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secondofangle

wood stove installation/chimney question

secondofangle
18 years ago

got a used one on the net locally for $500 (deluxe model - $2400 new - catalytic, blower, etc.) I don't really NEED it for heating, but I actually enjoy cutting firewood, have access to a free supply, and like the feel and smell of wood.

So I quickly learn that to install a SS through the roof chimney will be $2000-3000 with an 8 week lead time (I live in a large midwestern city). Nix that.

Fortunately, I recently replaced an old gas furnace with a new PVC vented one, so I now have the furnace chimney in the basement (alongside the fireplace chimney) open.

So what I'm considering doing is getting the chimney inspected. If it's in relatively good shape, I might just use it this season without a liner, and have one installed in the summer when all the chimney sweep companies are starving for business.

Thoughts, anyone?

Comments (24)

  • rick2752
    18 years ago

    They also sell the pipe at Tractor Supply. Duravent is what they carry I think. You may be able to do it yourself. Might check into that route.

  • jocelynj
    18 years ago

    As long as your original lining is in good condition you should be good to use the stove without a ss liner for a season. However, don't be surprised if companies in your area aren't starving for business in the summer and therefore prices may not necessarily be less than what you were quoted - I assumed that is why you will wait until summer, I apologize if I'm wrong.

  • secondofangle
    Original Author
    18 years ago

    Hi, thanks for the replies. I forgot to mention in the original post that I've been quoted $2400-2600 to install a SS LINER in my existing chimney. I think that's quite pricey. You are correct in thinking that I"m thinking that in the summer it might be cheaper.

    But also, I'm thinking: I get the wood for free, and got the stove cheap, and I don't really NEED to heat with wood, so I don't really want to pay $$$ for a liner when I have a perfectly functional chimney, and nobody can say for sure BEFORE I even try it, that I won't get away with venting it direct w/o a liner.

    So maybe I should just forget the liner and get an annual inspection. If at any time there is deterioration of the terracotta liner or buildup of excessive creosote, then I should consider getting a liner.

    Also, I'm not sure how long I"m going to be in this house...

    Thanks for the suggestions!!!

  • Xanndra
    18 years ago

    Just to let you know, this type of "installation" has a high incident of chimney fires. It is not recommended by any stove manufacturer.

    Here is a link that might be useful: reline

  • secondofangle
    Original Author
    18 years ago

    Xanndra,

    As a medical researcher, I'm curious to know what you consider a "high incidence" of chimney fires? High compared to what? And what is your reference and what data were used and how was the incidence rate determined? A rate must have as the numerator the number of events and as the denominator the number AT RISK PER UNIT TIME, i.e., number of households usiing a chimney for a given time period.

    It is also said that there is a high rate of x-mas tree fires each year, but you don't see folks abandoning trees OR lights.

    So, I guess I'm suspicious that this "need" for liners is not at least in part a concoction of the sweep industry - you know - big bucks.

    And, one could imagine that if chimney fires are less likely with liners that it might not be due to the liner itself. Let's say, for example, that liners are more likely to be installed by wealthy, or intelligent people, or by those with newer homes, or by those who use fireplaces less often, or those who are generally more safety conscious or who also buy safer wood burners. So, when you look at rates of chimney fires, it looks like the liner protected them, but in reality is was some other factor that BOTH protected them AND caused them to GET the liner in teh first place

    If you're interested in these issues, you can look here:

    Here is a link that might be useful: confounding in epidemiology

  • secondofangle
    Original Author
    18 years ago

    Xanndra,

    Do you happen to know what a "good" price is for installation of an approximately 25' liner? The roof is steep (and has snow on it), so it will need to be done with ladders and/or scaffolding.

    Is this somethhing I can do my self?

    If I could get it done for Thanks!

  • Xanndra
    18 years ago

    When I say "high incidence" I do not know of any scientific numbers to back me up, only field experience.

    Here's what usually happens--(What I call the ghetto/hillbilly method)

    *Homeowner sticks a stove/insert in and doesn't reline it. Stuffs some insulation around a short pipe to keep a draft from coming in. Wow! That was easy and cheap! HA!

    *Smoke cools down quickly in the oversized chimney causing creosote to form in large quantities. Many times a tarry creosote forms which cannot be brushed out and is highly flammable.

    *Homeowner cannot see up the chimney easily so its "out of sight-out of mind". Therefore, he forgets to pull it out and check it monthly. Sometimes he "forgets" to check it for years because there hasn't been anything easily visable yet.

    *Creosote not only forms in the chimney, but cakes around the short pipe in large quantities.

    *Homeowner has a chimney fire, possibly avoiding total destruction of their home.

    *Homeowner usually does not know that he has had a chimney fire until he has some sort of problem like smoke in the house.

    *Once a chimney fire has occurred, normally the clay flue tile liners are cracked and the chimney can no longer be used without an insulated liner, costing the homeowner more bling-bling than would have from the beginning because now there may be other structural damage that has to be repaired first.

    Don't know about the ramifications of the homeowner's policy and if rates will jump up.

    I have seen this scenario more times than I can count. Very rarely had I seen one that hadn't had at least one chimney fire. I will take a guess that it hovers around 90-95% which is why most chimney sweeps will not even touch one without a full liner. They don't want to be responsible for the aftermath and maintaining something that is questionable. There is a minimum that code will allow, but again most sweeps won't touch it unless it's done all the way.

  • secondofangle
    Original Author
    18 years ago

    A terra cotta liner is in place. It was Whempy's Chimney Sweeps in Columbus Ohio who told me that if there's a terracotta liner in the former gas furnace chimney, "go for it" and put it in.

    I'm a quite intelligent guy who's meticulous about home maintenance. I would NOT "forget about it", and not get an annual inspection.

    How can anyone say, until I've tried it for half a season, that I'm not going to get away Scott free with to creosote buildup in the current terracotta lined chimney?

    And is there REALLY a SUBSTANTIAL hazard to my doing this for half a season, and having the thing re-inspected this summer?

    I highly doubt that.

    I also know that in West Virginia in the community where I go hunting, EVERYBODY burns wood, NOBODY gets inspected (they can't afford it), and NOBODY is EVER ranting about chimney fires. And this is a community full of "hill jacks" who are rigging the things any old which way.

    The problem with any rule or good advice is when it is abused and overapplied to situations where exceptions exist - like those I've highlighted above.

  • jocelynj
    18 years ago

    "So, I guess I'm suspicious that this "need" for liners is not at least in part a concoction of the sweep industry - you know - big bucks."
    Well, one thing I can say is that most of the time when a liner is installed it is not as a result of the persuasion of someone in the chimney industry, but rather as a result of a very important internation fire code called the NFPA-211.
    In agreement with Xanndra's experience I have seen a higher rate of chimney fires (often with the chimney as a "victim" of multiple fires). For comparison (this is an average, not necessarily every day): for every ten chimney sweeps and inspections on open fireplaces and for every ten on unlined free-standing stoves or fireplace inserts, we will see maybe 3-5 chimney fires on the open fireplaces, and approx 7-9 of the stoves and/or inserts.
    Unfortunately it is virtually impossible to avoid creosote build up when using a stove or insert.
    Additionally - and finally, I promise an end to this post - the main reason you don't hear a lot of people "rant" about chimney fires is because - in my experience - 90-95% of homeowners who have had a chimney fire don't even know it. That is where the extreme importance of having an annual inspection comes in. We have a saying in our office "the first chimney fire only damaged the chimney, the next one could destroy your home"

    Here is a link that might be useful: Chimney Safety Institute of America

  • hobes1
    18 years ago

    Since secondofangle said it was a furnace flue I would say it would work just fine it probably is a 8x8 inch flue and being a furnace flue it should be in good shape just clean it and it would be fine Ive built many wood stove chimineys and around here we use a 8x8 flue and never had a problem just clean it once a yr and it will last .. Also if you remember int he 70s it was code at least in Durham Ct to have a furnace and a wood stove on the same flue... which is now not legal but I know old timers who are still useing them I am a retired mason and have built many in my home town and still see the people using them after 30 yrs.. just don't use insulation around the pipe use the required flue paste ..use to be asbestos but now its somthing else. And also just a little note to Xandra not being mean but I see on the post about peek aboo fireplaces I have built them and they work fine if you do it right... Its a matter of making the smoke chamber right and big enough to draw the opening most guys make it to small and thats one of the reasons they smoke.. use to make the mim 32 inchs above the smoke shelf on a reg 42inch damper.. and some made much biggerdepending on what type I was building and a few other things like where you set the angle above the opening .. so just to let you know if there built right they work....
    Hobes .....

  • secondofangle
    Original Author
    18 years ago

    My wood stove is installed and works wonderfully and drafts just fine.

    I just had it inspected by a CSIA certified chimney sweep and he says it's a fine set-up. THe terradotta 12x9" tiles are PRISTINE and shiny all the way up to the sky. He said "burn it up!"

    He agreed that all this BS about needing a liner and all is nothing but profiteering by the Sweep industry. He said just burn good clean wood and get it cleaned yearly and I'm good to go.

    HE also said that, if I really wanted it, they would install a liner for me for less than HALF of the previous profiteering quotes I received.

    This is why I look on with skepticism at everything that doesn't make good sense.

    Thanks everyone for their input!

    SOA

  • the_guad
    18 years ago

    I'm not an expert or a sweep or a salesperson, but I am a concerned homeowner. As a concerned homeowner these were the questions I asked myself when I heard about the stainless steel liners that everyone said they were required to install (either by code or by the shop owners):

    1) Was my masonry fireplace designed to have a fire in it 24x7 for weeks or months at a time? I don't think so and even if it was I don't think I'd do it.

    2) Were the tile flue liners manufactured to support the stress of having long-term burning fires at varying heat followed by cold shocks and then more long-term burns? Unknown (calling all engineers!)

    3) If a crack occured in the flue liner due to expansion/contraction, water/ice infiltration, earthquake, tornado, explosions (live near any mines/quarries?), etc. would I know before I lit my next long-term, high heat fire? Probably not until my house burned down.

    For those reasons I have to say that as a concerned homeowner I have to support Xanndra and the multitude of other professionals that I have asked about this issue and I've ordered my liner with the insert.

    I also have to say, as an aside, that I think Xanndra takes a lot of heat on these forums and I doubt it's really deserved. I would rather ignore advice I don't want to hear then attack the person trying to give it. Can't we all just get along.

    That said, best of luck in whichever configuration you go with.

  • secondofangle
    Original Author
    18 years ago

    Oh, we're not giving xandra "heat"! (but if we were, wouldn't that be fitting? Ha Ha!)

    Let's think about it a different way - do you know anybody who's had a chimney fire and sustained damage to their house? Hold that answer.

    Now, do you know anybody who's been injured in an auto accident?

    I don't know your specific answers, but I know what the statistics are for the latter, and I know that driving a car is the MOST dangerous thing a person can do, and I also know that most folks don't have an INKLING about the crash test and safety ratings of the cars they drive, unless they drive a Volvo or a monster SUV (in which latter case they can rest assured that the only person at excess risk in a crash is the rest of us! [and roll-overs]).

    All I'm trying to do is to keep this issue in the proper perspective relative to all the other risks we take each day, over and over.

    And if I really wanted to be safer in my life, I GUARANTEE that there are more important things to do with $2500 than spend it on a chimney liner.

  • bigbiggins
    18 years ago

    Hey, I just installed a flexible ss liner myself which I purchased on ebay for around 325. Took me 1/2 a day. Really simple if you are at all handy.
    http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/holinin.htm check this out.

  • jocelynj
    18 years ago

    On the comparison between a car accident and a chimney fire:
    Though most people don't know the details of crash tests and safety ratings - and driving may be the most dangerous thing to do, they regularly do what they can to prevent being involved in an accident.
    They check their oil, tire pressure, have their brakes inspected, etc. Anti-lock brakes (now a standard, I believe) used to be a oft chosen safety option.

    The same can be said of many different industries in which a potential regular risk is involved.

    But my question is this: If you had a vehicle for which a passenger side air bag was not standard but would cost extra to have one installed; but you know that if you were in an accident that airbag may prevent your passenger from being injured, wouldn't you spend the extra money for the airbag?

    I would say the same for the liner. Though you have the chimney swept every year, that doesn't prevent creosote from building up in the meantime. Even an experience user, one who uses the hardest, driest wood available will still have creosote build up. I have seen chimney fires in between annual maintainance.

    So, if you knew that if you had a chimney fire, the liner may help prevent damage to the masonry chimney as well as to your home (and the fire may not even damage the liner), wouldn't you consider spending the extra money for that peace of mind?

    Now, I'm interested that the sweep you had out agreed that "all this BS about needing a liner and all is nothing but profiteering by the Sweep industry" because as a CSIA sweep he is supposed to be familiar with NFPA-211 code requirements which speak extensively of the having the appropriate liners for appliances that have specific manufacturer requirements.

    Addtionally, those of us who have given you advice on a chimney liner have nothing to gain from suggesting you get one. I can assure you that the local professionals you spoke with are not going to pay us for encouraging you to have one installed. These suggestions were given because of our professional experience, expertise, and knowledge.

    In this situation we do need to have a perspective relative to the risks you will be taking when using your stove. Will it be used everyday? How many hours per day? For how many months? Years? How often will it be inspected based on how often you use it? Many stoves used everyday require sweeps/inspections as often as every two months.

    One last note: last year in my area there was a family who had a woodstove vented into a masonry chimney - I do not know specific details as to the condition of the chimney; whether it had a liner, when and how often it was swept/inspected - and they had a chimney fire. The fire spread to the walls and the house caught on fire. Three children were trapped in the home and were killed.
    A rare story, yes, but not altogether unheard of. Is it worth the risk?

  • the_guad
    18 years ago

    This is a great discussion. Perhaps someone can speak to the difference between the types of liner on the market (not just in terms of dollars).

  • bigbiggins
    18 years ago

    Well, stainless steel flex liner can be snaked through most chimneys which are in decent shape. A stainless steel re-lining is usually done when the chimney itself, the inner-lining, is deteriorated. The stainless liners hook directly to your insert. The flex is only used with inserts as far as I know.

  • secondofangle
    Original Author
    18 years ago

    The quote from the sweep company that came out and did my inspection said they could install a SS liner for under $1000. So if I don't do it myself, it's nice to know that this summer I can get it done for a resonable price. I mean, $2500 is JUST RIDICULOUS.

    One of the best reasons I see for a liner has been glossed over in this forum - that the 9X12 furnace liner I have has a crosssectional area of 108 inches square. THe stove flue is 6", cross sectional area about 28 inches square. The MAXIMUM suggested x-sectional area for a stove chimney is 3X the stove flue x-sectional area, so about 82 inches square. So my chimney is oversized, and it would probably draft better if it were a 6" round pipe all the way up. CUrrently the converter in my stove runs at about 1000 degrees only if I have it STUFFED with wood. Stove pipe runs just under 300 degrees. This is lower that expected. SO I suspect that I will get better draft if I downsize my chimney with a liner.

    Thanks everyone for all the input!

    Happy New Year!

  • berlin
    18 years ago

    "Were the tile flue liners manufactured to support the stress of having long-term burning fires at varying heat followed by cold shocks and then more long-term burns? Unknown (calling all engineers!)"

    yes they are, almost the only reasons flue tiles crack is because they were installed too tightly in the flue to allow for expansion and contraction, or during a chimney fire the fire department sprayed cold water on hot flue tiles.

    Contrary to much of the nonsense you continually hear on these forums, clay flue tiles are probably the best and most durable, longest-lasting liners your chimney can have.

  • jocelynj
    18 years ago

    "almost the only reasons flue tiles crack is because... during a chimney fire the fire department sprayed cold water on hot flue tiles."
    In almost every chimney fire I have seen, there has been no water sprayed in the chimney and the flues have cracked, sometimes massively. It is what's called "thermal shock" and the cracks happen when the flue catches fire and heats the cooler (or cold) chimney up too quickly.
    I agree that clay flue tiles are very durable, otherwise they would not be a code accepted lining material today. However, most stainless liners are as durable as clay tiles and when used as a replacement liner tend to be a much more cost effective method of lining the chimney as compared to rebuilding the chimney to install new clay tiles.

  • franktank232
    18 years ago

    I have the option of using an existing lined chimney, but am starting to think that maybe i'll just run new double or triple pipe through the ceiling and place the stand alone stove in the living room,

  • secondofangle
    Original Author
    18 years ago

    I too was thinking of putting the stove throught the ceiling in the family room.

    The stove I bought and put in the basement throught the existing chimney was bought from a guy who put it in a large add-on room and took it out because it was TOO HOT!

    currently, it heats my basement (>600 square foot) to 83 degrees with outside temp in the 30s, and that's with the DAMPER ALMOST completely shut.

    So I"m glad I did the basement.

    Also glad I used the existing chimney and didn't listen to the NONSENSE!

    Thanks guys!

  • onan
    17 years ago

    I just four days ago had a new woodstove/fireplace insert professionally installed in my living room. It cost me $1,200 in Maryland in the summertime-- $600 for the SS flex liner and cap and $600 labor which included sweeping the chimney, transporting the stove from the place where I brought it, cutting out the old damper frame and completely assembling and installing the unit. I thought it was kind of pricey for the amount of work involved and thought maybe I was gouged a little, but it seems like the price was pretty much in line. I bought a Regency I3100L.

    Opinions?

  • kwdeb
    15 years ago

    If you want you can do it on the cheap, but you got to be patient with your search. The Home and Hearth stores will charge you top dollar and if you don't mind paying $2700, then stop reading and go to one.

    If you want to save yourself almost half of that, know that it can be done. First, do we buy a straw hat in the summer? No, we buy one in the winter when no-one wants one and it's way cheaper. The same is true for wood-stoves.
    A decent wood stove new can range from $700-$1300. I got mine brand new on sale for $400 because this retailer was discontinuing their attempt to sell wood stoves and this was the last of two. Granted, it wasn't a top of the line Vermont Castings or Napolean, but for my small room I wanted to heat, it does just fine.

    Depending on your style, stainless steel, ceramic and cast-iron will all heat your home just fine. Check sites like Craigs List often, sometimes you can get a great deal on something a couple of years old.

    The secret is the chimney. It's got to be put together well to allow the highest perfomance with optimum air flow.

    I used reliner flex-pipe I got brand new on Craig's List for $190 for 20 feet that ran down the inside of my chimney. (usually $450-$600)

    I got a used cap for $40 and an attachment between the two for $12.

    In the fireplace to the opening in your wood stove, there needs to be a connecter from the pipe to the stove. It runs new $35 on the average at most stove shops. It may be a little hard to find used, but you never know.

    Use Craig's List if your looking for parts. A lot of times you can find them brand new and all you have to do is ask a professional to install it for you. Most of them will claim they only install their own products, but keep asking, someone will do it for you. It ususally runs about $350-$500 dollars for them to do it. If your skilled and adventurous, do it yourself for free and have the Fire Dept. inspect it. It took me and a friend three hours to install and we have been very happy with it.

    Total cost for me: $644