Some things to think about when purchasing engineered flooring. The thickness of the face veneer is directly related to the quality. It can run from 1/12" to 1/4", 1/4" being best. Flat cut looks better than rotary cut. A high gloss will show scratches more than a semi gloss finish. I was going to say how to "screen" and refinish a floor but then, naaaaa.

I don't think Mohawk makes a solid wood floor. I think it is all engineered, and a floating click glues design.

Things change so fast in this industry, I could be wrong.

boxers: thanks so much for all of your great info...

we are having red oak put down throughout our house renovation...our floor guy is planning on 2 coats of oil based finish throughout the house, with 3 coats in the kitchen - how does this sound to you? thanks

How about some VERY basics. What are the top things to look for when selecting oak? We go to the store an see a million variations ranging in price from $5 sq ft to $10. There are name brands (Bruce, Cloumbia etc) and then those 'specials' with no recognizable name (at least to us) The specials are always cheaper. The salesperson did not seam to care what we chose explaining they are all about the same. So again, what are the top things to look for when selecting an oak finished floor?

Wow, sorry to see this thread ended early this year. I learned a lot reading it. If anyone checks back in: We are moving to a new house and will put in wood floors on the main level. I have Brazilian Walnut in my house now (which we love - look gorgeous after 4 years), but our new house has a more casual, woodsy, feel. I am considering prefinished Hickory - either "character" or " handscraped". It is 2400 square feet, including a very open family room dining room area. Has anyone experience with hickory? What would be a reasonable price to pay for installed prefinished?

Bump

Boxers,

I have a different question for you. It seems everybody is asking about engineered floors, but I've actually already purchased a thin solid wood and I'm already a little skeptical. I posted this on it's own, but I thought maybe it should go here.

I don't think you signed up for this much work, but if you're still around, I'd love to hear what you have to say.

Here's my post:

I am installing Timberland solid wood 5/16" tavern grade Cherry Maple in my condo this weekend. I've been told that it will be OK to glue directly to the slab. I got the 2 1/4" x 5/16" solid wood. It's acclimating right now and the wood looks great. Most board seem to have inconsistent color, but laying it out, it looks great.

For the price I am very happy right now, but mildly concerned as far as how it will install and hold up.

I am having it installed by a legit sub for $1/square (I will provide the glue). I've seen the guy's work several times and I trust him. I understand he'll need a higher end glue, but he's trying to find some cheap (leftover from another job).

Very interested to hear any suggestions. Are there any red-flags I should look for? Will it be OK without a vapor barrier?

Thanks in advance!

$1 a foot!!! Woo Hoo!!!

I see a cupped floor in your future!! Has anyone mentioned a properly applied moisture barrier membrane to you??? It is basically mandatory under a solid over concrete.

Are you serious... $1 a foot?

I hope this isn't the "you get what you pay for" syndrome!
I have not installed a gluedown wood for $1 a foot... Ever.
It was $1.25 a foot back in the early 70's

OK,

It's been a few days. I've been doing my homework, but still hearing different things.

Floorguy, Yes, I know $1 a square is ridiculously cheap. Let's just say I used the term "legit" sub loosely. I would classify the guy as "labor," so I wasn't expecting any real warranty on the work... hey there's no warranty on the wood, so I'm going to eat it if the floors cup. I understand that. If I go to a legit flooring co., they're gonna blame it on the wood anyway, right? But, I've seen this guy's work several times and I really do trust him.

By the way, things didn't work out with the sub. His boss caught wind of it and nixed it - quoted me $2.50...It's a long story, but he really was going to do it for $1.00 - keep in mind, I was at least buying the glue, so that works out to $1.60-$1.80 anyway.

Either way, I'm doing these myself now.

So, I did the moisture test by duct-taping plastic down and found no condensation. The slab appears to be in good shape - dry and flat. Wood has been inside now for 4 days. Humidity has been pretty average for my area.

Floorguy - As of right now I'm not planning on using MVP or any vapor barrier...I am going to use Bostik's BST.

Floorguy, if you really feel that strongly that a vapor barrier is absolutely necessary, then I'll give it more thought, but most of the people that I've spoken with said if I don't have a moisture problem, then they would not use it. Isn't bostik's pretty good as a moisture barrier in itself?

Interested to hear what you have to say.

Thanks

I'm bumping this one to the top so that boxer's good post can be seen again, and so I can find out if jridgeway installed his floor and how it came out.

The owner of the wood flooring store where we bought many of our supplies told us that the Mannington glue forms it's own moisture barrier. Our friend who installs told us the same and also suggested the Bostick's. We ended up using some of each over the course of our (almost) whole house install over slab. That was 2004 and the floor still looks and feels wonderful. We had a good moisture test in all areas before install.

Red

The adhesive might have some moisture barrier properties in a thick build on the concrete, like MVP does. But your using a notched trowel. The notches scrape the cement with a fine smear, and then leaves ridges. Your not building the consistent mil thickness for the adhesive to be an effective moisture barrier.

Before MVP, Bostiks suggested to coat with BEST and let it slump and cure. BEST slumps just like MVP does, it doesn't hold its trowel ridges. Then aftyer cure, to use Best to glue the wood down. This builds a mil thickness just like MVP.

I didn't see this till today so sorry. Bruce developed using a thinner solid hardwood with Natural Reflections. I know they changed the name since I've been there and there have copycat solid thinner flooring. Timberland is usually Bruce's cabin or tavern grade brand. Most of it has shading issues not related to wear or durability. While there is no warranty, we used to warrant that it was installable wood but you may have to cull bad boards etc. We generally recommended a urethane mastic which is made by Bostiks so floorbuy is correct.
Thanks Redbezel for your compliment. It may be better to copy and repost this cause after 85plus responses its harder to scan down to see any new questions.

So much has changed in hardwood since I posted this and then left the industry. So many companies have gone to imported woods, its very hard now to even get information let alone compare different brands. There is still something to be said by buying from a name brand as it least the comany will back the product. Warranty issues are very different than performance issues which no one warrants against. Complaints on this forum dealing with denting, scratching, dogs, water continue to lead so a certain amount of forewarning is necessary. My advice still stands on those issues.

boxers,

What are the most interesting new products you've seen in the past couple of years?

For a cement floor that is in a townhouse that was built on preserved wetlands, would you go with a thinner solid wood, an engineered wood (what wear level?) or a thick 1/2" laminate? The floor with be in a home office with heavy furniture on top and heavy file cabinets and a few little dogs that live with me in my office (I am in my office so much since there is where my computer is) and many visitors.

Laminate is going to be the best surface of the choices given, for the busy environment you say it is going to be. Bad thing is, laminate doesn't like real heavy stuff(psi) sitting opposite from each other across the installation.

Thank you Floorguy for letting me know. We are so lucky to have you on this forum. I wish you lived in North Jersey to help me with my floor and I would hire you to do my downstairs. I am now thinking of putting the wood or laminate also in my family room that really connects to my living room/dining room office but is blocked by putty file cabinets.

Hello,
I had the Robbins Huntington Plank by Armstrong in my last home and I absolutely loved it!
I purchased approx 1000 foot of Huntington for my new home in November. Immediately I noticed it didn't look right, there was what I now know as extreme over wood, the dealer I purchased the flooring from turned in a claim with Armstrong and for the longest time Armstrong only wanted to sand the floor down as they found much less of the floor was affected than what I believed to be so. After the dealer fighting on my behalf for months Armstrong relented and allowed for a complete replacement. You could see when the boards were loose, placed and laying on a table/countertop that once the boards fit together the milling was off.
When the dealer scheduled and came to remove and replace the wood, it came to installing the new floor and I was still not happy, the floor remained troublesome. The distributor/manufaturer allowed my dealer to pick up double the amount of flooring needed and the dealers technician is hand selecting the better boards and installing them piece by piece. I still wouldn't say I'm happy with the floor!! It's just not perfectly flat like I remember my previous floor being! The dealer and distributor representitives have said the floor is as close to perfect as it gets and that it is well within industry standards for overwood tolerences. That inspections are supposed to be done from a standing position? Can you please give me the exact specifications on the industry standard for overwood on the Armstrong/Robbins Huntington plank? As the dealer is going to want me to pay my balance and I want to make sure the floor is manufacturered and installed correctly before doing so. I've read where different flooring products have different specifications on overwood tolerence. Please let me know what Robbins/Armstrongs are for the Huntington Plank. Thank You in advance for your speedy reply!

The tolerance for over wood is set by the mill, unless they are a NOFMA certified mill.

Armstrong/Bruce/Hartco/Robbins, are all the same flooring. They have there own set of standards, they mill to, compared to the quality manufacturers.

.012 is what most mills spec overwood to be.

What a very informative and interesting topic. We will be installing hardwood floors in our retirement home next spring so I've just started gathering information. The new flooring will be in the dining room, two hallways, foyer, great room and hopefully the kitchen/breakfast nook.

Boxers, just curious what brand/type/color hardwoods you installed in your kitchen? Trying to convince hubby...I want hardwoods, he wants tile, LOL.

Dee

I had to use unfinished since I was blending the kitchen with the existing hardwood. Blending prefinished would be more difficult. There have been some changes since I first wrote that article. So much hardwood is imported its very hard to get any kind of idea what the finish, wearlayer, and general info is hard to get. Everyone is importing some wood so even the 'name' brands don't mean all that much like even a few yrs back.

Thanks "Boxers" -- I have read all your threads and have few questions:
1. Does 'engineered' mean 'prefinished'? I thought prefinished was solid hardwood throughout with a finish (aluminum oxide?) applied at factory, and engineered merely a veneer of hardwood atop 'other stuff'.
2. Is Luan a dependable substance for subfloor over exising plywood?
3. In prefinished, is there less chance of buckling, cupping, cracking with the 3/4" thickness over the 3/8".

We are awaiting TOTAL replacement of Bellawood Braz.Chestnut 6 mos. old, due to buckling, cracking, and cupping-- but is the fault in installation or perhaps in inadequate drying/milling time. If we replace w/ same, are the chances equal for a second disaster. (installer/retailer replacing at their cost entirely)
Thanks much-

you can get engineered in unfinished or factory finished. Prefinished can be either a solid or engineered. Why would you use luan over plywood? Is it a nail or glue down floor? Are you floating it? Engineered is usually more stable than a solid so I'd expect less movement. Buckling or cupping is a moisture issue mostly or lack of acclimation normally. Its usually not wood related but indicates a problem in the environment. There shouldn't be more than 4% difference in moisture between the wood your installing and the subfloor.

What wood floors have the fewest grains? Is it a no-no to stain maple flooring?
Thanks

I have natural oak hardwood floors on the entire main floor of my home - except the kitchen. They were finished on-site, likely 20 - 25 years ago, and haven't lost their gleam despite heavy traffic and water spills.
I adore them.

I want to put hardwood floors in my kitchen, (I don't care about matching with the rest of the home) however I'm having a hard time deciding whether to go with solid unfinished or solid prefinished.

Everyone says you can't seal prefinished hardwood with urethane/varithane, or that it would invalidate the warranty.
Is that true with all prefinished solid hardwood?

The quotes I've been getting for installing unfinished hardwoods in my 14.25' x 8.25' kitchen have been astounding, some as high as $2500 after taxes (here in Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada). Not something I can afford.

Meanwhile, I can pick up the prerequsite amount of prefinished flooring, rent a nailer, and install it myself for 1/4 of the cost. But if I can't seal the seams, it's no good in a kitchen.

Advice, experiences, anyone?

4 years ago, we installed an "engineered" unfinished wood floor. The Solid wood is 5/8" on top of a core that is made from 9 layers of faster-growing plantation grown Birch. The floor was made by Owens (now out of business) but we are having a new area done (bedrooms) and going with Shamrock. A link is attached.
Our floor is red oak, though other woods are available. We went with 3" and other widths are available.
I wanted a "rugged" look and love the wider widths but could not afford the higher price. Our floor is hand scraped on site, stained and urethaned on site.
I LOVE my floors. These replaced shiny 1/8" veneer word floors that went to pot very quickly, as far as finish goes.
With these floors, when you get a scrape or ding, I grab my black marker or furniture pen and it only adds to the charactrer of the floor. I will try to upload some photos. My house is ecclectic. Silk couch, leather and stud chairs, balck laquer piano, tapestry, scraped up floors!
Just 3 weeks ago, our interior hot water heater decided to unload nearly all of its contents. A portion of the floor was under water for an hour. It was cleaned up as soon as discovered and the drying out fans placed on it within 12 hours. Not one single board popped, cupped, nor did the finish get damaged. Even the salesman from the store I origianly purchased from came out to check for damage for insurance.
The carpet did not fare so well and we are now going into those rooms with this wood.
If you have slab, I cant think of a better product if you have good installers who do a great job with the floor leveling compound and glue down. My folks have solid hardwood on pier & beam as we did in a former house and the subfloor is always going to have creaks in it. Especailly when you are trying to tip toe.
The shamrock also comes prefinished.

Here is a link that might be useful: Shamrock Flooring

Photos of finish on site 5/8" red oak veneer engineered wood floor.
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Thinking that you can put a coat of urethane on any flooring and create an 'impervious' moisture barrier is simply wrong. Any flooring, unfinished or prefinished will have movement and cracks will appear between boards. Unless you have a 'flood' small spills etc won't affect wood flooring. The advantage is that if you had a problem with prefinished you could simply replace the affected boards without resanding the entire room.

Hello...is this thread still active??

I've read some of it but it's quite overwhelming. Our home is on a slab...we live in the south, cajun country, where it's humid. I want to replace the carpet in our family room and hall with wood flooring.

It's confusing. One of my neighbors (home on slab) has wood floors that she says were site finished 25 years ago. Another friend says that's not a good option, that we should go with engineered wood. Or prefinished solid wood.

I don't want a dark floor.
I don't want a glossy floor.
I don't want laminate. Husband put that in our master bdrm 4 years ago and I don't like it...it's like walking on plastic.

No pets now but will get a cat next year...still mourning our 16 yr. old cat that we had to put to sleep 2 months ago. Our children are grown but grandgirls visit sometimes.

Any suggestions? Thanks for any advice.

Here you go. Quite a few ways to go but for affordability, performance, and simplicity..go with an engineered real hardwood. Have it glued down. Have it professionally installed by the store and testing for slab moisture, acclimating the wood, and explaining how to enforce the inside humidity levels so the wood performs properly. It really will not be difficult. Budget 12 bucks a foot or so. It could be less and dont waiver from having it professionally done. Prefinished engineered wood. Tell them you dont want junk. Good Luck

I hope engineered will give me that wood feel and look. I don't want bevels. They look nice but cleaning them seems to be a pain. No getting down on hands and knees to clean the crevices...that ship has sailed. And I will absolutely have it professionally installed.

Thanks for responding.

Any one know anything about Bruce/Armstrong American Treasures HICKORY???

Hi

I am looking at buying Engineered Walnut with a Titanium Finish for my entire reno project. What is the advantage of the Titanium Finish and does it increase the Janka Rating?

Thanks

Cathy

We are getting ready to buy a house that has Bruce gunstock flooring in kitchen and dining room and want to extend wood flooring throughout rest of the house, but my concern is the wood scratching, and would like an opinion on another wood floor that would match it but not have the scratching worries. Also I used to have a flooring called rustic revival, I don't know if it still exists and would it even match the gunstock if it does.

Thank you for your advice!

Gunstock is/was a color offered in more than one pattern or type of flooring offered by Bruce. And you would be better off starting a new thread than digging up a 6 year old post with 100+ reply's, you will more than likely get more people apt to look at your post and or respond.

I looked.

You could always put some unfinished in and have both areas sanded and finished. This job had a beveled gunstock stained dining room with an older square edge floor that connected. Sanded flat with a color of their choice, the customer was delighted.

Rustic revival? Is it the color you're more interested in or the grade (character etc)

There are all sorts of options with a good professional.

Gunstock is what the owner said it is, I believe that's the color. Rustic revival was the character of the floor. It looks beat up with pits, etc right from factory. It was beautiful and practical.

I am looking at mannington mountainview engineered flooring which is a hickory. Will the color lighten or darken over time.

I just purchased 3/4" x 6" engineered oak hand scraped and distressed flooring with a matte finish. I stopped the installer from laying down the entire floor because I noticed that the planks had a matte finish but the bevels in between the planks were shiny...looks like water was in between every plank. The sales rep for the company who makes the flooring came by and told me that this was normal. He said it was aluminum oxide and it was to protect the flooring and that it was there because the wood was actually hand scraped by a person and not a machine. He also said that it would be impossible for the person to scrape the shine off the bevels by hand. He said it would dull over time with wear and cleaning. He said this is something that one should expect with high end flooring where each piece was unique and hand scraped. I told him that I would not have purchased this product if the shine was on the sample that I saw when I chose the flooring. He said the sample could have been old. I have been trying to find some information online to help me to understand this and I came across your blog. Would you be able to comment on this for me? I've asked the sales rep to take my complaint to a higher level in the company because I feel like I was mislead. I wanted a matte finish. I don't want to have to try explain to others that the shine in between the planks is part of the finish that was not scraped off. If you tell me that this is perfectly normal and acceptable I will be more accepting of the sales rep's explanation.

Thank you

This doesn't solve your problem, carol151, but it has been suggested by others that once you've selected your flooring, order one box before ordering the entire amount needed. It never occurred to me that the bevels on a matte-finished floor would be shiny! But I have noticed that sample boards are not indicative of the actual product and can't be relied upon.

It's the lighting angle in my opinion. In the picture above, the light is reflecting off a 45 degree angle on the bevels. If you put one board with the same 45 degree angle into the picture with the same primary light position hitting it you'd see have a shinier appearance.

Try it for yourself. I could be wrong but...

Ken Fisher

thank you jellytoast and Ken for commenting. I did what you said Ken and the one piece of wood is of course shinier when held in the same light but the shine in the bevelled areas is definitely from a product that makes it look like water is in between the planks when the lights are on. The only way you don't see the glitter is when there is absolutely no lighting.

I guess the last layer of finish didn't cover the beveled areas as it was supposed to. I was told when visiting a flooring mill that the finish sheen level under the top coat was much higher.

I would love to visit this company's manufacturing plant and see how the labourers hand scrape the wood, taking off the aluminum oxide and leave the aluminum oxide on the bevelled areas...just does not make any sense to me and I can't find anyone on the internet who has had the same problem.

The phenomenon you see in the picture looks like the way the angle of the bevel reflects light so I assume you're not referring to that. Perhaps you can take a sample piece and post a picture of the surface and a separate one of just the bevel. The only remedies I can think of would be to either carefully apply a matching satin finish to the bevels or apply a coat of finish over the whole floor. Another remedy would be to carefully abrade the bevel with the proper grade of nylon pad, steel wool or bronze wool.
I'm not sure what the rep told you. Either you misunderstood them or they're talking nonsense. What brand is the floor? Did the sample have a matte finish?

Thanks so much for taking the time to write. Yes the sample was large and it did have a matte finish. Hand scraped and distressed. You're right I'm not talking about the reflection from the light. The floors look fine in the dark. When I turn the lights on it looks like streams of water all over the floor in between the matte finished planks. You can actually feel the difference between the matte finish and the shiny finish in some areas where there's more of it. You can also see this sparkle in the deeper hand scraped areas where if they sanded anymore it would have gone too deep. See photo below. Here is another photo that I just took of one of the pieces right out of the box. You can only see the shine in one area because of the light on the ceiling but the stain or whatever it is, covers the whole length.

We did try to sand the bevels gently on a piece that was not installed and it took the finish off the matte as well as the area is so tiny to work with. We might try to find a stain to match. I never thought of that remedy. Thanks again for writing.

I see it! I have a crazy idea. Years ago I looked at a floor that had a bunch of X marks on boards next to a carpet. The installer had made pencil marks then erased them, dulling the finish. Perhaps your bevels could be dulled down using on of those big pink erasers with the pointed ends.

Are you sure you want to go through all of this? Any alterations to the product is going to void any warranty you may have, but what's a warranty? It's really not much unless the engineered product delaminates or worse.

"is part of the finish that was not scraped off."

I don't get that one. It runs through a series of finishing stations and that's that.

Ken Fisher

After reading this entire thread I've decided to go with wood-look tile, lol.

I read all the comments here and still don't have any idea what to look for with a prefinished oak. I'm considering the greats lakes brand from Menards, but have also looked at carpet ones 50 year warrantied wood. Other than 3.55 a sqft, what is the difference in quality? Both are 3/4 thick, 2 1/4 strip, select grade.

Regarding fading...Can organic_donna or anyone comment on how well Mirage Floors UV protection works? We have newly installed Mirage Walnut hardwood with a cashmere finish in the medium/dark Savanna color. We have large view windows in our Great Room that we cannot cover completely and prefer not to have window coverings anyway but we're a bit concerned about the possibility of the wood color fading as the room faces East and gets direct sunlight in the morning. Our windows are Low E and Mirage does have UV protection but we're wondering if that's enough protection over time. Can anyone give any feedback on their experience regarding Mirage and/or Low E glass? We do have friends who have Mirage Red Oak in a room with south facing French doors without window coverings, and after many years in place it's still impossible to see any difference in the floor color when comparing the rug covered areas to areas of exposed hardwood. This was so impressive to us that we went with Mirage in part for their UV protection. Now with our new flooring in place we're wondering if their experience was typical and if our Walnut will hold up as well, or if it's best we find some way to cover those windows, at least in times of direct sun. Any comments or advice anyone?