 3600 rpm. The reason I bought the orbiter was for maintenance, not refinishing, so you are very fair in your wish for me to go higher power in these steps, I have no problem with that. |
The VERY KEY point of the Oreck is that IT can apply MUCH more force to the floors than MY ARMS can, BUT it is small/light enough that I can schlep it around, anytime, anywhere. I would LOVE to find a way to use THIS machine on my floors, for cleaning/maintenance.
I do not necessarily want a top coat on my floor. What I want is a floor that is compatible with some method to maintain GIVEN the dogs. So a waxed or buff based maintenance is one possibility since I have the oreck. The reason I bought it in the first place is if I can figure out a way to use it I can apply MUCH more cleaning force than just with my unfortunately wimpy arms, toward all those sticky dog spots.
My dogs are 90 lb German Shepherds from police lines. When they go off, they apply TREMENDOUS force on my floor with their nails, unlike a 90 lb lab who trots around, nails clicking. It's not uncommon for my dogs to skid around the corner, tearing toward a window, claws extended into my wood as they spin around the corner. Quite often they are just like a looney tunes cartoon, running in place on the floor with claws extended for traction, trying to get to the door or window, etc. (They are the nightmare of you guys in the wood floor trade, I'm sure.) This floor has taken that sort of abuse since 1998 now and is still quite good looking, so I want to keep it, as it is HARD surface (but with dry spots). The wear surface layer (acrylic impregnated wood layer, that is) has NOT been a disappointment and is iron tough. The floor has been extremely dimensionally stable through at least a couple water immersion events short term. There are no raised grain or raised edges in it anywhere (that would need sanding down, for example), it is perfectly flat as the day it was installed.
But this suggests to me, and your statements suggest, that a TOP COAT may not be the best idea in MY situation. Perhaps I should focus on the embedded resins and look at a buff based maintenance.
The LAST thing I want to do is apply a top coat that then gets all flaky and half scratched off. This is not a statement of y'alls assessment of modern finishes bonding so much a reality based statement of the abuse this floor takes from VERY HARD, very concentrated contact with these German Shepherd toenails. This must be the reason my floor is not really scratched up after all these years, because there is no surface coat to scratch!
FYI I have no issues whatsoever getting or renting the right equipment or persons to do this right. My obsessing is focused on making sure I do the right thing and using the right products (oil vs, water vs. wax based) to my floor, GIVEN my situation with the dogs and maintenance.
Can you please tell me your opinion on this article, see link below:
Here is a link that might be useful: article - the best commercial finish may be no finish at all
|Do you live in a rural or a more urban area? If you're urban or suburban, possibly you could find someone with some spray buffing expertise. This is basically the same technique used on commercial areas with high traffic. If you Google something like "spray buff technique" or "how to spray buff a floor" you'll get a picture of what I'm thinking of which is really how Hartco intended to have original Pattern Plus treated. Absent having a local pro whose brain you could pick (especially applicable if you live in a low density area), there might be Youtube videos to consult. |
People look back at that finish and often forget that when Hartco debuted this product, finish technology was less advanced. Lots of prefinished floor had to be paste waxed and buffed. Anderson had an an acrylic finish with wax over top. Most prefinished floors had bevels.
I imagined that your dogs were probably large (considering the dog drool issue). My only question with spray buffing is whether something in the saliva could react with the polish. Dog urine could affect it since it has ammonia.
I don't think this is available any more but I did find a listing on the web:
|Yes, I live in the boonies. |
Over the years I've tried to identify IF my floor has a Permion coating. I only JUST learned "definitively" no.
(On the Hartco Spray Tone: Armstrong told me that the product I need analogous to the old spray tone is now Duraseal neutral liquid wax.)
Until this, every flooring guy I've talked to (here in the boonies) would have their eyes glaze over when I mentioned the possibility of the Permion, because it makes all the difference how the floor can be restored. Most of them just wanted to sand "off" the "finish" and do the usual, which 1) might very well fatally damage my very thin wear layer and 2) have me end up with a standard floor coating that would be trashed by the dogs.
So I have patiently waited until I feel I have a FULL understanding of my floor before coating it with ANYTHING. It's only seen water based detergent solutions all these years (which in spots has dried out my wood.)
Without a Permion top coat, you can go the solvent based resin and wax refresh direction, maintain by buffing. WITH a Permion (urethane) coating, you dare never touch that floor with wax, is my understanding, because the wax will not bind onto the urethane.
One thought I'm having is just trying a gallon of Duraseal Renovator for refreshing. It would soak into the spots that need it and largely ignore the rest of the floor that doesn't.
This flooring is most of my ground floor: kitchen, pantry, breakfast nook, formal dining room, foyer, front hallway, powder room. Due to this, a method using the orbiter is very appealing, because a LARGER machine will start causing me problems with access under toe kicks, in the smaller spaces such as the pantry under the shelves and powder room around the toilet and pedestal sink, etc.
I'm having to consider many factors in what would be the best maintenance method.
Definitely any method using the Oreck is preferable, because my arms simply aren't good at manually scrubbing all this with some horrible wimpy sponge or wet mop. I cannot get the leverage to CLEAN the floor well using just a mop swish. The orbiter gives me scrubbing power that I otherwise don't have. If it turns out to be BUFFING rather than SCRUBBING but still works, then I'm fine with that, too.
Since I own the Oreck and it's luggable to me, then I can do it whenever needed, in house.
Thank you SO MUCH for helping me think about this. I really appreciate it.
This post was edited by beautybutdebtfree on Fri, May 16, 14 at 11:03
|I think the Armstrong person that told you that is just a little off. The product is now called Dura Finish. It's a mixture of sealer, solvent and wax. |
The correct crossover for Spray Tone would be closer to Duraseal Quick Coat or to Bona Drifast. I can buy both but would prefer the Duraseal for your case.
There's at least two reasons you probably don't want to use the Dura Finish. First, this type of wax isn't water resistant and would spot badly with water. Second, if you did want a buffable carnauba type wax, it would be better to apply one or two coats of DuraSeal Quick Coat to seal, then apply a thin coat of paste wax over it. Also, if your dogs slip on your floor now, they'll have a hard time even standing after using Dura Finish. It will be really slick. Once you apply a soft wax like that, you have to stick with it.
There is another option I just thought of. On stage floors, we have applied multiple coats of Quick Coat and buffed. It will seal the wood and protect it without being slippery but really is intended more as a protective measure where appearance is secondary. Stages can't be slippery and stuff gets dragged across them so traditional wax or poly are not ideal.
I also have to point out that Renovator (which is a great product in the right circumstance) is probably out. Read the instructions where it recommends using steel wool. A medium grade nylon pad might work just as well but I have never tried that.
So are you more confused than when you started?
It's too bad you're not in a more central area. It would be great if you could do the renovation portion, then hire a janitorial person or service who has experience spray buffing in a hospital, office building, grocery store etc.
|Actually, I feel like I'm making progress, even if I'm not at the solution, yet. |
It looks like we want to take wax out of the picture. First, because it will whiten with dog spots. Second, because it will decrease friction. So that is an easy call.
So since you offer a solution using a resin and solvent based sealer, layered, that can be "buffed" to maintain, that is definitely attractive. The reason I picked this floor was I saw it old, beat up, sun damaged, in a WAREHOUSE, years ago. I asked what that product was, because I wanted something that tough. "Rustic," "distressed," and "scuffed" are all FINE with me. If I can fix the "dried out" using a penetrating resin, even if I have to put more on every year or some frequency, that is do-able.
I am totally not a neat nut or germ freak, so I hope I haven't given the impression I want immaculate floors. I simply want not to feel crunchy grit as I walk across them, and not have my socks stick to crunchy sticky spots.
I am a little confused as DuraSeal's website states BOTH Renovator and Quick Coat are, "a combination of oil and resin" and state no other ingredients (such as wax). BOTH instruction sheets say work in with steel wool - I need a substitute for steel wool in either case. I can't tell from their descriptions the functional difference between their "neutral" "stains" and their "sealers."
And then there's this:
DuraSealÂ® Penetrating Gym Treatment is a durable, long lasting, multi-purpose gym finish designed to withstand the most demanding activities - games, roller skating, dancing, cafeteria use and other multi-use or traffic functions. Easily maintained with DuraSealÂ® RenovatorÂ® Cleaner and Reconditioner.
I think I will call Minwax/Duraseal next week and see if I can get a technical rep who can help wade through the products.
I really like this idea of stage surface, though. I think we're getting closer to a solution.
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