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xmkx

why is everyone pushing water based poly?

xmkx
10 years ago

Everyone that I have gotten estimates for is pricing for water based poly. One company that has a good reputation won't even do oil based. Is there a reason people are pushing water based poly? Is it better than oil? Or is it just the fact that it takes more time for oil based poly to dry and it smells a lot more?

Comments (123)

  • kfreeman54
    7 years ago

    Waterbased vs Oil base finishes

    Not all finishes are created equal; even in waterborne or oil base products. Some finishes in both categories can be either really good or really bad. when shopping in a store most home owners will look at a waterbase or oil base product and say to them selves...." Wow I can get 3 gallons of this product for $30 per gallon or that 1 gallon for $100 per gallon. I think I'll get the 3 gallons" Why because they feel that it all the same and they are getting a better deal. Well guess what they didn't; they bought the cheapest finish that will last the least amount of time. Or if they higher a professional did you ask them what finish they are going to use, by the name and brand of the product? Did they try to get all the information on that product before the job was done? Did they ask for past customer references before they are hired?


    Waterbase finishes can be very good, some even come with warranties and Aluminum Oxide like the prefinished floors. They have high solids of 30% or 31% Urethane in them. These are the higher quality products. There are also some waterborne products that can give you the look of an oil base because they have oil resins in them and age just like a oil base product; even being a waterborne product. Then there are those that are mostly acrylic and not a urethane and these will not last as long.

    Oil base finishes are also very good; as long as they have a high level of polyurethane in them. These usually cost much more because they have little to no alkyds in them. Alkyd is a filler used in the place of polyurethane to increase the solid content of the finish. So not all oil base products are created equal. Some finishes can be 100% Polyurethane and some can be a blend of Polyurethane and Alkyds. As long as there is a little Polyurethane in a product, it is called Polyurethane.

    Sealers are important - find out which one is used. A good foundation is the key to a great floor. Every company has a finish system it should be followed. Never intermix companies products. No company will honor a job if more than one company is used. If you use XYZ stains - then use their sealers and their finishes. Mixing the companies is the worst thing because they may not all work with each other. If you are told they will - then call those companies and see what they say. I can tell you Not ONE will agree, You do it at YOUR OWN RISK. They test their products with their product and Never anyone else's.

    Lets not forget about the VOC laws throughout the country. Some areas are 550 VOC, 450 VOC and 350 VOC. Depending on the VOC's will depend on how the smell is afterwards. The lower the number the longer it takes to dry, the longer the dry time the longer the smell. The exempt solvents in the lower 350 VOC can extend the smell in an oil base finish. The best advised I can tell someone to help remove the odor is.....Finish dries best with exchange of air. The rooms that are done should have a fan in the window facing out; so it can pull the air out of the room to the outside. Then in another window another fan pulling clean air in to the room/s. A ceiling fan will only move the air around in a room and not move it out, so they are useless. Air conditioners and heating units have filters and the odor can penetrate these filters and pass the smell throughout the home, so these should be turned off. Filters then need to be changed. Bed coverings, drapes and cloth anything can also hold the odors of an oil base finish and should be removed before hand or washed later.

    Spend some time and effort to know what you are buying before you buy it or find out what products are going to be used before you hire the person to do your floors and do your research.

    A gym finish looks great on a gym - NOT because its a better finish- but BECAUSE Street shoes and sneakers are never allowed on a gym floor. These floors only allow sneakers that have never been worn on the street, sidewalk or outside the building.

    High gloss finish dulls down quicker and looks older quicker, semi-gloss will look newer longer than high gloss but Satin will look better longer because it is already dull and it takes longer for it to start looking bad. Doesn't matter water or oil do the same thing. Be mindful of your floors if they start having white scratches they can be fixed easily. When they start to turn grey or go black it's time to do them again. I always recommend high traffic areas get recoated once a year (ex. kitchen, family rooms, main first floor hallways). The upstairs usually will last longer, not as much company walks through there. EVERYTHING Scratches steal, blacktop, bricks rocks; nothing is impervious to scratching expect it. It will happen! I do not let anyone walk on my floors with shoes on, you come in take off your shoes, I don't want those rocks you picked up scratching my floor. Have walk off mats at each doorway from outside, sweep regularly and vacuum once a week to avoid damage to your floors. Clean them with a good cleaner not some junk from the big box stores. No oil soaps or waxes, what ever companies finish is used; use their cleaner.

    Call the finish companies you choose to use on your floors before you agree to the products being used. Make sure that what the contractor say they use is in writing, Follow up by making sure and go to the jobsite when they are coating in the floors. Do Some research on the products, do your home work.

    People spend so much time investigating what kind of car, television, phone they are going to get and these things last a short time. Yet when it comes to their floors they only look at price. Then expect that something they use everyday and abuse every day should be wonderful and never have a problem. Don't look for the most expensive or the cheapest.....look for the one that will give you the most information on what they use, past references and do they stand behind their work.

    Great place to start http://www.hardwoodfloorsmag.com/resourcebook/  or http://www.nwfa.org/

  • david_hewson34
    7 years ago

    Does anyone know what finish is applied to the bamboo flooring sold by Costco?

    I covered my basement stairs with this product and the finish is still as new after a few years relatively hard use.( and the price is right!)

  • PRO
    Cancork Floor Inc.
    7 years ago

    Low-end, off the shelf, mass produced bamboo finishes that are "tough" = aluminum oxide UV cured urethane finish. Anywhere from 5 - 9 coats would have been used. It is impossible to reproduce this level of perfection on-site.

    Good luck.

  • handymac
    7 years ago

    When I installed(9 years ago) the solid wood, site finished floors in our current house, I used an oil based floor poly for the demonstrated better toughness.

    I needed three days for the finishing---even when using a poly that was overcoated in less than 12 hours. That meant three coats took two days to be able to walk(stocking feet) on the floors and another 24 to cure for traffic. I then waited another week to move in furniture.

    I could do that because we were doing most of the repairs(foreclosed house) before moving in.

    The customers for whom I did flooring could not take that much time---having to leave their home for a week or two. Most also did not want the odor during cure time that oil based finishes cause.

    I will be refinishing the floors next spring, due to the amount of traffic(dogs and live in relatives) and will use a water borne product. Reasons? Am not able to move out, cannot allow 36 hours cure times, and have to stay in the house during refinishing. Water based fits that schedule.

  • gregmills_gw
    7 years ago

    i just want to remark on John Miles remarks on the pros not being able to be objective in the reasons for both types of polys.

    while it is true there are some floor guys out there that enjoy the benefits of water in the sense of being able to apply multiple coats in a day and also finishing a job faster and able to move onto the next, id like to point out thats a minority of the floor guys. True professionals will spend all the time they need to with customers to help them educate them on the differences and suggestions based on real world experiences in dealing with both.

    From my experience having one job go oil based poly, doesnt slow down my schedule one bit, it doesnt take me any longer to coat an oil based floor over a water based floor. many people are capable of juggling many jobs at once and i dont know of any who solely do one job to completion before moving onto the next one.

    A lot of the comments suggesting water based polys show wear sooner than oil is all subjective. One familys foot traffic is going to be different from the next. and not all polys are created equally.

    While yes Oil based Polyurethanes do require longer dry times between coats, a 3 coat floor can be done in 3 days, while a water based poly can be done in 2 days. most manufactures recommend no more than 2 coats in 24 hrs. so right there you save only a day, and with the amount of hassle it can be to move out all furniture and live outside of a customers comfort zone, 24 hrs is not that big of a deal.

    The smell is bothersome to some people, but most oil based polys will allow light foot traffic after 6-8 hours in ideal environmental conditions. Some choose to leave for the duration, but for those who cannot, you can still sleep in your home every night. And opening windows and turning on fans does do a lot.

    The last point i want to make is Oil based polys can give a more richer tone to a floor as opposed to water based polys. Its all depends on the final look the customer is after.

  • gonnabuild
    6 years ago

    We're getting ready to put down about 2500 square feet of nail down handscraped white oak flooring in our home in the Dallas area. I'm getting the same conflicting recommendations from the flooring contractors we have bidding the job that I've read in this thread. As an engineer, I absolutely drain the mug on understanding everything I can possibly understand before doing any job. From the wood type, grade, acclimation, subfloor, installation, transitions, sanding, staining, finishing, etc; SO, to the flooring pros out there, what are the BEST oil and water based poly finishing products that I should be specifying? As with all things, the products used absolutely dictate the results. Cheap oil or water based finishing products will end up failing. High quality products will less likely do so.

    The guys pushing water based do say that they use the "$80 per gallon stuff", as the cheaper ones won't give good results. I'm personally leaning heavily toward oil based, but would really appreciate it if you could let me know what the premier products (stain and finish) are in each category. Thanks a bunch in advance!!

  • PRO
    Cancork Floor Inc.
    6 years ago

    "...they use the '$80 per gallon stuff' as the cheaper ones won't give good results." Uhmmmm...the $80/gallon IS THE CHEAPER stuff. Sorry but I've seen MUCH higher priced water based polyurethane's than $80. In my neck of the woods, anyone can buy $80/gallon polyurethane off the shelf at Home Depot. I would seriously question the level of "good stuff" these guys work with.

    Loba 2K Supra AT polyurethane = high-end 2 part water based polyurethane out of Germany with superior scratch resistance (360% HIGHER abrasion resistance than Bona Traffic) that has just won the "Very Low VOC" award in Europe. It also has the best slip resistance on the market. Which makes it EXCELLENT for people who are susceptible to falls. Sells for $169/gallon (www.icorkfloor.com). That's DOUBLE the price of the "$80/gallon" that your guys are touting. Just so you know.

    Oil based can cause health issues in people with sensitivities - like asthma, COPD, migraine, Multiple Chemical Sensitivity Syndrome, nose bleeds, etc. Some of these sufferers won't be able to return home for 6-8 weeks = HUGE amounts of money spent on secondary accommodations.

    If you wish to look at HIGH END stuff, look across the pond to Europe. The oil based (aka SOLVENT based) finishes are illegal. Not allowed. For several decades. The US sector cannot hold a candle to the European market in this area.

    If you are investigating the "best of the best" start with Germany, move to the Netherlands, then Belgium (surprising things come out of Belgium when it cojmes to finishes and stains) check out Switzerland...and then see if Austria has come up with something. These powerhouses in the "finishing" industry will have many lines that outperform the $80/gallon products...any day of the week.

    Good luck. Loba will do everything you need - without the nose bleeds.

  • veggiegardnr
    6 years ago

    There are other options besides oil and water based polyurethanes. We used a hardwax oil to finish our hardwood floors and we'd definitely do it again. We really like it. There is some maintenance required, but we've found that to be easy.

    There seem to be pros and cons to every type of finish. I'm not sure that there's an absolute best type of finish (though it seems pretty obvious that some brands are much better than others), it's probably more what's best for the individual homeowner.

  • PRO
    G & S Floor Service
    6 years ago

    My opinion,

    oil base: Poloplaz Primero

    water base: Loba Supra AT (must be AT: Ceramic/Aluminum oxide finish, regular supra is acryllic, I believe)

    Hard wax oils: Pallman Magic oil

    Reactive stains: Ciranova

    Tung oil: Waterlox

    Aniline dyes: Transtint/General Finishes, wood stains: whichever one that doesn't bleed back and dries the fastest.


  • glennsfc
    6 years ago

    Cancork...have not used the Loba 2K...sounds very interesting.

  • gonnabuild
    6 years ago

    Thanks G&S Floor Service for a pro FINALLY putting some product names out there for us to research. All of the scolding and "do your research" are not helpful to we poor homeowners who have no basis upon which to start. We need less preaching without a fact base to back it up, and more "here's what I use" to allow us to do the research, decide for ourselves, and choose our contractors accordingly. Sorry if I sound prickly, but I am, and just throwing out an opinion without providing backing products/evidence is NOT helpful.

    Sorry if I've offended any of you, but if I have, so be it. For those who are not offended, please help us out and provide your preferred products and reasons/comparisons to others to led you to choose them as the best for your customers. I personally thank you, and believe that the community will as well.

  • kraker_pete
    6 years ago

    Hi, just tried to screen & topcoat existing water-based poly over maple flooring. I used an orbital handheld sander because I wanted to get the deeper scratches out. I was certain I did not reach wood, but the end result was multiple dark splotches where I presumably got down to wood. What now? Redo the entire floor?

  • ksc36
    6 years ago

    Make sure you get some samples and do some testing if you are picky. Water base finishes can ruin the look of some woods (my opinion). Most of those "euro" finishes are grossly overpriced. Half the cost is the transportation costs....

  • gonnabuild
    6 years ago

    Pretty sure we're going to go old school with oil based poly over dark brown 4" or 5" hand scraped white oak. We've looked at several floors from each of the contractors we're considering, and just like the look of the oil better. Much deeper and richer, while the water based always looks kind of flat.

    We have some friends who did their family room several years back with oil, then came back and did the rest of the house with the same contractor, who re-sanded the original floor and used water based on everything. They are pretty unhappy with the appearance, and said that they would definitely do oil the next time it's refinished. I agree, I liked the look of their original floor better than the expanded version with the water poly.

  • kfreeman54
    6 years ago

    Absco Waterbase Sealer gives the Amber look of an Oil base finish. It has oil resins in it and is still a waterborne sealer at 275 VOC. Top off with TrekPlus, has the Sheen levels of an Oil base, yet still a waterbase finish. Out beats oil base and equal to the old Moisture Cure finishes. Fortified with Aluminum Qxide-15 yr Wear warranty and out beat Traffic. Only finish with all these attributes on the Market today.


    I've usethe Loba and it's extremely Slippery. Other contractors tell me they would never Use on stairs fo fear their customers would fall.

  • gonnabuild
    6 years ago

    Another shout-out to G&S flooring! I've done a bunch more research on the finishing side of the floor and have eyes wide open to the trade-offs and best products. As a result, I've been able to ask much more direct, educated questions to the prospective contractors, and am now able to not waste their time or mine.

    While I'm still an old school oil guy, I'm now confident that Loba Supra or Bona Traffic would provide a durable finish. That said, I'm REALLY interested in the hardwax finishes (Rubio or Pallman) and talking to a contractor who does that next week. Sure, I'll pay a bit more for the floors up front, but DO NOT want the nightmare and expense of having to move the family and furniture out of the house again in 5 years to fix a failing finish job. Thanks again everyone's input, and still open to learning more. After all, this forum is all about educating ourselves to make better decisions with the help of you great professionals!!

  • PRO
    G & S Floor Service
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Regarding hard wax oils: Rubio has more pre-colored oils available, compared to Pallmann, but same durability and maintenance. The main reason why I like Pallmann's magic oil over Rubio and Loba. Pallmann's does not have any bleed back (excessive oils coming back up through the pores or joints). As an end user (the homeowners) you shouldn't have to walk around with a rag or socks to wipe up bleed back from the oils, after it has been finished. Pallmann's = No bleed back. That's time saving for contractors from calls.

  • gonnabuild
    6 years ago

    Thanks again G&S! Any other thoughts, pro or con on the hard wax oil finishes? I find the concept really interesting, but know that it is a pretty new system.

    We have an active dog, kids, a pool outside the main living area, kitchen etc. so there will be some pretty hard use on the finish. I've been trying to talk my wife into going back with tile in these high use areas, but she's set on wood throughout. So the durability of the finish is a big deal to me.

  • gonnabuild
    6 years ago

    OK, so here's a new one to me. Had a contractor over today to bid our new floors and he said that he used Masterline products (a Duraseal off brand product), and would stain with oil, then 2 coats of water based and a final coat oil poly. Huh????

    Is this some new technique to do a fast and dirty finish job, or have I missed something in my research and discussions with other contractors?

  • kfreeman54
    6 years ago

    Depending where you are located, your area probably has a higher VOC. If that's the case you cannot get an oil base sealer. Using a waterborne sealer is fine and NOT a cheap out job. Sealers are made for the purpose to penetrate the cells of the wood. A higher VOC product can not do that as well. I know many a contractor that works this way and have great results.

    Mastering is Not a DuraSeal Off Brand product....it IS there product..No off about it.

    He told you every product he was using, you're very lucky because a contractor who's trying to get over on you Won't tell you a thing about the products they use unless you ask.

    Sounds like he's staying with one manufacturers product and that's the best thing you could hope for.


    However if you're not comfortable with him....it's easy....don't hire him. Bethere off for both of you, you both need to have a good relationship and it's your home.

  • gonnabuild
    6 years ago

    Interesting, I've not had anyone else take that approach. I only know, because I learned on this forum to ask;)!. The other contractors are all either going all water or all oil, as we're in the Dallas area and there are no environmental restrictions. Not sure what to think about it.... Thanks for filling in the blanks.

    That said, wish I could find some contractors doing hardwax oil finishes around here, but sadly, most aren't into trying new things....

  • PRO
    G & S Floor Service
    6 years ago
    last modified: 6 years ago

    Some contractors use this system for faster turn around on projects. When it really isn't. The idea is to stain, apply a sealer, hot coat water base poly, buff and apply oil poly. Some will apply oil poly than water base poly, because they struggle to achieve a bubble free oil base finish, but that's another topic.

    Issues, I've seen is adhesion and blotching.

    You need a full cure of each finish, when converting from solvent to water to solvent finishes. Otherwise, big adhesion issues and blotching will occur.

    You need a minimum of 72 hours for oil stains to dry, longer for darker stains, before applying any water base systems. And depending on the product, up to 14 days for a water base system to cure before applying an oil base polyurethane. This system would work if, you are doing a split schedule, between the water base poly and oil poly.

    I had, drying issues with Masterline stains. This was a decade ago, when I used their product. Not sure how the product is now. The stain will move around if it isn't dry.

  • gonnabuild
    6 years ago

    Thanks again G&S! I thought that drying/curing would be an issue, particularly with different chemical compounds fighting each other.....

  • gonnabuild
    6 years ago

    Hello all, still getting bids and learning with every one. Latest contractor does Pallmann X96 and X98 water poly. I'd never do the 96, as it's a one part and we have kids, dog, pool, dirt, etc., but know that it's a bit less expensive than Bona Traffic. He says it's better, what say you?? Thanks again for your help!!

  • kfreeman54
    6 years ago

    Have you called the manufacturer of the products you are concerned about? If you call the companies they each have a technical department. Each company will tell you the best approach to their product.

    Yes there are Waterbase sealers that can go under an oil base product. They are sealers made for this reason - When the VOC had changed drastically, contractors had a hard turn around to using quarts instead of the usual 1 gallon jug or the 5 gallon pails. Granted some contractors do use the quarts because its the old formula from before 1978. Most would prefer not to, so a development of a waterborne sealer came in to the market. These can be sold in all sizes and are more of a convince to the contractor and they don't have a lot of garbage to get rid of; meanwhile they are using a VOC compliant product in EVERY State.

    As for polyurethane finishes depending on the state you live in will dictate what can be used in a 1 gallon jug or a 5 gallon pail - oil base and Waterbase alike. Quarts anything goes in every size.

    Also if you are looking for a contractor have you tried the NWFA (National Wood Floor Association) to find a contractor. Click on http://member.nwfa.org/search/custom.asp?id=4322  to find a contractor near you.

    There is a Product called TrekPlus with Aluminum Oxide and a 15 year Wear Warranty. Its a Waterbase product and has a sealer that give you the look of an oil base that can be used underneath 1 or 2 coats and then 2 coats of the TrekPlus product.

    Call the manufacturers about their products and find out from them. Check out the NWFA website


  • PRO
    G & S Floor Service
    6 years ago

    X96 applies better than X98. It is probably the better of the two. X98 is not as durable as Pallmann say it is. We applied X98 in a retail shop. After a month of curing, the finish still scuffed pretty easy. Probably why the rep tends to push X96 over X98.

    I would go with Traffic HD for the fast cure time and durability. Just the typical 2 coats over the sealer will do fine on residential floors. For commercial floors I recommend adding a 3rd coat of HD to get over the two year hump. If, you are applying stain. I recommend applying 2 coats of Bona Mega and 2 coats of Traffic HD over stains.

    Trekplus doesn't hold up for 15 years, 7-8 = yes, for typical seal and two coats, unless the room is not being used. Traffic HD will outperform Trekplus. We used Trekplus in the past. 7 to 8 years is about the timeline for refinishing floors coated with Trekplus. Applying a third coat of Trekplus might get you close to the 15 year mark, but I doubt it. For stain, use two coats of Grand and two coats of Trekplus to prevent adhesion issues. Aluminum oxide will not bond to stain.

  • gonnabuild
    6 years ago

    Thanks again G&S! Another question; since we struggling to find a contractor experienced in Rubio Monocoat or Pallman Magic Oil, we'll probably end up with poly :(, the contractor we're leaning toward uses DuraSeal oil based stain and poly (3 coats of poly) and Bona Traffic water poly (2 coats of poly). BUT, they're quoting $1.00 per square foot more for the Bona. I expect it to be more based on the prices I see it selling for online, but is $1/ft a reasonable upcharge? Over our 2000+ sq/ft, that certainly adds up..... Thanks!

  • kfreeman54
    6 years ago

    That is reasonable for that price due to the expence of the Traffic/ Traffic HD. However I would still take a look at the TrekPlus. I used it many times and find it a higher quality product for less money. I even used it on my own home with 2 dogs and 3 kids it has held up the best out of what I have put down on the floors. For higher end jobs this is my go to finish. It comes in 4 sheens. There is no comparison, in my opinion better than Traffic hands down. It is a very high end product with about a 20% savings, higher build thickness on the floor and the sheens are equal to an oil base sheen. Looks better, lasts longer and wears better.

  • PRO
    Cancork Floor Inc.
    6 years ago

    A $1/sf up-charge for Bona is about right. Don't think of it as how "expensive" Bona is...think of it as how CHEAP DuraSeal is. That's probably a better way to look at it.

    When I sell Loba 2K Supra to our clients to seal their cork in TWO coats (one LESS than a hardwood floor finish), it adds $0.60/sf onto the cost of the cork purchase. And that $0.60/sf is only for the product, not the application. If they pay someone to apply those two coats, it adds another $1 - $1.50/sf onto the cost of the installation.

    So the $1/sf for the Bona SYSTEM (all 3 coats + or - stain) is not a problem. It really points out how cheap the DuraSeal is.

  • gonnabuild
    6 years ago

    They're actually saying it's $1/ft for 2 coats as that's all you need with the Traffic... Shouldn't they be putting down 3? Also, do they need to use a sealer after the stain before putting down the poly (we're doing medium-dark brown on handscraped white oak)? Thanks again for helping educate me!

  • calidecormom
    6 years ago

    I would not recommend poly under any circumstances. It peels and scratches...I've had both oil, And now poly.

  • PRO
    G & S Floor Service
    6 years ago


    All 2 component polyurethane needs a binder over stain. The cross linker or hardener causes adhesion issues. Depending on the product, it can be a recommended sealer or 1 component polyurethane. This is why I recommend using Bona mega (1 component) over stain for HD(2 component). If, the instructions state "do not use over stain", follow the instructions. Otherwise, you can cheat by using shellac. Shellac is a universal binder.


    2 coats is not enough build for buffing over the stain. They will risk the chance of over buffing and removing stain. Or vice versa, not enough buffing and not smoothing out the finish enough.

  • kfreeman54
    6 years ago

    Oil base is referred to as poly / polyurethane. Waterbase /Waterborne is referred to as Urethane. Also Everything scratches steel, blacktop and yes even floor finishes. You need to expect that scratches will happen. It is unrealistic to think that your finish won't scratch. Life happens and nothing is impervious to scratching. With that in mind taking precautions can help in reducing your scratching...chair pads (checked every six months to make sure they are secured to the bottom of chairs); walk off mats (picks up dirt from your shoes); sweep and vacuum regularly to pick up any debris brought in from outside. I DO NOT allow street shoes to be worn on my floors and definitely NO High Heels! You walk all day long outside and pick up grit and grime on the bottom of your shoes and sneakers then trapes it around your home and don't expect any scratching to occur??? That's crazy! Also High heels - if the tips of the heels aren't maintained that metal spike is like shooting a BB gun at your floor - a small woman of 120 lbs puts over 5000 lbs of pressure on the back of that heel when she steps down...every step she takes. NO HEELS in my house - ot even me.

    Peeling occurs when what is below it does not dry...example - when stain is applied and the finish goes on before the stain has had a chance to dry completely. The surface of the stain may be dry yet between the boards and in the pores of the wood the stain has not dried to its fullest. When finish is applied over a stain that is still drying - it gases off and those gases push the finish off the surface.....hence peeling occurs.

    Finish is a term which means the final coats of a project. However finish can be used as a sealer also. There are sealers which can cut down on the dry time of the project yet they don't have to be used every time.

    Bona recommends 2 coats of their Waterbase /waterborne finish be used over a stain. They don't require a sealer under the finish unless it is a natural job and no stain.

    So again Call the manufacturer of the products and ask them what they recommend. You will have them on the phone and they can answer all of your questions as to what is the best way to apply their product and the benefits of their products if you should choose their finishes on your floors.

    When a contractor comes in to give you an estimate they should asking you questions about what you're looking for - what your expectations are and what you really need to expect. They should give you the choice of oil and water or something else. They should give you pricing accordingly and explain to you what and why their choices. They should tell you the products they will be using with literature for you (should you request it) You should be asking questions of these things if they aren't offered to you. Just because its a Waterbase / waterborne product doesn't make it the faster cheaper way. Not every contractor is capable of applying these products (yes even today) If it is to costly for you to move out of your home and you have to spend a little more money on a Waterbase. It will still save you the money for a hotel, food and a pet sitter(if applicable). Ask for referrals and do your homework. Find out about who you are hiring and their reputation - it could be bad yet it could be great. You won't know until you search and find your answers.

    A good contractor does not have a throw away phone - they can be found when you call them. They stand behind their work be it good or bad. They want their customers to be happy. They don't do this for just the money - They do it because they love it. They are proud of what they do and want you to be happy that you will recommend them to your family and friends. This is their lively hood and without a good reputation they don't have a lively hood.

    Don't go for the cheapest and don't go to the higher guy and tell them you can get it cheaper. If I were told that I tell them good for you and have a nice day. I have so in the past. Where did this get me - the job later on at a higher price; because now I have to go in and fix what was messed up by the last person.

    What strikes me funny is - People will search for months about a new TV, car, stereo system that will only last 5 -6 years or cell phone that will be out of date before you walk out the door. Yet they take no time talking with the manufacturers of the floor finishes or investigating the contractor. They just want the top best job for the cheapest price. Something that could last you 20 or more years - that is used every single day - that takes the most abuse - For the cheapest they can get it and expect it to last forever.

    Again - DO your homework - ASK the questions - CALL the manufacturer - Ask for and CALL the referrals.

  • kfreeman54
    6 years ago

    G&S Floor Service

    I do agree with most of what you are saying - However -TrekPlus Out preforms Traffic hands down at a 20 -25% less. Yes it last 15 years and I have seen it for myself. I have done jobs with it and going back to 2005 it still looks great - I looked at one about 2 months ago that I had done back in 2007. Over stain it does adhere - the aluminum oxide has nothing to do with the adhesion. The aluminum oxide makes it very difficult to screen / buff properly because its so hard. It is recommended to use a sealer and 2 coats of finish. So yes 3 coats are required a fourth coat is even better. I've put this on gyms floors and it still looks great and wears well.

    Grand is a great product but I prefer the Absco Waterbase Ambering sealer for the first coats under. Give a nice color, gives a nice oil look, powders up and buffs smooth. Everything I could want in a sealer.

    In my years of experience in the floor industry TrekPlus is the way to go. It's my go to finish and I pass the Durability and Savings onto the homeowner. It's worth every penny and have had many years of happy customers.

    I've been doing floors for almost 40 years professionally and have found this one to be the top of the line and wouldn't use another for the higher end jobs, unless they ask for the Bona product specifically. I will still give them a choice and let them do the choosing. More times then none they will pick the TrekPlus.

  • ksc36
    6 years ago

    Interesting read. I'm installing a heart pine floor in my own house (6"-7"-8"). I milled these boards out of old timbers said to be 300 years old.

    We did a few samples using Waterlox, oil poly, and a water base urethane. The waterbase looks the best but doesn't bring out the grain as well. We both like the lighter color of the waterbase but like the grain to "pop" a little more like the oil finishes. I know years ago we'd use an oil based sanding sealer to keep the floors a bit lighter.

    Any recommendations and sources for sample size bottles would be appreciated.

  • kfreeman54
    6 years ago

    Ksc36

    Absco Ambering sealer is an oil and water sealer. The oil resins in the waterbase Sealer give the look of an Oil base and still is a waterborne product. I would recommend 2 coats to really bring out the color.

    Yet, I like a tung oil on heart pine. Gives it that old world look and you said it's reclaimed so it will look even better.

  • ksc36
    6 years ago

    Thanks kf. I'm going to try the Trekplus and the Absco ambering sealer today if I can get a sample. My local supplier is listed as a dealer.

  • kfreeman54
    6 years ago

    They don't make sample sizes they come in gallon or 5 gallon pails. So your samples will be the actual gallon.

    Boscoismydog@yahoo.com

    Email me and I'll get a some to you.


  • ksc36
    6 years ago

    Thanks, I sent you an email.

  • PRO
    G & S Floor Service
    6 years ago

    Kfreeman54, my claim is based on using Trekplus in '04-'05. When Trekplus was still apart of "Lastnlast". The product then, in my opinion, isn't that good. Traffic then, out performed Sealer XL and Trekplus. If, "Absolute" improved Trekplus since their take over, that's great. It's certainly not a product that their reps promote here in the Massachusetts market.

  • kfreeman54
    6 years ago

    Understand, it ha been improved since introduced. I have had many successes with it and very happy customers. I have 2 dogs and 3 grandkids living with me. Instead of a scratch I get an indent and no wear. My customer from 2007 asked for a recoat and the floors still look great just needed refreshing up. The XL sealer was discontinued but I like the ambering Absco Sealer works great looks beautiful, applies and buffs easy, really great color

  • Angela Noble
    5 years ago
    Anyone have issues with Pallman Water based poly and dog urine?
  • PRO
    G & S Floor Service
    5 years ago

    If, the proper surface prep and coverage applied. You should not have issues. Which Pallmann product line was applied on your floor?

  • Angela Noble
    5 years ago
    G&S floor:

    The flooring guys said they applied 3 coats on the floor. I know 2 coats were done on the same day within a few hours. What is the application recommendations for the Pallman water-poly? Pallman said they would send more poly but I’m wondering if it’s the product? Dog urine should not be going thru 3 coats of Poly in 2 hours.
  • Angela Noble
    5 years ago
    Also, they said they did not stain our white oak, just used poly. Do you think because there wasn’t stain, that could be the issue?
  • PRO
    G & S Floor Service
    5 years ago

    Angela Noble, Applying 3 coats is meaningless if, the contractor does not prep or apply the proper coverage. All of Pallman's water borne finishes require a final cut at 100 or 120 grit and 450-500 coverage per gallon.


    The sealer will seal 80% of the pores with proper coverage of 450 sq. ft. per gallon. Allowing 20% of wood for the first coat of polyurethane to grab onto. With an additional 2 coats of water borne polyurethane at the proper coverage of 450-500 per gallon. Your floors should be more than sealed.


    If, the products was diluted or applied improperly. Your floors will not have the proper coverage and will not be properly sealed. Leaving it vulnerable to premature wear and failure.


    How was the product applied: T-bar, rolled, brush? Are there gaps in the floor? Was there any thinning of the product?



  • Amy
    4 years ago

    We have an infant, 1 large and 1 medium size dog. I want non-toxic as much as possible, while allowing our dogs to be indoor. Should we do prefinished floor or water-base coat on unfinished or natural oil coat on unfinished? I would really appreciate if professionals would give some advice on this.

  • calidecormom
    2 years ago

    Just redid another room with hardwood flooring and looked at my old comment. We used water based polyurethane at the suggestion of the installer in other rooms here. Big mistake! The results were poor, with easy scratching, and pulling off of the finish. This time, we insisted on oil based polyurethane, for longer lasting results against scratches, peeling, etc. Yes, we suffered through a couple weeks of awful fumes, but left windows in other rooms open, and sealed off the room with new floor. We know from our prior home that the oil based polyurethane will better protect the wood floors for decades, without being easily scratched. Don't be talked into water based poly by your installer, that's a suggestion from someone who has lived with both types of finish (water and oil).

  • gonnabuild
    2 years ago

    Our oil-based poly floors are going STRONG after three years of wear. They look absolutely LIKE NEW! So glad we didn't do water-based finish. Some friends of ours had water based on their floors about the same time that we did ours, and their floors are wearing VERY BADLY. In terms of smell, we did site-finished hand scraped white oak, and the worst smell by far was the STAIN, I wouldn't stay in the house overnight after the stain went down. The poly was stinky, but not as bad as expected.