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Reviews : Brazilian direct - http://www.brazilianhardwood.com/ -

Posted by luxman (My Page) on
Mon, Feb 15, 10 at 20:35

Did any one purchase solid hardwood from Brazilian direct online website (http://www.brazilianhardwood.com/). Any feedback good or bad? How is their product quality?


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Reviews : Brazilian direct - http://www.brazilianhardwood.com

Any experiences good or bad ?


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RE: Reviews : Brazilian direct - http://www.brazilianhardwood.com

I recently purchased around 1300sqf of solid 3 1/4" Brazilian Teak flooring from Brazilian Direct. I initially got samples from both BR111 and BD and honestly could not make out any difference. As per BD, they share the same mills as BR111 in Brazil and hence they are very confident its the same.

I then proceeded to order 1 box from BD which gave a much better idea about the quality of their finishing and milling. Only after my installer was satisfied with the quality of the milling and finishing, I proceeded with ordering rest of the flooring from the same lot. At present all the flooring is lying in my house acclimitizing.

The wood is milled in Brazil and finished in North Carolina and as I understand there are only a handfull of exotic flooring manufacturer that everyone (incl BR111, Mohawk, BD and everyone else) uses and then put their label on the boxes.

The BD customer service needs special mention. They are just awesome!!! I have never seen such prompt response to all your questions and queries and they are so eager to help. I had an issue with one of the boxes and they shipped me a new box almost immedidately. I will highly recommend BD to anyone that is looking for exotic flooring.


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RE: Reviews : Brazilian direct - http://www.brazilianhardwood.com

I think its a broad generalization to say only a handful of mills produce something, mention some major players in the industry and then assume that BD is private labeled and its all the same. Maybe your experinece was wonderful and maybe this was pure spam, but Mohawk or Br11 would back a warranty issue, so I'd be a little cautious on how BD would deal with any quality issues.


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RE: Reviews : Brazilian direct - http://www.brazilianhardwood.com

I am in the same boat -- I have three options for Brazilian Cherry solid 3/4 hardwood :
1. BR 111 3 1/4 solid Brazilian Cherry Hardwood (Hurst Hardwood as good price)
2. Brazilian direct 3 1/4 planks
3. Bella wood 3 1/4.

I need to make a decision soon.

Thanks for feedback.


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RE: Reviews : Brazilian direct - http://www.brazilianhardwood.com

I am in the same boat...looking at tigerwood from BD, LL or hurst woods. Luxman, did you decide yet? please share your experiemce.


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RE: Reviews : Brazilian direct - http://www.brazilianhardwood.com

I am still going to go with BD. Last year when I researched wood floors, I think BD was the only one who had much longer boards than others with a better price. I don't know if that has changed but next year I will probably look again.


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RE: Reviews : Brazilian direct - http://www.brazilianhardwood.com

I've been on this board for several years (6 maybe) and I've only heard good things about Brazilian Direct.


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RE: Reviews : Brazilian direct - http://www.brazilianhardwood.com

Consumers BEWARE. Brazilian Direct Ltd. sells inferior flooring products which they claim on their website to be 'Premium' and 'the best'. They LIE and will abandon you after the sale after promising excellent products and customer service prior to the sale, and they do it in a smug, insulting, rude manner (particularly Shannon).

I bought $8,000 worth of 3/4' walnut hardwood flooring (1300sf) from them in what were supposed to be 5' widths. The flooring widths ranged from 4 7/8' to 5 1/8' wide!!! Numerous boards are different widths from one end of the same board to the other!! Problem not discovered until well into the installation. Called owner Dan Cosgrove and he at first said he couldn't believe that the widths would be off by that much, and he said to continue with the installation because we shouldn't even be able to notice. He said he would take care of it if the installation took longer, because the installers had to literally measure each piece on BOTH ends (because some pieces varied in width from end to end), and segregate them by width and install same widths in each row. Problem was that over 50% of the boards were wrong width, resulting in unavoidable situation where different width boards had to be put into the same row... But Dan said we wouldn't notice it and that he would take care of it...

Installation was a nightmare, and floor looks like crap with all the uneven widths. Dan continued to say that it couldn't be true, and asked me to send him some boards and photos, so I did. Even after sending the samples and photos direct to him and to the mill, they continued to deny the problem exists, obfuscated, ignored, and basically blew me off, after I sent them 20 sample pieces and 30 high resolution photos clearly depicting the problem, AND OVER 100 EMAILS. And the amazing thing was that I had sent them an email prior to buying it, and asked them if they GUARANTEE that the widths will be consistent, and Shannon responded 'most certainly as that is all we offer'... I have all of this in writing, and the photos below don't lie, and I have dozens more physical samples!

They refunded about $1400 that I had to pay my installers for the extra time it took to install due to uneven widths in over 50% of the flooring they sent me. However, I am now left with flooring that does not line up properly, and it is highly visible. I am going to have to tear it all out and start over.

These people will promise the world but when it comes down to it, they WILL leave you high and dry and they will laugh about it, as they did with me. I am out $16,000 because they will not stand behind their products or their commitments or their promises.

This is the first time I have ever made an effort to do an online review of a company because I just don't have the time for this. However, in this case, I am making the time (as well as preparing to sue them) because what I went through with these people should not ever have to happen to anybody else. If you are smart, you will LISTEN to what I am saying and TAKE ADVANTAGE of my NIGHTMARE experience, and FOLLOW my advice - DO NOT DO BUSINESS WITH BRAZILIAN DIRECT AT WWW.BRAZILIANHARDWOOD.COM. You take a great risk if you do and, if you do, and get screwed, don't say I didn't tell you so. Upon request, I will PROVE what I am saying. Just send me an email at samburnell@verizon.net and I'll be happy to help you to understand why it is important that you NOT trust these people with your hard earned money.

Take a look at the photos at http://www.dataweb-design.com/brazilian.html. These are what I sent to Brazilian Direct. They can't be doctored. They are what they are. Ask yourself if YOU would be happy after paying nearly $8,000 for this flooring?

Here is a link that might be useful: dont do business with brazilian direct


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RE: Reviews : Brazilian direct - http://www.brazilianhardwood.com

Wow. I know this thread is old but thanks for posting this samburnell.


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RE: Reviews : Brazilian direct - http://www.brazilianhardwood.com

sometime boards shrink that much due to improper drying. That can be a risk with 'longer' length boards. I had that problem with Maple. Anyone that advises to go ahead and install and you won't notice isn't being very realistic.


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RE: Reviews : Brazilian direct - http://www.brazilianhardwood.com

Unless Burnell has an email from them telling them to install it, he actually took acceptance of it as he continued installation. I understand that the place is no good, but he really did ask for what he has here. You just cant put it in. He will lose in court compared to what he thinks he will get. If its wrong, dont install it. Thus why it is foolish to buy online. This just will not happen if he buys local and he if shops hard and brings the price to the attention of the local, it will not even cost any more. It is hard to feel sympathy for people who spend that kind of money online and expect the same service as you would get locally. It is a 2 way street in this world and buying from strangers online? Sorry, it just doesent make sense. You need to put some effort into buying locally and present these prices to your local store!! Then you wont need to ask about online experiences....Hey, everyone here feels for these situations, but it's like a broken record over and over and over..yet you will not find these nightmares with near these results when purchased from an independent...an independent with buying power...and they are out there.


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RE: Reviews : Brazilian direct - http://www.brazilianhardwood.com

It doesn't make sense to buy online? That's taking a little far don't you think? I'm all about supporting local business as much as possible. But to not buy from reputable companies just because they don't have a local branch can really limit your options depending on where you live.

If someone within driving distance had the customer service, milling quality, and selection in wide plank floors that Carlisle does, I would have gladly bought from them. But there wasn't anything remotely close in my area.

You can have just as much trouble buying locally, not all companies will stand behind their product.

In the beginning of my flooring search I spent quite a few months emailing back and forth with Brazilian Direct, and not once did any red flags come up. I feel for samburnell, sometimes you can do tons of research and still get screwed.


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RE: Reviews : Brazilian direct - http://www.brazilianhardwood.com

Sorry..too often to I get these types of complaints and emails on what can I do now? If it's local, I can tell you what to do..Online..just lick your wounds. Time will heal when its online disaster..That's all...and everyone in the business knows that..from manufacturers..distributors...and wholesalers...There is no representation in the field, and very little customer service...You cant even file a good civil complaint and get them to ante up when its state to state... If you need a light bulb from online go for it..but 8 grand worth of flooring? Please try not to defend a mistake of this magnitude..it only hurts viewers of these posts...If you are actually that concerned with saving money...there is always risk vs. reward. To pay 10% more perhaps or even 25% more...but you'll at least have a local service rep involved and also you'll be able to put a face to the defendant in civil court if you get screwed....It's just how it is ..sorry..I do this stuff for a living! i have helped people from all over the country get resolution when it is bought within the state..but online issues..it's a rarity to get resolution when it turns sour. Sorry


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RE: Reviews : Brazilian direct - http://www.brazilianhardwood.com

I am responding on behalf of Brazilian Direct Ltd. to the post above by username samburnell.

We feel that the situation is being misrepresented on a number of issues, and want to point out that:

- The Better Business Bureau fully sided with Brazilian Direct in this situation after reviewing *all* facts.
- We advised the customer stop the installation and return the unused cartons to receive a refund after he fully explained his issue.
- We offered to ship additional material free of charge if the customer needed extra to finish installation ( only some boards had problems, and they did not require a single box to complete the installation - in fact several were left over).
- We provided a 100% reimbursement for the extra installation expense $1360.00 (without the need for BBB or 3rd party intervention - because we felt it was the right thing to do)
- We have taken steps to improve our quality control processes
- The real problem seems to have been, as noted by independent third party inspector, improper and inadequate acclimation, installation, and humidity control in the home (under 20% moisture in the house)

We are very sorry that this customer had an unpleasant experience. However, we have had 1,000's of very satisfied customers since we started in 2002, and only one individual like username samburnell.

The original issue only affected some boards, and was resolved by his installers taking an extra day or two to sort the material. Ask yourself - why would he pay his installers $1,360 extra to fix a problem - if it didn't fix the problem? The fact is, the problem was fixed and a failure of moisture control resulted in gaps after the floor was down. Now, the individual trying to take advantage of the original issue (that was fixed) - and get additional compensation for the problems created later by not following our acclimation/humidity control instructions.

If you still have concerns before ordering from us, please ask and we will do whatever we can to address them. We can also show that this customer was still happy with his floor at least 80% through the installation - well after he noticed any issues. His post here came months after installation, when he turned on his heat and the moisture in his home was not maintained at needed levels. However, we cannot post customer information publicly on forums for privacy policy reasons.

There are lessons every customer looking for hardwood flooring can learn, regardless of where you buy hardwood flooring. If you fail to follow the tips and guidelines listed on your invoice and manufacturer recommendations, you could very easily end up with a problem floor, regardless of original material quality. Make sure to follow manufacturer and NWFA guidelines to protect yourself and your investment. The notes below are generally accepted guidelines but may not hold true for all products; please refer to your manufacturer recommendations and the National Wood Flooring Association guidelines for additional information.

(1) You must acclimate the flooring (in the boxes) in a climate controlled environment under normal living conditions and per manufacturer recommendations. This means the HVAC must be operational and running. Depending on your local climate, you may need a humidification control system as well. Boxes cannot be acclimated in a garage, in a house during the winter with no heat, or under similar conditions. Generally, the acclimation period is a minimum of 7 days and a recommended period of 14 days; some products may not require acclimation time. These are general guidelines for solid hardwood - please ALWAYS verify manufacturer recommendations for your specific product.

(2) Humidity control is crucial to long-term success of hardwood flooring installations. Failure to properly acclimate hardwood or maintain proper humidity levels in your home can cause problems in any hardwood floor. Typical problems include gapping, cupping, or face checking. We typically recommend maintaining 40%-50% internal relative humidity. Forced-air heating during the winter can cause a drastic drop in humidity levels, so be sure to monitor this to prevent gapping. Invest in a hygrometer for your home - they are typically less than $50.

(3) You must inspect material before installation If there is a problem with material quality, you have the power to resolve it before installing. If you complain after installing, you will be without recourse for the portion installed. Every hardwood flooring company follows the policy, a de-facto industry standard, that installation is acceptance of quality as installed flooring cannot be returned.

(4) Choose an experienced installer. Your installer has a duty to you to determine material quality before installing. We highly recommend choosing only National Wood Flooring Association certified contractors. When dealing with exotic hardwoods, try to choose an installer who has experience with exotics. They present a different set of challenges due to their hardness versus standard domestic hardwoods. The choice of installer is nearly as important as the choice of flooring itself. Going cheap on an installer to save a few hundred dollars could cost you thousands if the floor fails because of faulty installation.

(5) Choose a company with a good reputation. Preferably a member of the National Wood Flooring Association and BBB Accredited. No company will have a flawless reputation, but if they have been in business for 9 years and have only one complaint on internet forums, chances are you're making a good choice.

Brazilian Direct is a long-standing member of the National Wood Flooring Association, BBB Accredited, and we stand behind our products. We have been selling hardwood floors online for over 9 years. We gave username samburnell our full attention and resolution of his issue to the best of our ability. We did our best to help this individual, but we can't be responsible for problems he or his installers created.


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RE: Reviews : Brazilian direct - http://www.brazilianhardwood.com

I have to respond to Brazilian Direct's above response to my situation. They said, and my comments are in CAPS:

We feel that the situation is being misrepresented on a number of issues, and want to point out that:

- The Better Business Bureau fully sided with Brazilian Direct in this situation after reviewing *all* facts.

UNFORTUNATELY, BBB IS NOT A COURT OF LAW. AS IS MENTIONED MANY TIMES ABOVE, IF YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH AN ONLINE RETAILER INVOLVING A SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF MONEY - IN THIS CASE $8,000 - IT IS PRACTICALLY IMPOSSIBLE TO GET RESOLUTION IN A COURT. THESE GUYS ARE IN PENNSYLVANIA AND I AM IN CALIFORNIA. YOU WILL FACE JURISDICTION AND VENUE PROBLEMS BEFORE YOU EVEN GET TO PRESENT YOUR CASE, AND YOU MIGHT HAVE TO TRAVEL ACROSS THE COUNTRY TO APPEAR IN COURT. IT'S JUST NOT WORTH IT.

THAT IS WHY, REGARDLESS OF THE PROBLEMS I HAD WITH THEM, OR WHO IS AT FAULT, I HAVE TO AGREE WITH THE ABOVE POSTERS WHO RECOMMEND NOT DOING BUSINESS OF THIS MAGNITUDE WITH AN ONLINE COMPANY. IT WAS A HUGE MISTAKE ON MY PART AND I WILL NEVER DO IT AGAIN.

YOU CAN BELIEVE WHO YOU WANT HERE, BUT TRUST ME WHEN I TELL YOU YOU DON'T WANT TO BE IN THIS POSITION. YOU MIGHT PAY A BIT MORE LOCALLY BUT, LIKE THE ABOVE POSTER SAID, IF SOMETHING GOES WRONG, YOU GET TO FACE THE SELLER IN COURT.

- We advised the customer stop the installation and return the unused cartons to receive a refund after he fully explained his issue.

THAT IS AN ABSOLUTE LIE. THE OWNER, DAN COSGROVE, TOLD ME TO CONTINUE WITH THE INSTALLATION AND THAT HE WOULD TAKE CARE OF ANY ISSUES. HE SUGGESTED GETTING AROUND THE INCONSISTENT WIDTH ISSUE BY LAYING THE FLOORING SUCH THAT ALL BOARDS IN ANY PARTICULAR ROW ARE THE SAME WIDTH. THIS NECESSITATED HAVING TO MEASURE EVERY SINGLE BOARD'S WIDTH AT BOTH ENDS (BECAUSE SOME BOARDS HAD DIFFERENT WIDTHS AT EACH END!) BEFORE NAILING IT DOWN. ULTIMATELY, WE REALIZED THAT SO MANY BOARD WIDTHS WERE OFF THAT IT WAS GOING TO BE IMPOSSIBLE TO COMPLETE THE JOB PROPERLY WITH WHAT WE HAD ON HAND.

PICTURE THIS - IT TOOK OVER A MONTH TO GET THE FLOORING SHIPPED. 1300SF OF OUR EXISTING FLOORING WAS TORN UP AND THE NEW FLOORING WAS SITTING IN OPEN BOXES IN OUR HOUSE ACCLIMATING FOR TWO WEEKS. WE BEGAN THE INSTALL, NOTICED THE BAD WIDTHS, AND SPOKE TO DAN. HE MADE THE RECOMMENDATION ABOVE SO WE CONTINUED. WE GOT THE FLOOR HALF INSTALLED AND IT GOT SO BAD THAT WE REALIZED WE DID NOT HAVE ENOUGH FLOORING WITH CONSISTENT WIDTHS TO COMPLETE THE JOB.

AT THAT POINT, HE RECOMMENDED SENDING THE UNUSED FLOORING BACK... SO NOW THE FLOORING IS HALF INSTALLED, THE REST OF OUR FLOOR WAS COMPLETELY TORN UP, OUR FURNITURE STACKED IN OTHER ROOMS OF THE HOUSE, AND HE SUGGESTS THAT WE SEAL UP ALL THE BOXES, SHIP THEM AT OUR EXPENSE BACK TO BD, WAIT FOR REPLACEMENT FLOORING TO BE SHIPPED TO US (THE FIRST BATCH TOOK OVER A MONTH TO GET TO US), GO THROUGH ANOTHER TWO WEEK ACCLIMATION PROCESS, AND TAKE THE CHANCE THAT THE REPLACEMENT FLOORING WOULD NOT MATCH WHAT WE ALREADY HAD BECAUSE IT WOULD BE FROM A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT BATCH, OPENING UP A BRAND NEW CAN OF WORMS WITH THESE PEOPLE.

WHAT WOULD YOU DO? HOW WOULD YOU FEEL?

- We offered to ship additional material free of charge if the customer needed extra to finish installation ( only some boards had problems, and they did not require a single box to complete the installation - in fact several were left over).

"ONLY SOME BOARDS HAVE PROBLEMS"???

THIS IS THE WAY THEY ARE - TO THIS DAY, THEY JUST REFUSE TO ADMIT THAT THERE IS A PROBLEM AFTER I PAID THEM $8,000 IN GOOD FAITH.

THE FACT IS, NEARLY 50% OF THE BOARDS ARE INCONSISTENT WIDTHS. THIS IS EASILY PROVEN. JUST LOOK AT THE FLOOR. THIS IS SOLID PHYSICAL EVIDENCE THAT CANNOT BE DISPUTED AND I HAVE A TON OF IT.

- We provided a 100% reimbursement for the extra installation expense $1360.00 (without the need for BBB or 3rd party intervention - because we felt it was the right thing to do)

"BECAUSE WE FELT IT WAS THE RIGHT THING TO DO"???

HOW HONORABLE! WOW...

AGAIN, THIS IS SO DISINGENUOUS THAT IT'S NOT FUNNY. I HAD TO PRACTICALLY BEG THEM TO DO THIS AFTER DAN PROMISED ME HE WOULD. THEY TRIED TO BEAT ME DOWN AND DIMINISH THE EFFORTS OF MY INSTALLERS AND IT LITERALLY TOOK OVER TWO MONTHS TO GET THIS MONEY.

BOTTOM LINE - WHAT THEY MADE ME DO IN ORDER TO GET THE EXTRA MONEY THAT I HAD TO PAY THE INSTALLERS WAS SIGN A DOCUMENT GIVING UP MY RIGHT TO BRING FURTHER ACTION AGAINST THEM IN THIS MATTER, OR TO PURSUE WARRANTY CLAIMS WITH THEM WHICH, IN AND OF ITSELF, IS ILLEGAL. I HAD TO GIVE UP MY WARRANTY TO GET THIS MONEY. HOW DO YOU LIKE THAT? I GUESS THEY FELT THAT "WAS THE RIGHT THING TO DO" ALSO...

I KNEW THAT IT WAS GOING TO BE FUTILE TO PURSUE THIS IN COURT, AND I KNEW AT THAT POINT THAT THEY WERE NOT GOING TO STAND BEHIND THEIR PRODUCT OR THEIR PROMISES, SO I HAD NO PROBLEM SIGNING IT.

I RESIGNED MYSELF TO BITING THE BULLET, TAKING THE LOSS, AND LEARNING A LESSON - DON'T DO BUSINESS OF THIS MAGNITUDE WITH AN ONLINE COMPANY, AND PARTICULARLY BRAZILIAN DIRECT, NO MATTER WHAT THEY PROMISE, BECAUSE ALL THEY HAVE TO DO IS LIE TO YOU, GET YOUR MONEY, SELL YOU GARBAGE, AND THEN TELL YOU TO GO JUMP IN THE LAKE, WHICH IS WHAT BRAZILIAN DIRECT DID, AND THERE'S NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT.

THINK ABOUT THAT.

MY RECOURSE IS TO TELL MY STORY IN THE HOPES THAT SOMEONE ELSE DOESN'T GET SCREWED BY THEM LIKE I DID.

- We have taken steps to improve our quality control processes

WHAT? REALLY? WHY? IF THERE WAS NOTHING WRONG, WHY IMPROVE YOUR QUALITY CONTROL PROCESSES? PLEASE EXPLAIN THAT TO ME AND TO EVERYONE ELSE WHO IS READING THIS. YOU DID SAY AT THE BOTTOM OF YOUR ABOVE POST THAT THIS PROBLEM WAS CAUSED BY ME AND MY INSTALLERS, RIGHT? HOW COULD ME AND MY INSTALLERS AFFECT YOUR QUALITY CONTROL PROCESS? I THINK THE TRUTH FINALLY CAME OUT...

FOLKS, NOTWITHSTANDING THE FACT THAT THIS IS A BLATANT ADMISSION THAT THEY SOLD ME FLAWED PRODUCT, THAT IS NOT THE PROBLEM. THE PROBLEM IS HOW I WAS TREATED AFTER TRUSTING THEM IN GOOD FAITH, IN MAKING ME SIGN AWAY MY WARRANTY IN ORDER TO GET REIMBURSED FOR A PROBLEM THAT WAS THEIR FAULT, AND IN LITERALLY LAUGHING AT ME WHEN I COMPLAINED, AND LYING AND DISTORTING THE FACTS THROUGH THIS WHOLE PROCESS, UP TO AND INCLUDING THE PRESENT. THAT IS THE PROBLEM.

AND THAT'S WHY YOU SHOULD RUN, NOT WALK AWAY WHEN CONSIDERING DOING BUSINESS WITH BRAZILIAN DIRECT.

- The real problem seems to have been, as noted by independent third party inspector, improper and inadequate acclimation, installation, and humidity control in the home (under 20% moisture in the house).

BULL***T. I ACCLIMATED THE PRODUCT BY OPENING ALL BOXES AND LETTING THEM SIT IN MY CLOSED HOME FOR TWO WEEKS, WHICH IS WHAT THEY TOLD ME TO DO, AND WHICH WAS WITNESSED BY MY WIFE, MY KID, AND MY TWO INSTALLERS WHO, INCIDENTALLY, ARE PROFESSIONAL INSTALLERS WHO HAVE INSTALLED HUNDREDS OF FLOORS LIKE THIS OVER THE COURSE OF 20 YEARS. AS FOR HUMIDITY CONTROL, THE HUMIDITY IN MY HOME IS MAINTAINED BETWEEN 35 AND 45 PERCENT, DUE TO A WHOLE HOUSE HUMIDIFICATION SYSTEM WHICH I HAD INSTALLED IN THE FORCED AIR HEATING SYSTEM IN MY HOME AT A COST OF $700.

BRAZILIAN DIRECT KNOWS THIS. THEY PAID AN INSPECTOR TO COME TO THE HOUSE. THEY HAVE USED THIS INSPECTOR MANY TIMES IN THE PAST AND THEY PAY HIM WELL. I GUESS THAT'S UNBIASED, RIGHT? EVEN AFTER ME AND MY INSTALLERS POINTED OUT TO HIM DOZENS OF EXAMPLES OF THE INCONSISTENT WIDTH ISSUES IN THE INSTALLED FLOORING, AND PRESENTED AT LEAST 20 BAD PIECES TO HIM ALONG WITH A TAPE MEASURE, THE INSPECTOR COMPLETELY IGNORED THESE ISSUES IN HIS COMPLETELY BIASED AND PREJUDICED REPORT.

MY INSTALLERS COULD NOT BELIEVE HIS REPORT. NOT ONE MENTION OF THE PRIMARY ISSUE THAT HE WAS BROUGHT OUT THERE TO ADDRESS - INCONSISTENT WIDTHS.

WHATEVER. I SUPPOSE I COULD PAY SOMEONE TO FALSIFY THINGS AND GIVE ME AN EQUALLY BIASED REPORT IN THE OTHER DIRECTION, BUT THAT WOULD BRING ME DOWN TO THEIR LEVEL AND I REFUSE TO LOWER MYSELF.

We are very sorry that this customer had an unpleasant experience. However, we have had 1,000's of very satisfied customers since we started in 2002, and only one individual like username samburnell.

UNPLEASANT EXPERIENCE? HARDLY - THIS WAS A NIGHTMARE AND, DON'T KID YOURSELF, THESE PEOPLE ARE NOT SORRY.

WHEN I COMPLAINED ABOUT THESE PROBLEMS, THEY ASKED ME TO SEND THEM SOME PHYSICAL SAMPLES OF THE INCONSISTENT WIDTHS. I SENT THEM ROUGHLY 20 BOARDS, AT MY COST, MEASURED AND LABELED. EVEN IN LIGHT OF THIS UN-CONTESTABLE PHYSICAL PROOF, THEY REFUSED TO ADMIT THAT SOMETHING WAS WRONG, CLAIMING THAT, OF THE 10 OTHER CUSTOMERS WHO BOUGHT FLOORING FROM THE EXACT SAME BATCH AS MINE, NONE OF THESE OTHER CUSTOMERS HAD A PROBLEM. I THEN ASKED THEM TO PUT ME IN TOUCH WITH THESE OTHER CUSTOMERS. CAN YOU GUESS WHAT THEIR RESPONSE WAS?

BOTTOM LINE - BRAZILIAN DIRECT IS A VERY NICE, POLITE, HELPFUL COMPANY - UNTIL THEY HAVE YOUR MONEY IN THEIR BANK ACCOUNT. THEN, YOU ARE AT THEIR MERCY. THEY WILL LIE, DENY, MAKE FALSE CLAIMS, BREAK THE LAW, BLAME EVERYBODY BUT THEMSELVES, AND NEVER ADMIT WRONGDOING EVEN IN THE FACE OF INCONTROVERTIBLE PHYSICAL PROOF.

AGAIN, DO BUSINESS WITH THEM AT YOUR OWN RISK. YOU HAVE CERTAINLY BEEN WARNED.


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RE: Reviews : Brazilian direct - http://www.brazilianhardwood.com

Samburnell, Thank you so much for sharing your experience. If everyone shared their good and bad experiences, it will help us all to make educated decisions. I am glad I did not buy from Brazilian Direct after reading your report. Thank you!


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RE: Reviews : Brazilian direct - http://www.brazilianhardwood.com

About a couple of months ago, I was shopping for about 700 sq ft of Brazilian Cherry. I went through a few local stores, homedepot and Lowes. Lowe's price was close to $7/sq ft. Home depot price was $5.88/Sq Ft for 3 1/4" Homelegend Brand, plus they could do free shipping. Brazilian Direct offered me $5.65 sq/ft for 4" (random 7ft,3/4 thick), but with $300 shipping extra. With the 4", homelegend would go up to $6.25/sqt (a higher, I forgot exactly). I checked other local lumber stores too. The prices were around at least $6.7/sqft to above $7/sqft. I was very wary of Brazilian Direct from the Samburnwell's comments. So, I decided to go with Homedepot Homelegend 3 1/4" because I figured if something goes wrong, I can just take the darn thing to homedepot and drop it off there.
I placed the order for 780 sqt feet hardwood brazilian cherry and 260 square ft of engineered (for the ground above concrete area).
After I placed the order, I realized that I will be on vacation in a week for a whole week, and I can not be home for delivery, So, I canceled it.
Right after I was back from vacation, I tried to place the order again. It said out of stock for the hardwood, but the engineered went through. So, I called the customer service, they said they just have enough hardwood for me and I placed the order. Three days later, I got an e-mail said the hardwood was out of stock, but engineered already shipped out! What am I going to do? I went back to Lowes and two other small stores around me. I don't like the price at all, once I got the taste of $5.88/sqft from homedepot.
By this time, I already looked around for two months and got frustrated. So, I came back to the Brazilian Direct site and read the comments again, and called those guys in Brazilian Direct.
I was still very wary of the wood width uniformity,as Samburdell complained. I asked Shannon, the sell's lady for Brazilian Direct about my concern. She said Braizilian Cherry should not be a problem because it is very hardy. But I was still worried and thought all the comment above from those guys, $5000 order, what if I screwed up. But I really liked their price.
My wife called the BBB to check their record, they said some of the complaints were dealt satisfied. Then, I read Samburnell's post again. They gave him $1360. That means they are responsive. I did the calculation with my order ~790sq feet, plus their $300 shipping (~$5013, a little extra as well) I still get a good deal for 4" hardwood Brazilian Cherry instead of 3 1/4" from Homedepot.
What the hack, so, I placed the order. Worst is I got screwed and have to do another order. When it arrived, I opened the box, 4" wide, random 1- 7ft long. It was a shock, because the color was so different from what I thought (I did not ask for sample,dam me). I thought I got the wrong species. So, my wife called back, Shannon actually got back to us ( I thought we were dead once we ordered it, they will never talk to us again). She explained that Brazilian Cherry oxidized a lot and showed a few pics of before and after. I checked online with the Brazilian Cherry oxidation. Yap! It does change dramatically. So, I had my heart rested. I worked on it for two weeks, got the floor installed my self (against their advice using professionals). The floor looked fabulous. I loved the 7' length board, because you can lay it from one side to the other straight without cutting. The problem was, I did not have any waste (almost none), the floor board was so nice. AND I ordered 10% extra. They don't take returns, I have 5 boxes left. That really sucks!! I was going to do a bookshelf out of the left over. Then, my wife told me she wants to get the kitchen remodeled next year, so she did not want me to use the the leftover for bookshelf. It turns out I did not have much left over.I was kind of sad now because I was itching to make a couple of bookshelves out of it, now I can't do it.
The floor is there over two months now and it still looks beautiful, very hard and tardy. It starts getting a little dark as it oxidized. Actually, I kind of like the light color now. The brand is ROBISONS. I love the brand.

My figure is, if it is those really hardy wood, like brazilian cherry, ordering from them should be OK (still should be your call, not because I said so). Their price is good. You just need to be picky about the wood you are picking and make sure you are ordering the EXACT amount. My guess is, those people are trying to help while also try to make a living. I would say my experience with them was good and pleasant. But thanks for the above comments from Samburnell anyway, it made me a lot more careful.


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RE: Reviews : Brazilian direct - http://www.brazilianhardwood.com

Jack1234, thank you for your positive experience with Brazilian Direct. Please post pics! I am happy for you and now have two point of views.


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RE: Reviews : Brazilian direct - http://www.brazilianhardwood.com

pls let me know the quality of cumaru from brazilian direct? thanks


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RE: Reviews : Brazilian direct - http://www.brazilianhardwood.com

I will add my 2c here:

I bought about 500 sq ft of cumaru from BD in 2010. I had the same problems Sam B did, the widths of the flooring were different, mine was supposed to be 3", but varied about +/- 1/8". With wood flooring, ANY width variation makes it look terrible really fast. I had a table saw in the basement, and I hand selected the ones that were close, then ripped them all to the width of the narrowest one, then sanding the cut edge to smooth it out.

A tedious operation that I would not do again. The flooring turned out looking good, and the finish seems to be holding up well.

Hopefully by now BD has fixed this width problem, the only reason I ended up posting this review was a friend wanted to know where I got the flooring, so that led me down memory lane...

Seth


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RE: Reviews : Brazilian direct - http://www.brazilianhardwood.com

Hi all. Thought I'd add my 2 cents to the BD discussion. We're in the middle of a major first floor renovation - I thought I signed up to do the kitchen, until significant other decided the entire first floor (minus the laundry room and bathroom) needed to have the same flooring. I won't bore/amuse you with the details of the hunt for acceptable flooring, but suffice it to say we ended up selecting 3 1/4" amendoim from BD. Dan Cosgrove (the owner) and Nikki (the sales manager) were helpful and responsive before, during, and after the sale.
The quality of the flooring itself is unbelievable. I've installed about half of it and although the lengths are random there are more 4 and 5 foot lengths than I could reasonably have expected. As far as defects, there were 2 boards so far that had to be put aside. That's 2 boards out of approximately 600 square feet of flooring. There are some very minor variation in the board widths, but it's a very small percentage and the differential is less than 1/16 ". Small enough that the cleat gun takes care of it.
I don't know if BD has evolved and improved over time, if samburnell had a legitimate gripe 3 years ago, or if I'm just very lucky - but I've had a great experience with BD and got an exquisite amendoim floor (in progress photo attached) for roughly the price of premium red oak.
BD isn't the mill - in this case it was Johnson - but as my "sales reps", they were courteous and supportive throughout the process and in the event I lose my mind and let another major remodel hit my honey-do list, I wouldn't hesitate to use them again.


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RE: Reviews : Brazilian direct - http://www.brazilianhardwood.com

Bosdiyer; are you sanding your new floor? Was it unfinished?


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RE: Reviews : Brazilian direct - http://www.brazilianhardwood.com

It's pre-finished. Here's a picture that shows the finish better.

This post was edited by bosdiyer on Tue, Jul 16, 13 at 8:49


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RE: Reviews : Brazilian direct - http://www.brazilianhardwood.com

Bosdiyer
What brand is that floor it looks great. I am dealing with Brazilian direct also but haven't decided on wood. Wife wants teak but don't know how good it hold up gaps etc. I think it the color she loves matches our stained wood trim. Thanks


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RE: Reviews : Brazilian direct - http://www.brazilianhardwood.com

Bosdiyer
What brand is that floor it looks great. I am dealing with Brazilian direct also but haven't decided on wood. Wife wants teak but don't know how good it hold up gaps etc. I think it the color she loves matches our stained wood trim. Thanks


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RE: Reviews : Brazilian direct - http://www.brazilianhardwood.com

Bosdiyer
What brand is that floor it looks great. I am dealing with Brazilian direct also but haven't decided on wood. Wife wants teak but don't know how good it hold up gaps etc. I think it the color she loves matches our stained wood trim. Thanks


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RE: Reviews : Brazilian direct - http://www.brazilianhardwood.com

geo4, posting the same question multiple times will not get someone to answer you any quicker. Sometimes it will show impatience on your part and make people less apt to answer.


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RE: Reviews : Brazilian direct - http://www.brazilianhardwood.com

Hi geo4
It's amendoim. And the picture doesn't really do it justice. I suggest you do what we did. Order a box and lay it out so you can really get to see it. It's about 20 square feet so you can really get a feel for it. Ask them for a sample box from a large lot so you'll be sure to get very similar colors and grain patterns. Just be ready to order if you love it so you'll have a really good idea of what you'll be getting. If you wait until the lot you sampled is gone, it will still be nice but it may be a bit difference than what you sampled.
Also, be sure you really let it sit for at least a couple of weeks. One last thing - for all of these denser woods, you can't use a standard 16 gauge staple gun. You need to use 18 gauge L cleats or you'll be splitting the tongues all over the place. I'll be posting the "saga" of the first stage of this project in about 10 days after I get the wall cabinets up in the kitchen and can get most of the stuff piled on the floor moved so you can see the expanse of the amendoim. I just have to figure out where to post it!
Good luck.


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RE: Reviews : Brazilian direct - http://www.brazilianhardwood.com

Millworking man I will have a talk with my I phone about popsting the questions too many time,I just dont know why the phone does that ..
Bosdiyer I am also dealing with Braizilain Direct and wanted
the know how the company treats you.I also do like the wood you putting down since we will doing 1800 sq feet .please let me know how it out.. thanks George


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RE: Reviews : Brazilian direct - http://www.brazilianhardwood.com

Be happy to geo4. As I said in my initial post - I wouldn't hesitate to do business with BD again. They have been responsive, helpful, and knowledgeable through every phase of the process. As far as the flooring itself, we really love the amendoim. The color palette and intricate grain patterns are perfect for us. Exotic hardwoods are really a matter of personal taste, but for us this was the best choice.

This post was edited by bosdiyer on Sat, Jul 20, 13 at 12:01


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RE: Reviews : Brazilian direct - http://www.brazilianhardwood.com

Uniquewoodflooring I really like the picture and my wife likes it also. I notice that it comes in 5 inches or the smaller 3 wide.Is the 3 inches more stable then the 5? And I am guessing it might be more stable then the teak. Thanks for the picture.


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RE: Reviews : Brazilian direct - http://www.brazilianhardwood.com

Bosdiyer what gloss level did you pick? My wife likes the wider boards . So we learn from you and other people on here .


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RE: Reviews : Brazilian direct - http://www.brazilianhardwood.com

Our floor has a 45% sheen. My wife was originally concerned that it might be too reflective, so we looked at samples of 30% sheen as well. For us, the issue was that the lower sheen level wasn't available in 3.25" widths; only 3 and 4 inch widths. The 3" was too narrow for us and the 4 was too wide. We went with the 3.25 with 45% sheen and her reservations disappeared as the flooring went down. All of these choices are really a matter of personal taste. With this wood it's hard to go wrong. If you look at the in progress photos I posted earlier in this thread, you'll see that the angle the light is hitting at has a lot to do with how "shiny" it looks. This was true of the lower sheen as well.


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RE: Reviews : Brazilian direct - http://www.brazilianhardwood.com

Has anyone been happy with Brazilian Teak from Braizilian Direct.
Seems a lot of people post that they have purchase flooring but never follow up later with the reviews.
Bosdiyer about the only one. As far as ordering online I have ordered every plumbing item from Faucet direct and always got a great product at a cheaper price. The hardwood we mow have I ordered from Bruce at a reduce price and it was just great.
All I am looking for is a newer update on Braizilian Direct Thank you for the time.George


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RE: Reviews : Brazilian direct - http://www.brazilianhardwood.com

I have decided to go ahead and order over 600 sq ft of teak plus 14 steps from Braizilian Direct,Since late June I have been talking or emailing a Lady name Shannon ,Shannon has answered everone of my emails fast and sometime very early and late at night.I promise to give only the facts as it unfolds and to come back in a 6 month and a year to give updates on how the teak is working out .
Shannon has sent me information on how to procced once the truck arrives at my home and i intend to follow each and ever step that Shannon told me too.only common sense..My email is below and I will give honest answer to anyone whom emails me.
If the Teak is good I will tell you if it is bad I will also tell you.but i will not lie just the truth.I have not spoken to anyone on the phone at Brazilian Direct just emails
Thank everone for the time to read this when the teak is ordered this week I will post it here..I did contact an unhappy customers of Brazilian direct this week end and never heared anything thing back from that customer.As of now I will give Shannon an A+ George


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RE: Reviews : Brazilian direct - http://www.brazilianhardwood.com

I place my order today with Brazilian Direct for 705 feet of Brazilian Teak .the order should arrive this Monday or Tuesday.I was advise to take photo inside the truck and of each damage box and to email Brazilian Direct about damage and they would deal with it.
Also I got information on installing it ..
And a letter saying (DO NOT INSTALL IF WOOD IS DEFECT TO CONTACT US ASAP..)
Moisture has to be withing a certain % of the sub floor and the teak.As of now Brazilian Direct has sent a lot of information to me and answered ever email I sent since last of June this 2013 to now even on weekends and at night.So now we wait on the delivery and see what shape it is in and etc.Thank each and everone for reading this ..George


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RE: Reviews : Brazilian direct - http://www.brazilianhardwood.com

After reading prior reviews I was very cautious about my dealings with Brazilian Hardwood. I spoke with Nicole several times and had a dozen email exchanges if not more. Finally I ended up buying almost 1000sf of 3/4 inch prefinished 5" tigerwood that I was installing myself. Now that my floor is done I can tell you that I could not be more pleased with my choice of floors or companies to deal with. Delievery was quick and as scheduled. Product was first rate and I'll be back to deal with them should I have any other hardwood flooring need. Thank you to Nicole and whoever else handled my order.

Here is a link that might be useful: Brazilian Hardwood


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RE: Reviews : Brazilian direct - http://www.brazilianhardwood.com

My order from Brazilian Direct for 700 feet of brazilian teak was delivered today.The teak was very well wrap and package.I open 2 boxes of teak and the floor is super nice .40% sheen level.Shannon at Brazilian Direct never failed to answer my endless emails and so far everthing that shannon has said has been true.But the install is 3 weeks out but for now Brazilian Direct has a happy customer and I will be ordering more teak from them.


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RE: Reviews : Brazilian direct - http://www.brazilianhardwood.com

My Teak flooring from Brazilian Direct is starting it 2nd week sitting in the rooms. My installer will start on the 10/21/13. Also I got an email that my trim and stair noseing were ship out by UPS..
I will keep this going and hope my experience will help some one. George


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RE: Reviews : Brazilian direct - http://www.brazilianhardwood.com

My trim and stair nosing came by UPS .
There is two bad pieces in the box. I took a picture of them email the pictures to Shannon at Brazilian Direct.
I received an email from Brazilian Direct that The bad trim would be replace with new ones.


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RE: Reviews : Brazilian direct - http://www.brazilianhardwood.com

Today my 2 pieces of trim came by UPS to replace the 2 that were bad
No hassle from Brazilian Direct about replacing the two bad stair nosing. Just fast service in 5 business days. Installing the teak will start Monday and we see how this works out. George


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RE: Reviews : Brazilian direct - http://www.brazilianhardwood.com

Our experience with Brazilian Direct and Dan Cosgrove was outstanding in all respects. We chose 4" Brazilian Teak (Cumaru). Many photos really do not do this stuff justice. It has an incredible warmth and richness, with wonderful variations across many medium tones.

We ordered some 600 square feet - 4" width - to make sure we had a good amount of overage for our diagonal install, and could also afford to skip pieces that were overly short or too light.

Note: VERY few pieces were "too light" for our taste. The quality of the material is just first rate. We gave it PLENTY of time to acclimate, several months actually. Every board was true to width - exactly 4".

I'm not saying that Sam didn't have issues. But he should certainly have stopped the install immediately upon finding them. 5" wide material is VERY wide. It needs a full acclimatization period, with proper climate control. And that climate control must be continued, if one isn't willing to let a natural product do what it is going to do.

This post was edited by jefferson17 on Sat, May 3, 14 at 17:56


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RE: Reviews : Brazilian direct - http://www.brazilianhardwood.com

We have the master bedroom done , we had zero waste except for the cuts that were made. The Teak is very well milled same size lots of long boards a few boards like 12 inches but not many at all. Color is outstanding. The joints are very fine very tight almost invisible. As of now I give this room a ten. I ordered ten percent for waste or bad wood but looks like I might have a few boxes left over. So now I want to see if this teak gaps or not. 2 inche cheats. Were used with felt paper under .thanks to Shannon George


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RE: Reviews : Brazilian direct - http://www.brazilianhardwood.com

We have painted the rooms as we went before the teak was installed
I really do not know how to describe this floor, it adds a richness and more elegant to the rooms.
It just feels different.The teak matches all the stain wood in our house and the wood furniture. This is one floor that we really love pictures do not do it justice neither does a sample piece
Nothing shows how fine this wood is until it is install. We had almost 0 waste all fitted together very tight and still is. Now we are thinking of ordering 1300 more sq feet for our kitchen and dinning room. I would give Brazilian Direct and Shannon an A+ on this floor.


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RE: Reviews : Brazilian direct - http://www.brazilianhardwood.com

My teak floor is in its 5 month so far everything is still great. The wood seams are tight no cupping of the teak. Everyone who sees it loves it. I do watch my humidity level and adjust the HVAC to control the levels on moisture in the air. My highest was around 45% but the teak seem ok with this lowest is 29% this February average humidity ranges 38%. We are perfect happy with this floor from Brazilian Direct. It is everything that Shannon said it would be. Again almost no waste on this wood ,,waste came from the install cutting etc. George


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RE: Reviews : Brazilian direct - http://www.brazilianhardwood.com

I purchased the exact same product that samburnell is complaining about. There is one major difference. I followed the directions provided by the flooring company and reinforced by Nikki Pasquini and Dan Cosgrove.
It is essential to properly acclimate the flooring and just as important to work with an installer that is skilled enough to know if the product is ready to be installed. The result was a magnificent transformation of four rooms with 5" solid brazilian walnut. The look is absolutely breathtaking. No gaps. Nothing but consistent, beautiful, rich colors of brazilian walnut flooring. I sent photos to Brazilian Direct with a thank you note for their assistance in the process. I sincerely hope they will post the pictures for all to see.

Sam, if you and your floor installer had checked the flooring before proceeding, you would have noticed the fact that 50 percent of the planks had width problems. So don't begin installation. The instructions clearly state to call Brazilian Direct if you see any problems whatsoever.

Brazilian Direct is a fabulous supplier of great hardwood flooring. It's simply wrong to disparage a fine Company like this just because you screwed the pooch.


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RE: Reviews : Brazilian direct - http://www.brazilianhardwood.com

I purchased the exact same product that samburnell is complaining about. There is one major difference. I followed the directions provided by the flooring company and reinforced by Nikki Pasquini and Dan Cosgrove.
It is essential to properly acclimate the flooring and just as important to work with an installer that is skilled enough to know if the product is ready to be installed. The result was a magnificent transformation of four rooms with 5" solid brazilian walnut. The look is absolutely breathtaking. No gaps. Nothing but consistent, beautiful, rich colors of brazilian walnut flooring. I sent photos to Brazilian Direct with a thank you note for their assistance in the process. I sincerely hope they will post the pictures for all to see.

Sam, if you and your floor installer had checked the flooring before proceeding, you would have noticed the fact that 50 percent of the planks had width problems. So don't begin installation. The instructions clearly state to call Brazilian Direct if you see any problems whatsoever.

Brazilian Direct is a fabulous supplier of great hardwood flooring. It's simply wrong to disparage a fine Company like this just because you screwed the pooch.


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RE: Reviews : Brazilian direct - http://www.brazilianhardwood.com

I purchased the exact same product that samburnell is complaining about. There is one major difference. I followed the directions provided by the flooring company and reinforced by Nikki Pasquini and Dan Cosgrove.
It is essential to properly acclimate the flooring and just as important to work with an installer that is skilled enough to know if the product is ready to be installed. The result was a magnificent transformation of four rooms with 5" solid brazilian walnut. The look is absolutely breathtaking. No gaps. Nothing but consistent, beautiful, rich colors of brazilian walnut flooring. I sent photos to Brazilian Direct with a thank you note for their assistance in the process. I sincerely hope they will post the pictures for all to see.

Sam, if you and your floor installer had checked the flooring before proceeding, you would have noticed the fact that 50 percent of the planks had width problems. So don't begin installation. The instructions clearly state to call Brazilian Direct if you see any problems whatsoever.

Brazilian Direct is a fabulous supplier of great hardwood flooring. It's simply wrong to disparage a fine Company like this just because you screwed the pooch.


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RE: Reviews : Brazilian direct - http://www.brazilianhardwood.com

I got 600 sq ft of Brazilian Cherry solid 3/4 and started gluing today. I opened 4 boxes.
I found width of some of them slightly different from others.
and one is warped too much to use.
I will update as I finish my job.


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RE: Reviews : Brazilian direct - http://www.brazilianhardwood.com

James why put the floor down if it is defected ? I am sure Braizilian Direct will make it right. My teak floor is just great.


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RE: Reviews : Brazilian direct - http://www.brazilianhardwood.com

This is almost a year since I ordered my teak floor from Brazilian Direct the floor is still looking great and have not cracked or anything yet. Looks the same as when it was first install. Yes We would order this floor again .We still love this Teak Floor.


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RE: Reviews : Brazilian direct - http://www.brazilianhardwood.com

Can somebody share how much did it cost them per sqft for these flooring?


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RE: Reviews : Brazilian direct - http://www.brazilianhardwood.com

Pdxkit this is the email to the lady i dealt with Shannon@brazilianhardwood.com. She be happy to answe u question


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RE: Reviews : Brazilian direct - http://www.brazilianhardwood.com

This marks 12 months of having the Brazilian Teak that I got from Brazilian Direct.
The teak is still doing just great it has not separated at all and no dents or dings on it from the pets and moving furniture around. We did order online from BD because the prices here in Cincinnati area is way too high.Ever thing Shannon over at BD told me was true. I waited 4 months a bit long for the wood to set in our home a profession installed was used with 15 lbs. felt under the wood. My subfloor was a bit over ten years old. At first after the teak was installed I worried about the humidity level in our home tried to keep it around 35% after a few months of fighting with the humidity we said the heck with it let the teak do what it wants too then we just kept the home at a comfortable level for us. temp around 69 degrees in summer and 70 to 71 degrees in winter. And the teak flooring has not moved at all no gaps in it joints are tight.
We clean the floor with vinegar and water making sure it is dry. We have also use product by Bruce flooring called hardwood cleaner that works good also.
but 12 months later I would install this floor again it is an amazing product that goes with almost ever thing from our furniture to our stained wood baseboards and doors.
On my order there was almost no waste in fact only waste was what the installer cut off the ends etc.. I would give the teak and BD a 10 star rating.. I will keep updating on this wood so new buyers will have something to go by. Happy Holidays and Merry Christmas to all

This post was edited by geo4 on Mon, Nov 24, 14 at 13:12


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