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Wed, May 26, 10 at 14:08
| I previously posted a message about our new engineered floor having smudges and marks on it as well as appearing dull. The floor guy was here today and cleaned for an hour with some kind of glue remover. But the marks remain. He called the installer who said he also had tried to remove them. (It angers me that the installer didn't say anything). It appears to be a manufacturing problem (Bruce). Here's a picture I took after he finished cleaning. This is just one section...these marks/smudges are all over. Do you think it needs to be replaced yet again? (This is a replacement of a large area of our floor where the concrete subfloor was not flat). Or can something be done with prefinished engineered wood? |
Here is a link that might be useful: Picture of floor
Follow-Up Postings:
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- Posted by echoflooring (My Page) on Wed, May 26, 10 at 22:25
| I believe Bruce will have to replace this one if this came from the manufacturer the way it is. I would not let them refinish on site. |
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- Posted by uniquewoodfloors (My Page) on Thu, May 27, 10 at 0:18
| I agree with echoflooring's opinion. |
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| If those marks were on the product before installing them (i.e. they have nothing to do with glue), then Bruce may not honor the labor portion of a claim, as the installer should have noticed the defects and rejected the material. But, I have been wrong before, so take this with a grain of salt. |
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| The problem with these marks is that when you look straight down at the floor, you really can't see them. You can only see them at an angle. This installer also put down planks that had dents in them. You would think that they would've been more careful since this was the second time they were installing the floor. They had to tear up a large section of the original floor because the concrete substrate was not flat. I think we were better off with the uneven floor. |
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| The installer is the last pint of inspection and should not be using pieces with damage. Sometimes the damaged area can be cut out and the two pieces used, but sometimes it is just scrap. |
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| glennsfc and brickeyee, you're correct. I read Bruce's warranty and they say they are not responsible if the installer installs bad wood. It's up to the installer to inspect the wood before gluing it down. The fact that our installer tried to clean up the marks means that he saw them...at what point, I don't know, but he should have at least said something. |
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| I worked for Bruce and if it is a factory problem the floor could easily be recoated without replacing. It adds a layer of finish and would make it like new. We approved this all the time if it were a factory issue. |
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| boxers, you've made me so happy! But I need to double check with you....this works for an engineered floor? |
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| Thanks for the heads-up - I will be sure to be at my new home when the flooring is installed. I'll check the boards! |
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- Posted by echoflooring (My Page) on Mon, Jun 14, 10 at 22:52
| Yes..the manufacturer will back the product on engineered, the same if it was Solid. Even more so in todays world. I can get a replacement done on an engineered much faster than solid normally. Now..you tell Bruce that the marks were not noticed until the floor was in. The installers did not see them as they can not be seen looking at individual planks. Only after cleaning and viewing at an angle did they become evident. That removes you and your installers liability of seeing it as it goes in. I AM GOING TO BE PERFECTLY HONEST, AND I HATE CLAIMS, BUT i WOULD WANT to know exactly what they planned to do to my floor before I said OK. You have purchased an engineered real hardwood floor with a furniture styled finish. If they start to monkey with it, it will not be the same as the refinishing conditions are not the same and the same equipment can not be used. If it is a problem with the finish, they owe you a brand new floor with labor included. They may want to make a cash settlement also...but that will be up to you. |
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| yes you can recoat any factory finished floor no matter what the construction. I'm curious how it turns out. |
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| "yes you can recoat any factory finished floor no matter what the construction." While you may be able to simply apply another coat of finish, not all finishes stick to themselves if the old coat is fully cured. Screening (light sanding) and other methods are used to give the new layer something to try and grab onto in the old finish. |
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| The installer's boss was here today to look at the floor. He said it's Bruce's issue, not an installation issue. The fact that these marks weren't easily seen while they were being installed does take the blame off the installer (as echoflooring stated). So, we and the installer's boss are working on getting a Bruce rep here. That may be another week or two. I will post an update. Thank you all for responding. |
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- Posted by echoflooring (My Page) on Wed, Jun 16, 10 at 0:52
| When the rep comes, ask if it is a distributor sales rep or an actual Bruce Rep. Many distributor sales reps are worthless and will do nothing to fight for you. Sometimes they do all right, but we normally want the manufacturer rep to come. If it is a distributor sales rep, explain that you want to know when the claim will be submitted and you always have the right to complain to the claims department at Bruce if the process begins to slow. Trust me I know. We have an actual claims department within my company just to handle customer issues. Stay on top of this one and if you wish a new floor, make it extremely clear as it sounds you are owed one. Again, if you can live with the blemishes, they will step up and compensate you, maybe up to 60 plus percent of cost of labor and retail product. Just some food for thought. Good Luck. PS..do not ask for compensation as they will low ball it..You must ask what are the options besides tearing up the house again. You can tell them you do not want a refinish procedure done. Good Luck. |
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| Thank you for the great advice, echoflooring. When we first had the problem with the floor not sticking (due to the non flat cement substrate), the installer brought who he said was a Bruce rep, but it was a distributor sales rep. It didn't really matter because this was an installation issue. Now we're dealing with a manufacturing issue. We'll be sure to tell the installer that we want an actual Bruce rep this time. Thanks again. |
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| We had a floor rep out today to inspect the floor. We had tried to get a manufacturing rep, but the best our installer would or could do was to send a distributor sales rep. When he called to make the appointment, he told my husband that he's authorized by the manufacturer to inspect the floor so we said okay (it was better than no action at all). He saw the marks, but didn't say much about them...I asked him if he was allowed to say anything and he said "no". But he took pictures and I printed out some pictures that I had taken. Also, there was a board that hadn't been installed that had the marks on it. Like the other boards, the marks weren't directly visible until you saw the board at an angle with the light hitting it (which means the installer couldn't be held at fault). The rep took that board and the pictures I had taken and told us it would be 7-10 business days before we heard from back from Armstrong. I would be very surprised if they denied the claim based on the rep's reaction. Will post an update. |
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- Posted by echoflooring (My Page) on Wed, Jun 30, 10 at 7:33
| Stay right on it..I have known distributor reps to do nothing. Especially if it is just an installer pushing it. Installers don't mean much to a distributor.Stores do but installers do not..all based on who's writing the checks to the distributors on a continual basis. If they deny..call Armstrong direct and get the claims department. Squawk like the dickens and they will begin to hear you and what you think is fair. It is their job right now to get away as cheap as possible. Not that they won't step right up, but I doubt they are gonna come back with what you want to hear. The distributor is authorized to look at the floor..but it becomes tougher for the claim as their are a lot of cooks in the broth right now. Let's wait and see. |
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| I just stopped by flooring today to find some info and came across your post. For what it's worth...we had new carpet a few years ago that clearly (to us) was defective. The manufacturer sent an inspector who said next to nothing to me (as yours did), so I thought for sure he thought I was imagining the issue. I was wrong! He told me he wasn't allowed to discuss the matter with me, but within a few days, I heard from the company and they said he declared it defective and they set a date to rip out and reinstall new carpet. So don't give up yet! |
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| Thank you both for your replies. We're being cautiously optimistic with this. When the rep was here, I watched him look at the floor, walk over to a spot and rub it with his finger, then step back to see if the spot was still there (he did this several times). So, he did see something. We are ready to call Armstrong directly if need be as echoflooring advised. But we don't expect to hear anything until end next week or the following week. In the meantime, have a great July 4th holiday. |
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| If anyone is still following this thread, we finally heard back from the Bruce distributor regarding our floor (after leaving him 3 voice mails and leaving a message for his supervisor). He's coming tomorrow to measure the area that "needs to be replaced". He didn't come right out and say that Bruce agreed to replace, but that's what it sounds like. We'll know more tomorrow morning. |
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- Posted by echoflooring (My Page) on Thu, Jul 22, 10 at 23:08
| I am anxious to here the end result. He should know how many sq ft from the original invoice ..whoever bought it for you..I hope its not some type of a stall. let us know..keep posting.. I also am confused why is he measuring, isn't the previous installer going to reinstall? Keep posting... |
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| Ok, he just left. He said the reason he came to measure was because he wanted to see if they could do just single board replacement rather than replace the entire area, but after looking at it again, he said, no, the problem is too widespread. He said that the installer did give him the sq. footage,, but he was hoping they didn't have to replace the entire area which is approx. 400 sq.ft. including waste. Now he has to figure out all the costs of replacement for wood, labor, moulding, etc. Looks like it will happen but we still don't have a definite answer. We told him that we're not in a hurry to replace, that we'd just as soon wait til September when it's cooler and the HVAC doesn't have to be on when they tear up the wood which can cause a lot of dust. But we would like a definitive answer. So...more to come. |
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| I asked him about the sample board we had given him. He said that a colleague speculated that the marks had occurred due to a problem at the mill. He said that while the boards were going through the finishing process, one of the machines may have kept stopping and when it stopped, it left these marks that ultimately were sealed under the urethane. Not sure if that's it, but at least they do acknowledge that there are marks on the boards that occurred during manufacturing. |
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- Posted by echoflooring (My Page) on Fri, Jul 23, 10 at 23:30
| Sounds like its heading in the right direction for you. Keep posting. See ya. |
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| We finally received a letter from Armstrong saying that they will pay to have our floor replaced. We weren't getting any answers from the distributor so my husband finally called Armstrong directly. At first they told us they couldn't find a claim under our name, but within a week, they sent us the letter telling us they will pay for replacing the approx. 600 sq.ft. area. So, this is the second time we're having this area replaced (first time was the installer's fault...he didn't level the concrete subfloor). I hope the third floor is the charm :-). |
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| glad it turned out. While it seemed like quite a struggle Armstrong will make good on claims. While many issues are consumer or maintenance related when there is a legit mfctg issue its good to buy a brand name. So much is no name Chinese imports it nice to hear a mfctr do the right thing. Many mfctrs give the distr reps authority to authorize repair or replacement so dont discount them. Also a distr rep who has a major acct will tend to fight for a dealer vs a factory rep who's actual customer is the distributor not the individual dealer. |
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| We're just curious as to what Armstrong's conclusion was regarding the cause of the floor defect. They are stepping up and taking responsibility, but we're curious as to what happened to these boards at the mill. And how did so many bad boards in this lot get past Quality Control in the first place? |
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| ruthie--that is wonderful news! It's so nice to hear of a manufacturer doing the right thing...even if it took a lot of work on your part. melanie |
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| Thanks, melanie! Persistence does pay off. |
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